| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Frank, I'm sure that you imagine many conclusions are "clear" in your mind. Enjoy your delusions; that's all they are. It seems to me you trot from post to post contriving false conclusions about the statements of others while ignoring, rudely I might add, the valid points of others. I know another person who engages in debate similarly. Like you, he could never name any cause past or present where warfare was justified. Theory is nice in the classroom or up late in the dorm, but when people are being murdered, it is time for pragmatism to take hold. Most folks understand this. You do not. Sean joins the blame America first crowd. How disappointing. Only $5 for Jon's friendship? Best deal on the planet! | ||
| Blake |
Bomber, I missed your earlier post. "Two books of the bible"? My friend, there are over sixty books comprising the Bible. "also note that islam advises good treatment for "people of the book," which would be christians and jews" If you consider living as a second class citizen, a virtual slave, having to pay exorbitant taxes that muslims do not pay, submitting to most any demand that muslims make of you, being prohibited from building new churches or synagogues or even maintaining the ones in existence, having to submit to sharia law... if you consider that "good treatment", you and I don't have the same view of what good treatment entails. If good treatment is being spared having one's head sawed off then being forced to live as oppressed second class citizens under the boot of your muslim conquerers, then you are correct. You really are quite unfamiliar with the world of state sponsored islam. You are unfortunately in the clear overwhelming majority of Americans and Westerners. I challenge you to learn what d'himmitude and shari'a law are all about. Remember the armbands that the Nazi's forced Jews to wear? Under sharia law, Jews and Christians must wear identifying labels. Like I said earlier, I need not cherry pick from the koran. I only need to point out actual recent events and the actual statements of muslims themselves, many of them widely recognized and revered (among muslims) islamic leaders. Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Sudan, Indonesia... ... America? Wake up sleeping giant. Please. I ask again, do you or do you not consider adherants to a religion and its law that demands the execution of apostates as cult members? Again, my good friend Nabil cannot visit his family in Egypt. He would very much like to visit them, but he has been assured by the local townspeople there that should he show his face there, he would be summarilly executed. Why? He left islam for Christianity. Examples like this are legion. The truth is out there. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Welcome to Israel. The source of Jihad itself. And I say they should reclaim the Temple and let the Crusades on Jihad begin  | ||
| Jon |
America bashers are to be expected from outside. From inside is a conversation stopper. Frank you're so liberal you can't think straight. | ||
| Rocketman |
Blake, it's not America. It's the nutcase warmonger running America I have a problem with. Without his stupidity war in Iraq might have been avoided. It's all well and good removing an evil dictator and his merry men, but what he and they have been replaced with is far worse for the Iraqi people now, and the world is far more unstable. Add that to the soon to be 3000 American service personnel who have given their lives, for what? The Bush Dynasty. I'm not sure that's any better than Hussein's Dynasty. I'd be more impressed of Bush's actions in Iraq if he could show on his other hand a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by America, which is what 169 other countries involved in the Kyoto Agreement are doing. Perhaps you could explain why Bush, so bent on stamping out terrorism, is not willing to support Kyoto as it seems to me the issue is a healthier planet for all mankind. I know, I'm weird, but somehow I see ridding the world of terrorism similar to reducing the worlds greenhouse gasses. "The Kyoto Protocol is an agreement under which industrialised countries will reduce their collective emissions of greenhouse gases by 5.2% compared to the year 1990 (but note that, compared to the emissions levels that would be expected by 2010 without the Protocol, this target represents a 29% cut). The goal is to lower overall emissions of six greenhouse gases - carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, sulfur hexafluoride, HFCs, and PFCs - calculated as an average over the five-year period of 2008-12. National targets range from 8% reductions for the European Union and some others to 7% for the US, 6% for Japan, 0% for Russia, and permitted increases of 8% for Australia and 10% for Iceland." Rocket | ||
| Jon |
Rocket, I can accept that, except the Hussein dynasty thing. And I do believe in taking care of the earth. What we are doing to it on many levels is an abomination. (Message edited by jon on December 28, 2006) | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
