| Author | Message | ||
     Captainkirk |
October is upon us and it's once again colder than a witches t!t out in My Buell Garage. Looking for info on a GOOD garage heater for a (soon to be) insulated 2-1/2 car(?) bike shop. Caveats are; 1) garage...I mean "shop"... is presently wired for 120V @ 15 amps...this shoots down a lot of electric heaters I've seen. 2)Natural gas would be quite expensive to route out there as it is detached and gas line would have to be trenched about 50 feet. 3)Whatever I use has to be efficient and odor-free. I worked in a couple of home shops with catalytic propane heaters that had my head throbbing within 10 minutes. The smell was horrible. 4) Needs to be relatively inexpensive...say, less than $300.00. Any suggestions? Oh yeah...I would prefer a permanently mounted ceiling unit with a blower. (Message edited by captainkirk on October 29, 2005) | ||
| Tq_freak |
there is a company out there that uses waste engine oil to produce the heat, I can remember the name of them but they work very well and there is very little stink. a friend of my dad's has one and ill ask him more about it next time I see him | ||
| Essthreetee |
I don't know if it would work wherever you are, but My mom has one of those liquid filled radiant electric heater...warms the room REAL NICE...can be programmed to come on at a certain time...can be set to run it at a certain temp. Isn't hot to the touch, but sure does make a room nice and warm.... http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=249077-33454-MG15T&detail=desc&lpage=none May not be enough for a Garage...bit maybe worth a check. (Message edited by Essthreetee on October 29, 2005) | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
Essthreetee_ I have one of those oil-filled electric radiant heaters in the master bedroom. It assists the woodstove and helps take the chill out of the room. I have it programmed to go on for an hour and a half while going to sleep and come on 1/2 hour before the alarm goes off in the morning. However, I don't think it is enough for a garage. Maybe two of them would work? In your situation I think a good propane heater would be best. Just make sure it has the proper fresh air supply and it should be OK. | ||
| Cochise |
I learned alot about heaters while in InjunMort's garage, TQ_Freak has it dead-balls on with the Waste Oil Heater. | ||
| Oldog |
I had a propane radiant type, in a 1 car garage I had to keep a windown cracked and run the heat low, there would be an issue with any flamable vapours a grill bottle would last about 2 weeks of steady use | ||
| Loki |
I would vote the gas route. Rent a walk behind trencher. Check local codes. The trench will not need to be real deep(depending on codes). Bury seamless copper coil suitable for gas. You may only need to pay a gas guy to make the connections! At the same time....add a phone line and water. The water need only be a spicket( barn yard style are awesome) Make the trench deep enough for the water to be below the frost line. Toss sand on top to the exceed minimums for the gas line. add some more and toss the phone line on top. One trench and three birds, priceless knowing where it is all at. upgrade electric at same time... some sced 80 pvc of the 3/4 inch (min) or 1 inch. Will allow you to drag that electric upgrade when you can now that is killing 4 birds with one deep trench. Check the local codes to be certian though. | ||
| Tq_freak |
thanx cochise, Those little heaters are pretty efficent and they take care of all your used oil, im pretty sure you can use regular home heating oil also. I couldnt see why not | ||
| Tramp |
yep- they can burn #2 as well as used motor oil....they typically come with an assortment of valves and orifices for burning various viscosities and volatilities. the "unvented" propane heaters are great- the vapours that caused captainkirk's headaches were the product of combusting solvent gases present in the ambient air. I lived in a cottage heated only by an unvented propane heater...it was fine until we'd so much as open a bottle of cleaning fluid in the next room, then everything would smell like paint thinner and we'd have to open windows.....in a garage, the raw material for vapours is far worse.... | ||
| Cochise |
Your welcome Freak, I'd like to get one for my tiny, two car Gay-rage (the happy place to work) we change our own oil at work, and I'm sure I could get a barrel or two a year, not that I would need a barrel. | ||
| Marks3tbillet |
I know you said you don't have 220 Volt electric, but: Northern Tools sells a compact electric, 17000 BTU unit that I have used for about 8 years. I use it in my 3 car garage and it works great. Just mount it to the ceiling, run the wiring and you are done. Mark | ||
