| Author | Message | ||
     Angelwild327 |
CurtyD, Although I am not a seasoned rider, I am a seasoned grown woman. I have done research on my own, taken advice from and physically learned from many seasoned riders. I will tell you this, I have seen rear wheel lock up, done on purpose, for my viewing pleasure, and I understand the concept. I think my point here is this, rather than make a statement like "never use the rear brake", new riders should be taught how to properly and effectively use ALL their controls, practice in a safe environment, and make educated riding decisions which will in turn make them better riders. For the record, I use my rear brake quite often, I understand how it is to be used, and I have never once locked up my rear wheel, because i was taught well and UNDERSTAND how it works. Oh, and when in a moment of "retard" I layed my bike down and snapped off the front brake lever, the bike was ridden all the way home using only the rear brake, by a very seasoned rider... If you teach people what ALL their tools are for, how to use them properly and show respect for their machines, you'll have less idiots on the road. Now if you're talking about what to do on a track or under certain other special conditions, please be clear about that. Thanks HUGS Ang | ||
| Tramp |
actually, most MSF grads drop their scoots, initially, due to using too much front in gravel and on turns. that's MSF grads, mind you- i've met way too many with the same issue. I'm comfortable riding with only my front in working order, i'm less comfortable riding with only my rear in working order. that being said, however, i use my rear (albeit subtly) far more than i use my front. front comes into play for finishing a stop, and for abrupt stops, in my riding, while I'm often feathering the rear at any given moment. I tend to effect my attitude flux through throttle steer waaaaaaaayyyy more than most riders, I find. I utilize more 'yaw' steering with the rear, primarily through throttle-steer. in such dirt-developed riding,any sudden decl. on the articulated plane can defeat the purpose, and the looming spectre of understeer in a really fun turn, esp. while passing dianese-clad squids, contraindicates exclusive front brake use in my riding. I find that most internet tech-xperts are an easy pass, by and large, though. we should all brake in the manner which suits our own riding, and define our riding by it's own peculiarities, rather than by our efforts toward homogeny. homogeny rarely (if ever) puts one out in front  | ||
| Beachbuell |
""Anyone with any serious time under their belt has no problems with either of these techniques."" So all the pro road racers who use their rear brake to back their bikes into corners don't have serious time under their belts? You never use your rear brake to scrub speed off before entering a corner? You never use your rear brake to keep tension on the bike when making U turns or slow speed manuvers? Use your front brake for any off these and see how fast you hit the ground. Just becuse you lock up the rear wheel when braking does not mean that you have no control over it. If you practice locking it up and learn how the bike will react and you counter react, then you have plenty of control over it. Just learn your bike. As for mirrors, I for one like seeing whats coming behind me when I am stopped at a red light. And to think that you are giving advice to newbies. Thats got to be the most worthless post I've read. Do you have a "NO FEAR" sticker on your bike too? (Message edited by beachbuell on June 12, 2006) | ||
| Djkaplan |
If rear brakes weren't important, MotoGP racers wouldn't be going through all the trouble to use them. Ignoring it, or not using it at all is ridiculous advice. Obviously, you've never dragged the rear brake with the throttle on exiting a really gnarly corner with stutter bumps past the apex. As far as the mirrors, you shouldn't be taking your eyes off of them at every red light you stop at until the car behind you is totally stopped. If you don't have mirrors just for this reason, you are a fool. | ||
| Curtyd |
Does anyone read for comprehension anymore, or are we just used to scanning the headlines? I advised to practice riding like you don't have a rear brake connected so that you would rely and develop skills stopping a bike fast and in short distances with the front brake. It worked for me and I appreciated the advice when I got it. I also said don't rely on your mirrors before making a direction change, but LOOK first. This has saved me numerous times. I have been surviving the street since the 1970's. It's about making big skills gains fast before you hit something or get hit. This works, never said in the body of my first post not to look at the mirrors, argued that you shouldn't rely on just them before changing direction. READ, READ, READ. "but riding all the time with two fingers on the brake lever seems very dangerous