| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Thanks Hoser. I already talked to my local dealer about pressing the new bearings in the main drive gear. They are fine with that, and it can be done off bike. I will try again (maybe tonight) to get the main pulley out, but not force anything. I will line things up a lot more carefully this time. Thanks for the datapoint on how hard to fight it, that was what I was looking for. If it won't come out, no big deal, I won't force it, I will just throw the bike in a truck and let the dealer do that part. Thats good news about possibly saving the main drive gear... if I can salvage the existing one (which looks pretty ugly, but could be fine) that will more then pay for any shop labor that could come up from them removing and replacing the existing one. I eyeballed the mainshaft and it shows no signs of scoring or wear beyond some light pitting. No scoring whatsoever. I will throw calipers on it tonight and see if it changes diameter where the bearings run or is out of round. Thanks for talking me off the ledge. If I have to borrow a truck and haul the thing to the dealer, it is not a big deal, and I NEED to remember that. I will take my time, and bail if things get scary. | ||
| Reepicheep |
 Thanks for the advice Hoser... it worked great. Slow and steady wins the race. I took my time to get a good solid backplate built, a nice thick threaded rod, and centered everything as well as I could. I tightened it up a quarter turn at a time, then tapped it gently in all four directions (up, down, right, left, never in). You could actually see the thing creep in barely on one of the four taps, and it would then be ready for another 1/4 to 1/2 turn on the nut. Popped right in like you said. Nothing dramatic, no force greater then was comfortable to apply with a 6" open end wrench. Now I gotta find some industrial strength snap ring pliars, that main drive bearing snap ring is a monster. The final drive gear is soaking in solvent now. You were right, it does not look that bad. I will let the guys at the shop look at it and see what they think. Hopefully it can be reused, thats $114. The mainshaft is pitted, but it cleaned up reasonably well with a brass brush and some 1200 grit paper. It is still perfectly round. I am torn on if I should reuse it or not. I don't see how the new bearing is going to have much more luck in the old bearing, so I don't know if the whole mess will have more then another 15k or 20k life span anyway, so I don't know if it makes sense to drop a lot of money on a new shaft just to extend the life of needle bearings that are destined to just rust away anyway. Again... thanks for the expert advice... sorry to drag you into the middle of this in the first place, I really appreciate you sharing your time and experience. Bill "who prefers the term 'kludged' as members of all races and genders can all happily and equally effectively crack an engine case  " edited by reepicheep on July 23, 2003 | ||
| Hoser |
Bill: Automatically assuming that the new bearings arn't gonna last ?? What you just saw is uncommon , but it does happen , it's just never happened to me , I do annual inspection of the transmissions in my own bikes , thats when lubing of those bearings happens. | ||
| Jim_witt |
How'z come no pictures? -JW:>( | ||
| Sportyeric |
Congrats, Bill. Glad it worked out (pardon the pun.) I never saw my bearing. I replaced the fifth final drive, along with a new fifth counter, on advice from those here regarding matching wear patterns and the risk of breaking off a tooth if I didn't. Anyway, I don't know how rusty the bearing was but it had 75,000 miles and ten years, with frequent rides caught far out of town in the rain. (I'm on the north-west coast.)I'd say replace the gear and assume that the bearings will be fine for the life of the bike. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Pictures to come... it was late last night and I did not have time to snap any. I am open to discussion about the bearing life... I bring it up to benefit from the wisdom of people with more experience then me. The original seal looked intact, but the bearing race was literally rusted to dust, nothing left of it. Why would it not do it again? I have had the bike since 3000 miles, and it never sat more then two weeks without being run up to temperature, and the primary fluid was changed at frequent intervals. I won't say the new bearing can't last longer, just that I don't see any evidence why it might. I am really not copping an attitude here, and of everyone participating in the discussion, I am pretty sure I know the *least* about it. I am just pushing for evidence or understanding. (and I am in denial. I *really* don't want to have to pull or buy that mainshaft  ) Hoser... Is there a reason you think the mainshaft is baked but the final drive gear is probably OK? Well, besides... the picture of the baked mainshaft I posted? Is what you are describing the typical failure scenario? You were the one that nailed the problem to a T before I even pulled the tranny out... you obviously know what you are talking about. | ||
| Aaron |
Bill, just out of curiousity, what's your philosophy on belt tension? | ||
| Reepicheep |
For the first 6000 miles or so (3k by previous owner, 3k by me) it was likely *way* too tight. After that, it was by the book for about another 3k miles (which I think is *a little too tight*). Since then (9k to 16k miles) it was "sloppy loose". With me sitting on the bike, I can reach down and lift the bottom of the belt so it touches the bottom of the swingarm. Not much looser then that, but no significant tension there. Think that may be a factor in the bearing failure? Like maybe I blew the bearing first, and the rust followed? It is a *real* possibility. If you go back to my primary tensioner woes, I heard some crunhcyness there then. That was right at the end of my "too tight belt" era. | ||