| Jackbequick |
A side effect of the "torpedo" type unvented propane or kerosene heaters is that they put a fair amount of moisture into the air. I used to know the figures for liters of water per hour per BTUs of heat but can't seem to lay my hand on it now. That moisture can get a lot of things to rusting, soften sheet rock joint compound, damage paint, and cause a lot of general havoc. The problem is worse if the heating is intermittent and there is considerable day/night temperature differential. Sweating will occur on larger metal machines and stuff as the temps rise and fall. Jack | ||
| Bandm |
Radiant tube heaters are efficient and can run on LP gas until you get natural gas hooked up. They are ceiling mounted, vented, and easy to install. Used oil burners are pricey, burn alot of oil, and don't like contaminated oil (brake fluid, carb cleaner, brake cleaner, etc). They do put out good heat, and get rid of used oil. Mine uses at least 300 gallons a season (2000 SF with 16 Ft ceiling) and cut my gas bill for the tube heater by half. http://www.easyradiantworks.com/ http://www.bestechinc.com/WOF/wof145.htm | ||
| Hotrats |
these laser kero furnaces are nice - alittle pricey, but have alot of features - programable thermostat, outside air for combustion/exhaust vented outside. operate off 110v http://www.toyotomiusa.com/products/laserventedheaters/L-56.html | ||
| Lowflyer |
Check this out. A coworker of mine built one of these and it works. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Kirk, got onto this from working in construction for a while. We used to put just one 100watt bulb in a portajon during the winter. Suprising how much heat they put out for a small space. I have tried to heat my whole garage (25X55), insulated in the cealing and walls but was way too expensive with 240 v. overhead heater and heat was localized anyways. Picture is my current solution. 8 100 watt floodlights with aluminum foil to reflect downward over where I'm working. Considerable light also. Draws about 7 amps. Heats work area fine and I don't worry about the rest of the garage as its attached to house and usually maintains about 35-40 degrees anyways. I turn it on about 1/2 hour before starting work or riding during the winter. Its suprised me how much heat those flood lights put out for the power used. Also I can adjust how much heat/light I need by just unscrewing bulbs.  | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Kirk, I just bought a heater for my garage yesterday, it's a Beacon/Morris 74,000 BTU ceiling mount. Should be good for a 3 plus garage, especially if it'e insulated. It was $500 at Menards this week ($50 off this week). It has a propane conversion for about $15. It's 80% efficient so should be pretty good on gas. However, I'm with Loki. Bite the bullet and trench in a gas line. It's worth it in the long run. A 100 feet of 3/4 copper will cost less tha $100. That's plenty big for just about any garage heater. I should have it in place in a week or so. No more cold hands!!! Yipie! Brad | ||
| Tom_b |
If your going underground you should use "L" copper which is illegal in some ares for gas line. A 100 ft roll of "L" copper will run you more than 100 bucks it should be at LEAST 18" in depth. Be on the safe side and use coated gas line and wrap the joints. | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
First off, insulate your shop/garage- with but 4 inches of R11 my garage in Minneapolis has never been warmer than 80 or cooler than 0. Second, remember that any heat source that has a flame can set off the burning or explosion of any flamible gas. I heat my shop with a wood stove and keep all the aerosol cans and other flammables far from my shop and house. When I've got a fire burning in the woodstoves there is no gasoline in my shop- I either take the tanks off the motorcycles and put them outside or drain it. I have a diesel car that can stay inside the shop when a fires burning in the stove, but my gas powered pickup pretty much spends the winter outside. I also put up a tarp across the middle so if I open the door to take the car out in January I don't lose all the heat in the back of the shop where I'm working. Of course with the temp reaching the 60s today I had the windows wide open! | ||
| Tramp |
if there are no aerosols or flammables (gasoline) in there, it's actually just a garage and not a shop.... shops are where you work on things, garages are where you store 'em... | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
