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Buellrobot
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 09:33 pm: | 
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Been having a lot of (different types of) trouble w/ my '02 X1 lately. I've got about 16k miles on it.
Recently had the top end rebuilt after a bad breakdown on a cross country ride. Felt at the mercy of Salinas Harley Davidson, so they replaced a lot (new cylinders, pistons, seals... they said the engine was warped from overheating). I have put roughly 250 miles on it, getting it to the shipping center in San Jose, and then picking it up in NJ and riding back to Brooklyn.
Now that the bike is back in NYC I've just taken it out for a few short local rides over thanksgiving. While it generally seemed to be running OK, tonight I noticed that if I was sitting at a stop light for a while, it would sometimes sort of miss a beat. Like the low rhythmic rumble/chug of the engine would skip -- not very often, or in a discernible pattern, and seemed to only happen when sitting at a light for 25+ seconds.
At one point I was going a bit slow, trying to decide which way to go, and I stopped for a few seconds longer than usual, at a stop sign, and the bike suddenly died. I started it back up and it was kinda fussy and seemed to not want to get back to a normal idle for a few seconds, and then rode normally.
I rode another .2 miles and found a good spot to pull over... I left it running and began to inspect—after 20 seconds the bike suddenly died. I left it off for about 1 minute and looked at it, to see if anything seemed out of place. Then I started it back up, and it started without a hiccup.
I pulled in at a gas station, another 1/2 mile up the road, to further inspect and left it running to see what would happen. It died again. I got some gas and then started it up again and it started without hesitating.
So I rode it back to the garage, another 2.5 miles of brooklyn city, and had no problems at all.
I'm hoping this is the air filter (I've got a cleaning kit on the way--I've got one of those forcewinder-style KN jobs), battery, or some other easy to fix issue... but I'm not really sure where to start with troubleshooting. Any suggestions are appreciated.
(Message edited by buellrobot on November 26, 2011) |
Harleyelf
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 12:26 am: |
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Did Salinas H-D set your idle too low? Turn the screw in a quarter turn and see what happens. |
Buellrobot
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 02:21 am: |
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It's idling at about 1k, which I believe is correct. |
Harleyelf
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 09:52 am: |
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Humor me. Tickle it in a bit and see if it doesn't continue to idle at the same rpm without taking the post-decel dive. You are just past break-in miles and the idle frequently needs to be adjusted (and the plugs cleaned) at that time. You're due for an oil change, too, if you haven't done it twice already since the new rings went in. Respect your investment - treat the break-in properly. The rings cut the cylinder walls during break-in and let a bit of oil through (which burns onto the plugs) before they fully seat. The metal shavings produced in the first 300 miles must be removed with a few oil changes or the oil will become abrasive. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 09:55 am: |
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Since someone else worked on it, first check your grounds, as always. Just because the bolt or screw is tight doesn't mean the connector is, or that it is making good contact. Eliminates one of the usual suspects.
You don't report any check engine lights, but you still might want to check for codes. And get access to ECMSpy. Turn on the ign and stop/run switch and do not start the engine. Roll the throttle smoothly open, then closed, and confirm no spikes in the TPS response.
Check your AFV setting. It should be close to 100. If not, reset to 100. And nothing wrong with doing a TPS reset.
Let us know how it goes. Dave |
Buellrobot
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 02:02 am: |
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Cool, I'll go down this laundry list as soon as I can, and will report back. Thanks guys. |
Buellrobot
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 12:48 am: |
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So I had some time to check a few of these things out.
First, I checked/re-tightened the battery terminals, and they both looked OK. I also cleaned and re-oiled the forcewinder intake.
I hooked up ecmspy
*Did a TPS reset.
*AFV was at 111 (I didn't reset... wasn't sure how close to 100 it should be)
*It showed an entry for error code 14 "Temperature too high/short to ground"
(I accidentally got a little ground arc when disconnecting the battery terminal... could that have done this? The bike ignition wasn't on, so I'm thinking that probably wouldn't have been logged in the computer?)