| Aaron |
Yes, I think it could be. But I can't say I know for sure. Just asking. There are lots of high mileage bikes out there that've never had this problem. | ||
| Reepicheep |
So what are the ramifications of using a polished but pitted shaft that is still in tolerance and still round with a needle bearing? I can see how it would be suicide for ball bearings, but for a needle bearing it seems like it would just slightly lower the bearing surface area, not a big deal. But everything I know about bearings I learned in electrical engineering school (... i.e. absolutely nothing). Or am I into a "oil type and tire contact patches" discussion? | ||
| Awprior |
I just got done replacing the detent plate in my 2000 M2. The old one was definitely toast, the retaining ring split in half and was in the bottom of the primary. The plate didn't look too happy either. I got the bike back together, it shifts like a dream now. When I got home, there was an odd clunking noise coming from the rear of the primary cover (clutch area). The noise could be heard with in gear and in neutral. My guess is that somehow the clutch is either binding somewhere causing the chain to drag. With the primary chain 'window' taken off, it's obvious to see that the chain isn't turning at a constant velocity. If anyone has any input, I'd love to hear it before I tear the thing apart again. Thanks, Alex | ||
| Reepicheep |
Aw. I have had one of those final tiny bits around that ball and ramp assembly that couple the clutch cable to that little arm internal to the primary cover let go. I did not have the spring clip quite completely seated. About the third time I pulled the clutch lever, I heard a little "sproing", and the spring clip had let go. I was able to fish out the pieces and put it back together without pulling the primary cover again. Could it be something like that? | ||
| Awprior |
I replaced the spring clip and detent plate, I'm positive it's not that. I'm convinced the clutch plates are dragging somehow. I'm probably just going to tear the entire thing apart, just haven't mustered up the patience yet. | ||
| Rippin |
Aaron, My 99 M2 ate two rear wheels and bearings with belt set at fact. spec (at that time)within 8000miles before I decided to run it on the loose side. 20000+miles afterwards with no other problems. I set my 01 M2 up the same way and with 10000+ no such problems.**knock on CF**. Sorry I didn't get to buy your 29t of e-bay. Seems someone wanted more than I. Thanks for all your help. Ryan | ||
| Hoser |
Bill: Typical failure scenario , would be owner complaining of lousy shifting , or "the bike is stuck in fifth gear" upon inspection the tech discovers fifth gear needle bearings have failed , and a damaged the mainshaft. Any of these I have seen have been rusty , this area sees little lubricant , some times a bike will show up missing the seal that caps off the end of the main drive gear. Based on the photograph you posted , your mainshaft is pretty much a paperweight , again it's not me personaly inspecting any of these parts so it's your call weather you use it again or not. Aaron is on track , suspecting a belt that has been run too tight , this can bring on all kinds of grief !!, like seal leakage , main drive gear bearing damage , pulley failure , wheel bearing failure , snapped drive belt. Alex: Do you have the newest primary chain tensioner ? | ||
| Awprior |
Yeah, replaced the tensioner a few weeks ago. | ||
| Buelliedan |
AW, When you put the detent plate back on did it sit flat or was it at an angle? The pins on the drum often loosen up and start pushing the detent plate out which then causes the plate to drag on the inside of the clutch pack. | ||
| Steve01 |
the bolt that goes through my shifter lever is dripping gear oil, its torqued properly, is there a trick to stop this, thank-you. | ||
| Blake |
Bill, Pitting can be very problematic on highly stressed highly cycled bearing surfaces. Suggest you purchase a new shaft or a good condition used one. Piece of mind is always worth a few hundred bucks. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Steve01, Make sure to use Locktite on the threads and a gob of silicon RTV where the shifter bushing fastens to the primary case. It cured mine. I even tried an "O" ring, just easier to use RTV. Brad | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sigh.... When a Craftsman (Hoser) and a Scientist (Blake) agree, you *know* you are screwed if you ignore them. I will order a new mainshaft monday. Grrrrr.... another week or so with the bike down, and that tranny cartridge has to *really* come apart now. Now I am debating if I should build my own tool to seat the bearings in the 5th gear drive assembly. My dealer says they will "take care of me", but will take a while to turn it around, and I suspect they don't have the real tool (but don't doubt they would do a fine job with a locally built up rig). But I can bodge up a rig also, I am thinking some washers of varying sizes and thicknesses, a bolt to pin it all together, a belt sander to adjust that last washer, etc. Might be worth a try anyway, I know what the final measurements need to be. Guess I could also find a machine shop and slip somebody a $20 to throw one together over lunch. It would be just a couple cuts on a lathe... Sigh.... Bill | ||
| Reepicheep |