Sometimes I wonder if some of the old gearheads I know aren't addicted to those "aeromatic hydrocarbons" and just don't know it yet- might explain some of their weird behavior... A friend of mine had his garage all warm and cozy, thanks to a little kerosene fired portable space heater. So he brought into the garage an empty gas tank to work on. Almost as soon as he opened the cap on that empty gas can the fumes inside were sucked along with the air in the garage to that little kerosene space heater, where they were promptly ignited. Then the flame spread back to the "empty" gas tank, which my friend had by now dropped as he promptly exited said garage. Fortunately within a few more seconds all the gas vapors in that "empty" tank were consumed and the fire was out. The gas tank was not so neatly cleaned out, but my now shaking friend would have preferred to clean it out by the slower method. Fortunately most bikes can be easily drained of fuel- the tubers require the fuel hoses and one bolt removed. My BMW airheads are even easier- don't even need a wrench to remove the bolt. The XBs will need to be drained though, and I still wouldn't assume they're empty. Probably better to warm up the shop first, then bring the XB inside after the flame has died. 60 degrees in the shop now after a high of 69 yesterday, so doesn't look like I'll have to worry about heat for a while! | ||
| Tramp |
don't drain your tanks in the winter...it fosters condensation (water) i there.... just fill it up before parking....if you're ascaired of winter riding, that is.... but seriously- never drain your tank for protracted periods of time, PLUS, the fumes in a drained tank are far more volatile than a full tank.... some "gearheads" actually have experience in these matters... | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
My nemesis Tramp makes a good point- if you drain the tank, try to refill it soon. Fortunately those of us with the tubers can just pull the tank off and leave it outside, but the XBs and a lot of other contemporary bikes with buried fuel tanks don't have that luxury. Temp in the garage is currently 58 degrees, I'm tempted to try out the cord of firewood I picked up in the chedderhead state today to take off the chill... but I'd have to move the Cyclone outside, take the tank of the R80ST+sidehack, and move a few bicycles away from the wood stove. Think I'll put off that fire building 'til tomorrow... | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
If I may add something. Condensation in a tank is not so much of a problem on an XB. Sure the appropriate (or inappropriate) amount of condensation could lead to enough water buildup to produce rough running. However, on a conventional steel tank the extra H2O also can lead to rusting and eventually tank perforation. These last two problems should be relatively unknown on the XB's or tubers with their respective non-ferrous fuel cells. In the XB or a tuber (unless contraindicated in a plastic tank) a bit of isopropyl should cure any water issues, when they occur. | ||
| Captainkirk |
WOW! Thanks for the truckload of responses! You guys have brought up some thoughts and ideas I hadn't thought of before(LOVE THAT BADWEB!) In the long run, I think trenching in natural gas and/or 220VAC would be the ticket...but too late in the year for that. I've already started insulating with R19 (none of that pansy-crap for me!) and will continue through the "off season". Eventually, though, this is going to be a "working" Buell/Sportster shop so it needs to be accessible 12 months a year. Point well taken about the headaches...we have radiant heaters at work and when spraying mineral spirits, etc.the smell will last for days sometimes. I am curious as to the efficiency v. utility of some of the upper-scale electric heaters compared to gas-fired heaters in price comparison-any heads-up on this topic? Electricity is fairly expensive in my area, but we've also been warned to expect a 70% increase in gas prices this winter!!!Your input is greatly appreciated  | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