I took it out for a 40 minute ride and it seemed to do OK, but I didn't ride super hard (it was pretty cold out--42 degrees or so). I let it idle for a while to see if it would skip a beat and it didn't seem to. I did notice that the idle seemed to waver between 1,025 and 1,200 (or so) rhythmically, but I seem to remember that as normal (is it?).
I forgot to reset the error code before I went out, but I reset it when I came back, so I'll know if it pops up again.
Sometime next week I'll do my plugs — I have already changed engine oil/filter twice since the engine was rebuilt.
How hot is too hot for these engines? Is there a good way to know when you're getting close? I don't have a good way to do ecm logging while I ride, unfortch.
Thanks again for the help. --Dean |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 09:35 am: |
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An AFV above 100 (in my limited understanding) and a 'wandering' idle would seem to indicated a leaking intake manifold gasket(s). Although in this case, not a bad leak. You may want to investigate further.
Code 14 is the engine temp sensor, and given your recent riding conditions, I might be more inclined towards a short to ground. Carefully check the PK/Y wire. I don't think you are getting to an overheat issue.
And in talking to Al at American Sport Bike, the ETS sensors can fail internally w/o throwing a fail code, so you may want to just replace it, esp given your bikes calendar age. I know the calendar has caused various failures on my tubers, as opposed to use/abuse. |
Harleyelf
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 10:24 am: |
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Dean:
Good job; you're walking the line that leads to proper tuning. The engine can run as hot as 250 degrees Fahrenheit without damage; you are unlikely to see temperatures this hot in NYC unless you run way lean. The intake manifold seals should have been replaced in Salinas; they undoubtedly used H-D parts instead of the nice soft blue James o-rings. Idle above 1000 rpm shows there is no need to kick the idle adjust screw up. We may be getting to the cam position sensor soon; it can make a bike go schizophrenic, shutting down for no apparent reason and starting back up after a rest. |
Buellrobot
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 11:26 am: |
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I'll check for intake leaks, although I did change all those gaskets 4.5k miles ago.
Is PK/Y the ETS wire?
I'll see if I can't get something to fix this problem before I swap in a new ETS, since they're kinda pricey. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 11:32 am: |
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PK/Y color is from the ETS diagnostic tree in the factory service manual. |
Buellrobot
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 11:59 am: |
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@Harleyelf, looks like Salinas HD didn't change those intake gaskets — I'm checking the invoice and not seeing anything that seems to match. Lots of O rings and all the primary/starter motor gaskets were changed, but I don't think the intake was done. |
Bluzm2
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 12:38 pm: |
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If you are getting a 14 code, start there.
I worked on a X1 earlier this year that was exhibiting pretty similar symptoms.
I changed out the head temp sensor, reset the AFV to 100 and verified the TPS.
The bike ran like new, after about 30 miles the ECM learned the new input data and it ran even better.
With ECM spy, check the head temp value when the motor is cold and as it warms up.
I'll bet it doesn't change much.
Also note, there have been quite a few shorted head temp sensor leads. Pull the tank and CAREFULLY check the temp lead for fraying. This is the easy fix if that's the case.
If the temp sensor is bad, changing slightly leaking intake seals won't make much difference.
If the seals haven't been changed for 3 or more years, change them.
Use Sylglyde on them when reinstalling.
Brad |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 02:38 am: |
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Yup,with an AFV of 111 it means the bike is seeing a lean area in the learned fuel---very small area on an X-1---and adding 11% more fuel EVERYWHERE!!! Going to cause some running issues. |
Buellrobot
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 02:55 am: |
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Ok, so I swapped out the ET sensor and it seems to have reigned in how far up/down the idle oscillates, which is good. It generally seems to run smoother, so I'm pretty sure something was up with the one I pulled out.