to me, as well as being an indication of not feeling confident enough in your own abilities to grab the brake when necessary." This poster was just inane because better riders than me know this works. What is dangerous about covering the brake, "riddle me that, MOTO MAN?" You think stop and you are doing it. Plenty confident on a bike as I'll compare street resumes with anyone. Iron Butt group even said I was eligible for their rally after reviewing my resume of seat-time with none other than Mike Kneebone himself at their awards dinner in Daytona one year in the 1990's. Youngin's know everything it seems, but how to be open-minded enough to learn something and live to an old age. "The older I get the wiser my father got", why is that? (Message edited by CURTYD on June 12, 2006) | ||
| Djkaplan |
Oh, and another thing... for God's sake, don't give advice to new riders... | ||
| Bcordb3 |
Madduck On a new BMW, with the power assisted brakes, using the only the front brake can get you killed in a quite a few situations. Is that fact or an opinion? My understanding with the BMW ABS is that the front and rear brakes are applied simultaneously when the handbrake lever is pulled. BMW calls it "partially integral brake. When the rear brake is applied, only the rear stopping. Under severe braking, the front wheel lock up and cause problems, the same as other bikes If I am wrong please correct me so that I can let BMW that the operating manuel is incorrect. I gleaned my information from the manuel. I know that this isn't a BMW thread, it is important that there is an understanding of braking systems that are mention here. (Message edited by bcordb3 on June 12, 2006) | ||
| Tramp |
Bcordb- you are, in fact, correct. it actuates both brakes, much like an earlier Honda system. I had the opportunity to do some riding/testing on early iterations of this system..... | ||
| Skyguy |
My rear brake pads get replaced right behind my fronts. I am an avid canyon carver with many track days and the back brake gets used by me A LOT! I have been riding 25 years now and have been down a few times over the years. one of those times my life was saved from an oncoming car by use of my back brake alone. Learn to use the brakes!!!!!! (both of them) Mirrors? Whats behind me dont matter. Unless I am stopped at a light then I pay them a lot of attention until a couple of cars get stopped behind me. I had to learn this the hard way by getting rear ended at a stoplight a long time ago. | ||
| Madduck |
Bcordb3, The problem isn't the application of the brake, the problem is when the brake computer decides to "not" brake. I was left sitting in the middle of a highway staring at the headlights of a truck when my brakes decided they didn't need to stop, only thing I could find later was just a light layer of gravel. I motored on across into the ditch on the other side thus avoiding the truck. It is very easy to get used to having brakes, scares the hell out of you when they go away. The BMW boards are full of this "debate", The GS series ABS has a switch due to this issue on gravel. A fair number of people have removed the ABS after one too many of these "adventures". I have had four but still feel the ABS is better than no/ABS. Applying the rear brake first "always" has eliminated the adventure part of ABS for me, altho others have emailed me stating that it was not as effective for them. I would really like the GS system on my BMW so I could turn it off on gravel roads. Lately I just take the ULY, takes some of the "adventure" out of gravel road riding. | ||
| Tramp |
the abs shunt on the GS machines wasn't strictly about gravel. it was because in offroading, there are more occasions which require lockup than not, esp. in regard to rear wheel. abs micropulse has no place offroad. | ||
| Ezblast |
The pro's and most of the MSF instructors that I have talked to (yes I've taken basic and advanced) recognize the fact that there is little use for the rear break on the street, however, they also recognize the fact that it still has usages - usually in emergencies and non road usage. As for backing it in to a corner - it is agreed - leave that to expert racers - it should not be practiced on the road because there is no room for adjustment on the turn at that point. GT - JBOTDS! EZ  | ||
| Steve_mackay |
I just spent the weekend with about 1/2 a dozen motorcycle cops. The guy who was running the Buell demo fleet this past weekend at Hals, was a full time Milwaukee moto-cop. Ever watch them do their controlled maneuvers? It's quite amazing to watch. A moto-cop wouldn't be able to do the maneuvers he does without a healthy dose of rear brake. They'd certainly disagree with the original poster's "opinion". | ||
| Slaughter |