The Bush Dynasty. I'm not sure that's any better than Hussein's Dynasty. Well Im glad you cant vote here. I'd be more impressed of Bush's actions in Iraq if he could show on his other hand a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by America, which is what 169 other countries involved in the Kyoto Agreement are doing. Perhaps you could explain why Bush, so bent on stamping out terrorism, is not willing to support Kyoto as it seems to me the issue is a healthier planet for all mankind. I know, I'm weird, but somehow I see ridding the world of terrorism similar to reducing the worlds greenhouse gasses. If Bush could rid the world of greenhouse gases with the Halliburton hurricane machine they have at the pentagon it still wouldnt be good enough for the peacenick crowd. He could quadruple the aid to Africa and it wouldnt do squat to persuade most black voters here in the US or abroad. He will always be hated by the left no matter how Iraq or the middle east turns out no matter how many basic human rights middle eastern women gain. Im glad there were not more of you during WW2. | ||
| Az_m2 |
"The Kyoto Protocol is an agreement under which industrialised countries will reduce their collective emissions of greenhouse gases by 5.2% compared to the year 1990 (but note that, compared to the emissions levels that would be expected by 2010 without the Protocol, this target represents a 29% cut). The goal is to lower overall emissions of six greenhouse gases - carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, sulfur hexafluoride, HFCs, and PFCs - calculated as an average over the five-year period of 2008-12. National targets range from 8% reductions for the European Union and some others to 7% for the US, 6% for Japan, 0% for Russia, and permitted increases of 8% for Australia and 10% for Iceland." How are those countries that committed to this doing? Any progress to date? | ||
| Rocketman |
The trading of Carbon Credits and the expected reductions in greenhouse gas emissions are targeted for the period 2008 - 2012 is my understanding. Rocket | ||
| Aesquire |
1. Sean is right about the jewish refugee problem after WW2. Nobody wanted them. 2. the stability of the world is an illusion. Too much telly. 3. Dear Bealzebub's tea cozy!!!! I'd rather talk about how cruel PETA is or if snails are good to eat, than get into another religious argument! Global warming. Sigh. religious arguments are futile, at times, because you deal with faith, and not reasoning. Forget about the details of sacred text. The violence in this world is caused by those who would manipulate others to do their bidding. On the happy subject of animal rights. I believe that properly reverent harvesting of our natural bounty, hunting for food, is a legitimate, properly ecological, natural good thing. Properly managed, of course, but lightly, since we are not good yet at terraforming. I think removal of pest species is good and natural. We have removed many natural predators, and populations must be controlled. I have severe misgivings about trophy hunting. If you eat your kill, I think a head or a stuffed critter is fine & beautiful. But killing a deer for it's rack, say, and wasting the rest, is wrong. what do you think? | ||
| Frankfast |
I think wearing fur is grotesque. I think the practice of using animals in laboratory experiments is despicable. I think the hate on this thread is caused by eating animal flesh. (I'm not vegetarian but am working on it) I think that the animal population is not the only one to be controlled. But I guess that's what war is for. Right? Have fun. And Happy New Year! (Message edited by frankfast on December 29, 2006) (Message edited by frankfast on December 29, 2006) (Message edited by frankfast on December 29, 2006) | ||
| Cochise |
I think wearing fur is grotesque. How does wearing leather strike you? What about those poor, unsuspecting cotton plants? I think the hate on this thread is caused by eating animal flesh. (I'm not vegetarian but am working on it) If God wanted us to be vegetarians, he wouldn't have made animals out of meat. I'm a member of PETA by the way: People Eating Tasty Animals I think that the animal population is not the only one to be controlled. But I guess that's what war is for. Right? I'll take care of the Chickens, Cows, Turkeys, Deer, all the tasty ones, you take the worms, snails, and anything else you'd like.  | ||
| Blake |
Frank, No one but you and the other rabid Bush haters are expressing hatred here. I don't hate jihadi-fascists. I just want them eradicated from the planet. BTW, don't knock the lesser critters as food; despite what my friend Joe (Cochise) says, them snails are quite tasty when sauteed with onion and dipped in garlic butter. Rocket, Tell it to the Kurds, the Marsh Arabs and the millions of Saddam's other targets of genocide. There was a very nice television ad from the Iraqi Kurds (yes paid for and created by Iraqi Kurds themselves) running over here not too long ago. They were thanking America, pretty much just like the Brits thanked us after WW-2. Very cool gesture. | ||
| Frankfast |
Cochise - I do wear leather but am looking for a proper synthetic substitute that won't harm the earth in it's manufacture. I apologize for the inconsistency in my practice. Your other comments don't deserve a response. (Message edited by frankfast on December 29, 2006) | ||