I'm still not sure how well it's actually running, so I shot a 30 second video. I can't tell if I'm hearing a knock, or if it's just the usual Buell rattle -- during the last part of the video I get closer to the cylinders, so you can hear what I'm talking about.
Video: http://vimeo.com/33439544
@Firemanjim, I didn't reset the AFV yet, but also didn't realize that it was an actual percent — 111 is pretty high then. Will reset that over the weekend.
I appreciate all the suggestions/feedback  |
Harleyelf
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 10:42 am: |
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I hear air moving. Perhaps it's all from the air cleaner, but intake seals are cheap and a perfect ride is twice as much fun as a 95% perfect ride. Is your primary chain adjusted correctly? The other sound is more of a grinding than a knock. Won't hurt anything until it becomes a slap against the primary cover or tears the adjusting shoe off its mounting plate. Your lifters sound fine. |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 01:15 pm: |
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And the clicking is from your injectors firing.
Idles like my two. Cams are more radical than a standard HD engine setup.
Now that you have replaced the ETS (engine temp sensor) that should have cleared up any skip-spark issues. Remember, at idle your engine is running in closed loop. That means that the O2 sensor must be working correctly for the ECM to keep the AFR values correct. If you are still experiencing surging while riding, and under 3600 rpm, then your O2 sensor should be changed too. Open loop (above 3600 rpm) or WOT does not require O2 sensor input to the ECM.
Remember, your ECM requires input from six (6) sensor, they are...
1.) Throttle Position Sensor
2.) Camshaft Position Sensor
3.) Engine Temperature Sensor
4.) Intake Air Temperature Sensor
5.) Oxygen (O2) Sensor
6.) Bank Angle Sensor (BAS)
Message edited: I used enrichener issue, should have read "skip-spark issues"
(Message edited by two_seasons on December 10, 2011) |
Buellrobot
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 08:04 pm: |
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Oh, and one other thing I noticed — when I test the front coil in ecmspy, I hear click-click-click. When I test the rear coil, I hear nothing. |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 09:49 pm: |
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Check ALL of your coil connections. |
Buellrobot
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 06:39 pm: |
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I checked the coil connections on the spark plugs and the unit, everything was plugged in tight and looked good.
Fired up ECMSpy and checked the AFV again (had ridden a few nights ago) and it was at 106.
Had something strange happen — I tried the test for the rear coil, got nothing. Tried the test on the front coil, and got nothing... did it a 2nd time and I got this weird hiss/squawk (like the engine sorta turned over part way) and a puff of medium-grey smoke came out of the right side of the bike up near the breather.
Started the bike up after that (just to see) and it seemed to start normally. Maybe it was fuel left in the cylinder or something? |
Harleyelf
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 07:13 pm: |
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Sounds like the fuel line was pressurized and you sent a puff of fuel out of the injector when the intake valve was shut. 106 is a lot better than 111 |
Buellrobot
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 02:55 am: |
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I did some more work on the bike tonight, and it seems like I don't have any intake leaks.
1) The bike seems to run smoother than it did before, after replacing ETS, BUT I still have some minor waver in the idle RPMs. I notice it most when the bike is warm and I'm stopped at a light. The wavering idle is intermittent and seems to not happen in a discernible pattern (like it'll happen 6-10 times per minute, but not in a rhythmic way).
2) I took a small propane torch and sprayed about 15-20 seconds around all the intake/manifold seals, as bike was running, and didn't hear any difference in the idle. Is that the proper technique? I have fresh seals, but don't want to put them in if I don't need to.
3) I pulled the spark plugs and they were just very lightly grey/whitish with a slightly powdery texture. Generally looked pretty good, but I had fresh plugs, so I threw those in and will keep these as backups.
Is it time to try a new O2 sensor, or are there other things that I should be looking into first/additionally?
Thanks!
(Message edited by buellrobot on December 25, 2011)
(Message edited by buellrobot on December 25, 2011)
(Message edited by buellrobot on December 25, 2011) |
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X1 Dies on Longer Idle