I think the point that everybody keeps missing by pointing out usage of rear brakes in emergency or high-performance situations by experts is they're EXPERTS. I still say if you are still learning the bike and want to get the most out of the braking system without having to consciously think about modulating two different brake systems with two different responses - all while hurtling toward a turn - GENERALLY speaking, the front brake will do you better. ABS-equipped bikes or riders at AMA, WSBK or MotoGP level are different than somebody leaving the showroom with their first-ever race-replica and no experience to speak of. I've been riding more than 35 years and actually finished on the podium only recently and cannot imagine being able to really effectively use BOTH brakes in a full-adrenaline situation (though I have but only a couple times) - say with a turn coming at you at maybe 140MPH or a turn at 75... but dialling down the speed to a comfy level, maneuvering in the dirt - hech yeah. I ran off Turn 5 (top-of-hill, blind left corkscrew turn) at Thuderhill TWICE on my S3 - meaning I'm going DOWNHILL in the DIRT. Think I'm using my rear brake in the dirt??? - YOU BETCHYA!!! Front brake in the dirt woulda put me on my butt. | ||
| Curtyd |
"A moto-cop wouldn't be able to do the maneuvers he does without a healthy dose of rear brake. They'd certainly disagree with the original poster's "opinion"." Does anyone actually know how to READ around here? What does using a rear brake to do slow speed "Shriners" riding have to do with learning to use your front brake to STOP fast when you most need to avoid an accident, the point of the original poster's message [ME]. Forget it, get all your training tips from cops on 800lb Electraglides who like to impress the kids in a parking lot or a parade. Those are the same guys who ONLY wear open face helmets and short sleeve shirts in the summer. The only good thing I see is the bulletproof body armor, may be better than the racing stuff, I've worn it to. But GEE WHIZ, they're COPS they must know what they're doing, right? | ||
| Tramp |
i disagree. take two novice riders. give one a scoot with only a front brake give the other a scoot with only a rear. the rider with only a front brake will drop his scoot far more than the novice with only a rear brake. most drops involving novice riders occur with much grabbing of the lever. | ||
| Steve_mackay |
<sigh> Curtyd, I commented on your opinion. Don't like it? Don't state your opinions. And honestly, try and refrain from giving advice to that could seriously hurt or kill a novice rider. There is more to operating a motorcycle than high speed riding. | ||
| Tramp |
i think that if the wrold out there were like a fine-groomed roadrace course, stricter, more exclusive front-braking might be the order of the day. however, the constantly changing terrain demands of street riding involving surface changeup, potholes, wet leaves, puddles, gravel, sand, sleet, snow, ice, blind turns, roadkill (very slippery stuff, indeed- eastern states have insane roadkill coefficient) dictate a different style of riding. most winters i ride every day in snow and ice. forget your front brake in these conditions. my first minibike had only a rear (scrub) brake, so i developed much of my riding style based on it, some 39 years ago. i went from that to a yamaha mini-enduro ('70), and on to honda's first xr-70 ( '72....& second, & third), which i raced for several years (motos). dirt got us into using that rear brake. flattrack training taught us how to go with or without either at all. i've rode street bikes all through high school ('77'80), and continued thereafter. I more-than understand the importance of front-braking, and i also am absolutely aware of the importance of the rear brake. we all have our own styles. | ||
| Slaughter |
T*R*A*M*P - really can't argue witchya there (ya young punk). | ||
| Curtyd |
"the rider with only a front brake will drop his scoot far more than the novice with only a rear brake. " Are we talking actual motorcycles or Schwinn's? That flying over the handlebars as a kid is the whole rationale behind the no-front brake crowd, whether they're riding choppers or more traditional HD's, they still think they're on their bicycle in elementary school. | ||
| Kdan |
Does anyone actually know how to READ around here? What does using a rear brake to do slow speed "Shriners" riding have to do with learning to use your front brake to STOP fast when you most need to avoid an accident, the point of the original poster's message [ME]. I blame MTV and Maxim magazine. Welcome to the A.D.D. generation. Curtyd, you're initial post was far too long. They train us in the great corporate world to deliver important points in short bullets and within the first three pages. Management likes pretty pictures and graphs too. You're expecting too much from the majority of humanity. But, keep trying; a couple of people read it and absorbed it. | ||
| Curtyd |