Good planning, Captain Kirk! The insulation makes a huge difference- your shop is probably built on a concrete slab on top of the ground like mine, and that slab acts like a huge heat sink. With the insulation keeping out the extreme heat of summer and cold of winter, the slab will moderate the temperature in your shop. Thusly it never gets above 80 in here and never below zero. I haven't fired up the wood stove in days but it's 59 degrees in here now and 45 outside, with a low of 42 forecast tonight. That big heat sink slab will help modulate the temps in here when it really gets cold too- if I've fired up the wood stove often in january or february I'll notice the snow melting around the slab and the bucket of water I keep near the stove won't freeze- a sure sign that the slab is storing heat even though I haven't had a fire in the stove for days. So you're doing it the right way- insulate first, then add heat. Unfortunately my 118 year old house isn't so energy efficent- with almost no insulation and too many leaky old windows it becomes hotter than hell in the summer and freezing cold in winter. Fortunately I have phone, internet access, and TV here in the shop so I spend most of my time here. I haven't turned on the natural gas furnace in the house yet, but with 3 cords of firewood on hand I'll probably spend most of the winter out here and keep the house just warm enough to keep the pipes from freezing. I applied for a building permit for a corn stove for the house, but even if they approve the permit it'll probably be spring before Fleet Farm gets corn stoves in stock again. Sounds like I'll have to suffer through a long winter of rebuilding the bikes and such here in the shop (LOL)... | ||
| Cochise |
One thing to think about when dealing with gasoline. You can weld right next to a FULL fuel tank, but not recommended near an EMPTY fuel tank, because fumes is what USUALLY catches fire. | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
I'm surprised no one has mentioned and outdoor wood furnace. They are a bit pricey, but they run (via circulator) hot water to baseboards (not sure if there are other heating options). They usually have a propane backup. I think if you use a good heat system antifreeze, even the threat of frozen pipes will be eliminated. And the best thing is no fire in the shop or garage. It's all outside and they usually take logs as well as split wood. Coal is also another good source of heat, it is plentiful (at least around here) and fairly cheap. Got any peat bogs nearby? | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
Well, it's 11 am, temps been stuck at 45 degrees, wind from the northwest, and it's clouded over= looks like I might have to unload and stack the cord of firewood I procured yesterday instead of go for a ride. I'd rake the leaves too, but might as well wait 'til they've all fallen. Besides, if I raked the leaves then I'd see how long the grass has gotten and I might have to mow the lawn too. Back to the subject at hand- er, what was the subject- oh it was heating shops (my age is showing- no wonder why I keep forgetting where I'm going and end up riding all over the place). A friend of mine has a huge 4000 square foot building in a little town on the glacial ridge (sportbike heaven) in western Minnesota. Nice building, but cost $3000 to heat with natural gas last winter and maybe twice as much this year. She found a neat outdoor boiler like that with over 100,000 BTU output. Neater yet it can burn corn, wood pellets, or after a 5 minute switchover logs up to 4 foot long. Also with heat exchangers it will produce hot water and hot air to feed existing forced air systems. She put an order in, but the supplier is so backordered there's no way they can get it installed before the ground freezes. Thusly she's gonna have to drain the plumbing and shut down the building for the winter... Kind of a bummer as I was gonna buy her smaller 600 square foot building next to it and she was gonna plumb that into the system too. Oh well, maybe next summer I'll finally get out of the 'hood here and have great riding instead of traffic jams right out my door! | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Buellgrrrl Have your friend check into quality PEX tubing for the plumbing. Quality PEX (not the junk you get from Menards) has no problems with freezing. If the system fails and freezes no harm is done to the plumbing. If you want, I can point you to all the info you need. Wersbo is a local company in Apple Vally, they make some of the best PEX available. Ping me offline, I have more info for you if you want it. Brad | ||
| Jeremyh |
park bike in living room! | ||
| Eboos |
This won't answer your question, and I may be wrong but 110/15 may not adiquatly suit your needs for a home shop. You may need to do some electrical wiring upgrades. A moderatly powered aircompressor will hog up that circuit by itself. If you plan on using other equipment at the same time, you will be making a lot of trips back and forth to the circuit breaker. If you do plan on doing the upgrade, you might as well add a 220. Even if you don't need it now, you will have it when you want to expand your equipment. |