| Frankfast |
Aesquire - I don't know if you've had a chance to read "Omnivores Dilemma". I've just started. It's quite interesting so far. | ||
| Old_bird |
"The trading of Carbon Credits and the expected reductions in greenhouse gas emissions are targeted for the period 2008 - 2012 is my understanding. " Rocket, It has been reported in the last few days that the European approach is failing, badly. Even more interesting, the rate of greenhouse gas emissions growth in Europe is 40% higher than in the US. It is even more important to remember that Kyoto is based on the assumption that greenhouse gases are causing global warming. A couple of months ago it was reported that a couple of European scientists have a credible theory that most of any warming that is occurring is because of solar activity, not "greenhouse" gases. My real problem with the greenies, is they make a few doom and gloom predictions based on what appears to be questionable logic. I'm not sure which is worse, the greenhouse gas theory or the DDT theory. With the green house gas theory, they want billions spent with miniscule effect. With the DDT ban, millions have died needlessly. I'm all for a clean environment. It is going to take a whole lot of independent research by independent scientists before I'm going to believe the "sky is falling" greenies. | ||
| Old_bird |
"Forget about the details of sacred text. The violence in this world is caused by those who would manipulate others to do their bidding. " Amen! Sadly there are vocal minorities that want to force others to see exactly as they do, or at the very least, behave that way. Happens with secularists, Muslims, Jews, Christians and ***holes. "I believe that properly reverent harvesting of our natural bounty, hunting for food, is a legitimate, properly ecological, natural good thing." You sound like a serious, conscientious hunter so please take my question as serious, not combative. What about thinning the US deer population to decrease auto accidents? Yes it would be nice to also harvest the meat. There are a lot of food kitchens that could use it, but my experience, (my former employer permitted deer hunting to thin the masses) was we had difficulty getting rid of the meat. Of course, the rich hunters just wanted to shoot 'em, not 'em. | ||
| Old_bird |
"I think wearing fur is grotesque." I really like my new leather jacket. "I think the practice of using animals in laboratory experiments is despicable." Fluffy the rabbit or a new vaccine/medicine for my children? I think it is inhuman and shortsighted not to use animal testing. "I think the hate on this thread is caused by eating animal flesh. (I'm not vegetarian but am working on it)" I have seen and experienced real hatred in my life. Believe me, there is very little hatred on this thread or on this board. "I think that the animal population is not the only one to be controlled. But I guess that's what war is for. Right?" Awww, just try to have children in China. Just kidding. Oh wait, I thought you wanted the Sharia practicing, Islamo-fascists to be tolerated everywhere. "Have fun. And Happy New Year!" Back at you. If we ever meet, I'll be glad to buy you a beer. Seriously. | ||
| Frankfast |
Thanks - I'd like that. | ||
| Rocketman |
Old B, yes I saw those stats too, and Blair is unlikely (make that definitely) not going to reach his manifesto targets either. The way I see it is very much like you I suspect. I'm all for a clean environment too. My problem is with Bush who won't seek to go the extra mile when 169 other countries are. When you say the European approach is failing, it's only failing to reach its targets, but compared to 1990 figures and figures through the 90's greenhouse emissions have fallen haven't they? The purpose of Kyoto is to trade allowance for emissions. By 2012 we should see a country by country analysis of who is performing better or worse than others. More importantly, we should see if Kyoto works or not in its efforts to make participating countries produce less greenhouse gasses. As far as I'm aware in the run ups to 2008 the EU has not failed thus far. Either way we're all doomed in about 5 million years  Rocket | ||
| Hootowl |
Kyoto is a dismal failure. No one is meeting its requirements. It is all lip service. At least GW had the balls to say we couldn't meet it, and therefore would not sign a treaty saying we would. I view the countries that did sign to be hypocrites in that regard. That said, I choose to live two miles from work, and I drive a car that gets 45 MPG. I don't buy the whole CO2 global warming thing. Methane is 20X more heat trapping than CO2 is. Water vapor retains more heat than CO2 does. Shall we stop breathing? I don't know about the rest of you, but I exhale CO2 and water vapor, and fart methane. I'm a global warming machine. Are all the steer from our farms causing global warming? No more than the millions of bison that roamed the plains before we killed them all to starve out the natives. | ||
| Frankfast |