"And honestly, try and refrain from giving advice to that could seriously hurt or kill a novice rider." This is pure B.S., how does advocating learning to use fully the most powerful and effective braking mechanism on your bike endanger any novice rider? Just the opposite. But heck, listen to the naysayers, that's Ok too. I said pretend your rear brake wasn't there to see what you might learn. Don't wanna do it? Then don't do it, no skin off my hide, maybe some off yours maybe not. But who knows I don't have a crystal ball that sees the future, like some folks here have. But heck let everyone just go out and crash their bikes a few times. That's probably the only effective learning method, anyway, Flatrackers, minibikers, Cop-riders, Buellie's or Bimmer/ABS riders, CRASH and BURN,... that hurts, don't want to do it again, what can I do to avoid it next time,? Maybe I'll try that front/rear, multi use motoman/motocop method braking thingie or NOT. It's just more hard time in the School of Hard Knocks... | ||
| Tramp |
curtyd- i wasn't basing my point (about novices biting it due to overuse of the front brake) on allegorical or hypothetical concepts. i state it based on speaking with and observing many novices who've dumped their scoots. again, i'm citing novice experience. disconnect your brake lever and spend a week riding around that way, then do the same with only your pedal disconnected (er....that is- on a scoot that actually has a decent rear brake)- for you or me, having only the rear will cause us to really pick our decel carefully- we'll both be much more nervous than with only a front brake. for a novice, however, it'll be the difference between staying upright or eating it. see- you and me, we approach stopping points at a good clip and we brake as abruptly as we like, so we prefer, at times our front brake. the novice will tend to ride far more conservatively, and be more hamfisted in regard to controls. grabbing too much lever in the wrong situation drops 'em. | ||
| Curtyd |
It's a good illustration Tramp. But the answer to staying alive on the street is NOT to learn to get better with the rear brake, but to master the front one and ride it like you and I have, don't you agree? It may take some dumping, it did for me, and you, I assume as well. Another reason the repliracers aren't good learner's bikes. that plastic gets expensive...$$$. | ||
| Danny_h__jesternut |
Ok, so I'm crusing along and suddenly I must make a hard stop, for what ever reason. I first successfuly transfer the load to the front with 90%. I've still got in reserve 10%, left sitting there on the rear unused. Not much you say? If that 10% is used and it equals only 5 extra feet of stoping distance, that could be the differance in hittin or not hitting what ever it was that caused the hard braking in the first place. Why leave anything sitting on the table? Even if you got 99% on the front, you still got 1% on the rear. Every inch counts. Learn proper use of both thats why they give you two. Get out in the empty parkin lot, learn to load the front till you can feel the rear start to float, very good. No. Your not done. Now go paint some black stripes, lock the rear(no front) learn the skid. Once its locked keep it locked, cause if your wheels are outa line and you unlock it, meet high side. Now put the two togather and you get full panic stop = max. | ||
| Rocketman |
To suggest that riding with the rear brake as (anyones) primary stopping force is ridiculous beyond comprehension. Rocket | ||
| Tramp |
yep- those pro flattrackers are ridiculous  . actually, judging things which one knows little about eclipses it for ridiculousness. habitual public presumption: priceless. | ||
| Tramp |
of course, "beyond comprehension" entails the taking into account of one's capacity for comprehension. some lacks just can't be accounted for. | ||
| Curtyd |
Rocket and my more experienced friends, these "book-riders" don't get it. I guess because they haven't yet found out what happens in a true panic stop. Your weight is shifting so fast to the front, that there is no weight or contact patch even left on the ground from the rear tire, no weight,tire barely in contact with the ground, any braking there just locks the rear wheel, that could mean GAME OVER. TILT!!! It's a lot like the old HD rider telling you he had to "lay the bike down" to save it. Like a bike slows down faster when it's sliding on it's side instead of still up on both wheels. It's just a code word where they are trying to cover up that they CRASHED the darn bike, rather than get it stopped the right way. | ||
| Curtyd |
By the way, I love FLATTRACK, my favorite racing, bar none. Those guys ride on the edge all the time and I don't understand how they do it, but I love watching it. But it is a balance between controlled slides and on the power sprints in a dirttrack oval. I wouldn't think that would translate to street survival, but I'll bet any of them could outride me any day in any environment, so maybe there is something I could learn there. So many rides, so little time.. |