My replacement mainshaft should be at dealer now, will pick it up tomorrow. I found a local Harley dealer (Tri County Harley in Cincy) that was willing to press out old needle bearings from 5th gear drive assembly, and press in new ones, in a timely manner. They goudged me $65 for labor, but they did turn it around in a day, so at least I paid a premium for responsive service, and it does not look like they broke anything. I did not have the stomach to break out the calipers and see if they actually pressed them in the right distances as specified in the instructions I gave them... I don't have the emotional energy to deal with it if they didn't. They look reasonable to the naked eye. Pressed the 5th gear assembly back in last night, it went in easily. I polished up the mating surface, and used a little anti-sieze. I don't know if this was a good thing or not, but it made installation straightforward. It took decent pressure, but not much. I have pictures of all the tools I built, as well as a few assembly steps, and will post them as a summary of the whole operation when I get the tranny rebuilt and back in. Hopefully I will be running again by Saturday evening. Thanks for the help everyone, especially Hoser. Bill | ||
| Hoser |
Bill: You are welcome , the Can / USA border and a couple of thousand miles separate us or I could have been of more assistance. Down the road , when I have some time I will scan some drawings of tools and make them available to those who wish to make their own , I'm waaayyyy too busy right now , so this won't happen for a while. Many of the tools needed to do the repairs on our Buells are quite easy to make if a guy has access to a lathe. | ||
| Awprior |
Primary woes again... I posted up there aways about noises coming from the primary. Tore the whole thing apart again, and two of the shift drum pins were sticking out a bit. Knocked them back in, reassembled the whole thing. Took it out for a spin, noise starts back up again after a few shifts and keeps on going. Tomorrow I'm probably going to tear it back apart again and put the old detent plate back in, incase for some reason it's worn a particular way and that's what the back of the clutch assembly mates with. I originally took it out because the retainer ring broke, and I figured I'd put a new detent plate in anyway. I know that's what is interfering, just can't figure out how. Anyone else have some insight? Thanks, Alex | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hoser... It seems to me (thinking about it) that it would be possible to design a simple tool that would allow you to press out the needle bearings and press back in new ones without having to press that 5th gear drive assembly out of the cases. To press them out, it seems a decent sized threaded rod, with a hollow piston which has the same outside diameter as the inside diameter of the 5th gear assembly, and a spacer (think section of pipe) to go over the outside of sprocket shaft that rests against the (reinstalled) sprocket nut. If that makes any sense. It would allow you to turn a bolt and draw that piston through from the gearcase out through the right side of the 5th gear drive assembly, pulling the needle bearings with it, without stressing (and ruining) that main bearing, and without pressing out the whole assembly. Could you generate enough force with a high grade stainless bolt to get those needle bearings out? I had my dealer do it, so I have *no* idea how hard they were stuck. A minor addition of a hollow version of the Harley tool could also easily be made to press back in the new needle bearings using that same threaded rod. It would save a dangerous step (pressing out the 5th gear assembly) for the home mech, and also avoid destroying an otherwise perfectly servicable main bearing, and save some work. Whadda ya think? You would definately need a lathe, and probably some pretty high grade metal, but I think it would work well. Again thinking about it more, it seems like you could also strategically apply electrical tape to a few spots on a good small triangular file or hacksaw blade, and patiently saw away most of those old needle bearings without touching the 5th gear hollow shaft, and get them out that way more easily (and with the assembly in place). You would still probably need to build the tool to press in the new bearings to the proper depth. AW... I think others have tried pressing those pins back into place, and I don't think anyone has gotten them to stick. A Baker Smooth shift kit will replace the whole drum and pin assembly. Are you sure that is where the noise is coming from? If you have it that far apart, you are probably only 10 minutes away from having the transmission out and on your workbench, which would give you a chance to give everything a really detailed lookover (and look in your fifth gear drive assembly as well... you can feel my pain ). | ||
| Jmartz |
Hoser: Have you been inside the XB primary? What will it take to adapt a Baker 6 speed trans to it? Mill a hole and weld the door or just bolt it like old? Let me know your thoughts... Jose | ||
| Hoser |
Jose: Some intricate machining would have to happen , it would be both interesting and challenging. I have not seen the inside of an XB primary , they are not selling well , let's just say , ....the complaints I see here almost daily about lame sales staff , are fairly accurate and quite widespread . | ||
| Awprior |
Reep, The only thing I've had apart on it was the primary. I didn't touch anything in the tranny, which is why I don't suspect a problem there. I'll probably take it back apart, and if I don't see anything, take the tranny out and inspect that. The main reason I suspect the primary is because that is clearly where the noise is coming from, and I can see a wear groove on the back of the clutch/gear/starter flywheel assembly. I just can't figure out what is causing the interference. I took care of the pins, now my last guess is the new detent plate. Alex | ||
| Reepicheep |
That makes sense AW. If it is grooving the back of the clutch assembly, then (duh!) that is an obvious place to look. There is a good chance your pins just backed out again. Anybody try and weld those things down? Worst case, it's a good reason to go get the Baker kit. | ||
| Awprior |
I'm not sure what causes those pins to back out, or what is necessary to keep them in. I knocked them back in with a brass drift punch last night, thought that would solve the problem. I suppose I'll take another look and let you know what I find. |