Rocket - I have four cars and two trucks in my driveway, six motorcycles in my garage, a ride on lawnmower and two push lawnmowers, a roto tiller, two chainsaws, a gas powered generator, a wood stove and a wood boiler. Some one once wrote "I got forty red, white and blue shoestrings and a thousand telephones that don't ring. Do you know where I can get rid of these things?" (Message edited by frankfast on December 29, 2006) (Message edited by frankfast on December 29, 2006) | ||
| Hootowl |
5 billion years. That's when 'ol Sol should go red giant on us. Now THAT'S global warming. The US is taking steps to reduce greenhouse gasses, we just haven't signed a treaty that includes provisions to create a carbon market. That would be ridiculous. Or, maybe not. I could NOT build a power plant, and then sell my CO2 credits to the US. I'd get rich, while doing absolutely NOTHING to improve the quality of life of the third world toilet I live in. Good for me. Oh, and, we are all aware that our synthetic jackets are made out of oil/natural gas right? Leather seems like a more environmentally friendly material to me. | ||
| Daves |
"If God wanted us to be vegetarians, he wouldn't have made animals out of meat."  That's great Joe. I'm going to use that one a lot! | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Pass the gravy!! | ||
| Old_bird |
"When you say the European approach is failing, it's only failing to reach its targets, but compared to 1990 figures and figures through the 90's greenhouse emissions have fallen haven't they?" I can't answer that question as I haven't seen the data. I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck but it seems strange that emission levels would be lower if they have an emissions growth rate. I am of the impression that Europe does a much better job with its diesel engines than we do. That may be about to change though. My understanding is that US diesels manufactured in 2007 have to meet much tighter standards. Regarding Kyoto, I think Bush made the right call on not spending mega-bucks on something that is predicted to have an insignificant effect on the average global temperature. I am afraid he will screw up and agree to a tax increase to bail out Social Security. I don't believe Social Security will ever be bailed out as long as it exists and the feds are running it. It is just too big of a temptation for current politicians to give away money that will have to be paid by future generations. Just my opinion. "Either way we're all doomed in about 5 million years" Lord, please forgive me for this next comment. I don't think my ex-wife will give me that long. Happy New Year! | ||
| Aesquire |
Deer & cars? In a local town park, there are too many deer & many collisions. After much discussion, ( including an attempt at deer birth control salt licks, which don't work, but sound like THE thing for tequila & raves ) "professional hunters" were hired for big $ and ran a bait & shoot operation. Lots of wounded deer, and not a solution. I think that charging $200 or so for a lottery & let Bow hunters ( too built up an area for Weatherby 30-378 magnums ) thin the herd is a better solution, but the peta types won't go for it. Every hunter I meet & ask thinks it's the best solution. There is local anger about the many "noosense" permits issued in the area, which reduce the # of available doe tags. Even though the # of hunters goes down each year, ( they grow old & die, and we are not teaching our young to hunt ) I still think that you should eat what you shoot. Ok, not woodchuck, Blech! But that is varmint control. Shoot all the rats you want. But "hunting" deer from a helicopter with a machine gun, and leaving the bodies to feed the coyotes does not strike me as fair, sporting, or wise. Caution should be taken when managing the ecology. We really don't have all the answers, look at the botch job in Yellowstone with Elk. "Either way we're all doomed in about 5 million years" Possibly, but my money is on the Yellowstone super volcano. 2nd place, Meteor impact, 3rd, stolen Soviet Biowarfare plague. But for sure the argument over CO2 emissions ends when old Sol swells up and boils the oceans. Quite correct. Kyoto, is a weapon of economic warfare. Note that the biggest polluters win. ( China) The most important thing about climate change science is that if you have 2 mutually exclusive answers to the problem, and can only do one, or the other, you better not do either, until your science is better. If we need to reduce insolation, we can set up solar power sats & substitute beamed power for combustion. It seems we have more CO2 than normal, but that may be a natural cycle. Besides, I got to ride on the Solstice, & I'm happy about that. Read Michael Crighton's "State Of Fear" & get back to me on ecoterrorists. | ||
| Rocketman |
Wikipedia have this on Kyoto http://www.airquality.co.uk/archive/reports/cat07/ 0509211321_Reghg_report_2003_Main_Text_Issue_1.doc (Greenhouse Gas Inventories for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland : 1990 - 2003) published 2005 Make of it what you will  Rocket | ||
| Cochise |
But "hunting" deer from a helicopter with a machine gun, and leaving the bodies to feed the coyotes does not strike me as fair, sporting, or wise. Wow, you'd never make it as a Wal-Mart exec. | ||
| Jon |
Come to my house after Hamburger and baked beans night and I'll show you some greenhouse gas that's make your head spin. |
