| Author | Message | ||
     Buellistic |
ATT: Lornce The QUAKER STATE filter you are running is Probly the same size as the FORD Motorcraft FL-1A, which provides a 3 QT system. It is cheap enough to change every 2K. If you want the engine to last put a SPORTSTER oil cooler with a BIG TWIN thermostat and change oil and filter every 2K. Have 54K on my 97S3T and the top end has never been off it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In buelling LaFayette | ||
| Lornce |
Hey Buellistic, Been thinking "oil cooling" and wondered about thermostats.... What are the operating parameters of that thermostat? When's it open etc? Where do you suggest plumbing the cooler and thermostat into the system? What sort of oil temp difference is evidenced at the tank with/without the cooler? Always use oil coolers on hotter BMW motors with dramatic effect on running oil temps. But I've been looking at these Buell motors with all their external oil lines and remote (cool) tank and wondered if they'd even need a cooler. Anyone taken temp measurements, gathered data with/without coolers on a variety of motors? Lornce | ||
| Buellistic |
ATT: Lornce Sportster black verical oil cooler PN62497-82A, BIG TWIN black thermostat PN26251-78, FORD Motorcraft FL-1A oil filter,and 3 quarts of Harley-Davidson 20W-50. Change oil and filter every 2K. Have a 97S3T and this schedule has got me to 54K with out the top end ever being "OFF"!! Placed the thermostat back by the rear cylinder as a exciter to activate thermostat. Remember, if make HP there is also a lot of "HEAT" made!!!!!!! In buelling LaFayette | ||
| Ara |
I never needed an oil cooler on my '97 S3 until I got stuck in traffic in Washington DC on a miserably hot and humid day. After it got hot I couldn't cool it off by riding around pretty conservatively - there just wasn't enough cooling provided by the air at ambient temperature. I got a spin-on BilletCool oil cooler and the problem never came back. Drawback: No thermostat. It comes with a naugahide cover that velcros over the cooling fins. You just have to remember to use the cover on cool days. Other than that the thing is foolproof - no hoses to route or leak, etc. Very clean appearance. Russ | ||
| Bomber |
Lornce My Spurgin thermostat opens at approx 180 degrees F . . . . . . never tracked closing temp . . . . .the cooler takes more than 20 degrees (again, F) off my Y2K M2 (rejet, aircleaner and can . . . otherwise stock) on 90+ degree days ... . a lttile more during track days | ||
| Lornce |
Bomber, Russ Thanks for your observations. What were your running temps with/without the coolers you mention? How are your temps monitored? Buellistic, You underestimate the mettle of good hydrocarbons. | ||
| Ara |
Lornce, I didn't have an oil temp guage when I had my overheating problem in Washington DC. I din't know I needed one until it happened! Now I've got a H-D dipstick oil temp guage that replaces the stock oil reservoir plug. Russ | ||
| Bomber |
Lorce I've a shop-made dash that has an Autometer "Phantom" Oil temp guage . . .sender mounted on the dipstick, completely covered in oil .. worst case on the street (95 F, 80+ MPH and above) was approx 235/240 . . . .pegged (250+, I think) during hot track days hope this helps | ||
| Xb9er |
I'm still using Sport-Trans in my Firebolt's trans/primary right now but will switch to synthetic at the next fluid change. 1. Why is it so difficult to obtain the SAE weight and any other specs for H-D Sport-Trans fluid? I just want to get the right synthetic substitute for the bike. 2. From what I see on this webboard many folks are using synthetic 75W-90 gear oil as a substitute for Sport-Trans. Why? Are there any test results that show it has the same properties as Sport-Trans? 3. I want to try Mobil 1 20W-50 in the primary because it will maintain a slightly higher viscosity when hot than 75W-90 gear oil which I think is good for the trans and chain. Is there any reason I shouldn't use 20W-50 in the primary? Mike | ||
| Mikep |
Xb9er, My understanding is that Sport Trans is sort of like a straight 50w. Mobil One 75w-90 Gear lube is just that, 75w-90, it is more viscous than Sport Trans. Also, gear lubes have additional additives in them that are usually good for things like gears. Engine oil may not have the additional stuff that is good for gears. I am running Mobil One 75w-90 Gear Lube, and it is working fine. One thing I have noticed is that the shift quality of my xb9r is reasonably sensitive to the fluid level in the transmission. 2 oz. too high, it shifts hard, 2 oz. too low it shifts hard. I played with my level by syringe'ing out fluid until it shifted nicely. mikep | ||
| Xb9er |
Thanks Mikep. Where did you get the information that Sport Trans is like a straight 50W? (By the way, AMSOIL recommended that I use 20W-50 oil in both the crankcase and the trans/primary when I asked them last month.) I don't necessarily want something more viscous than Sport Trans, I want to know exactly what it is so I can make a better choice with a full synthetic. This stuff also lubes the primary chain so maybe that's why it's not as viscous as gear lube? I have already found the perfect level for fluid in my trans. The H-D mechanic overfilled it and I noticed it immediately because it was so hard to find neutral after that first service visit. So I tested at different levels and mine seems to be perfect at 29 ounces of Sport Trans. I think a lot of people that you hear complaining about XB9 shifting problems just figure they may as well put the whole quart in, but those 2 or 3 extra ounces make a big difference. | ||
| Lornce |
Bomber, Thanks, that's the info I needed. I'll be looking for a couple'a thermostats. | ||
| Bomber |
Lornce No charge, brother . . . . happy to serve | ||
| Blake |
XB9R, "I want to try Mobil 1 20W-50 in the primary because it will maintain a slightly higher viscosity when hot than 75W-90 gear oil which I think is good for the trans and chain. Is there any reason I shouldn't use 20W-50 in the primary?" Absolutely. Gear oil, as MikeP said, contains additives that are not included in engine oil. Your transmission appreciates those additives to protect it from excessive wear. How do you know 20W50 is higher viscosity at high temperatures than 75W90 gear lube? MikeP, Engine oil and gear oil viscosity scales are two entirely different things. The viscosity of 90 weight gear oil is actually close to that of 40 or 50 weight engine oil. So as XB9R alludes to, 20W50 may actually be more viscous at high temperature than 75W90 gear oil. I'm not sure myself, which is why I am asking him to provide some reference for that assertion. | ||
| Blake |
Also, I do not believe that Sport Trans is a straight viscosity lubricant. I sure hope not. | ||
| Xb9er |
I don't claim to be an oil expert but I want this discussion to come to a conclusion on this topic to end the frustration!!  I am probably reading the chart incorrectly so please correct me if I am wrong. The way I interpret the chart, the low end of the viscosity range for the 20W-50 is higher than the low end of the viscosity range for the 75W-90 at 100 °C (212 °F). In addition, the narrow range of viscosity for 20W-50 makes it more stable (I think) at higher temps. I am also going by the recommendation of AMSOIL to use 20W-50 oil in both the crankcase and the trans/primary for Sportster engines (including the Firebolt, I was told). References: Ed Hackett Motor Oil Primer, AMSOIL in H-D engines | ||
| Xb9er |
20W-50 oil in XB9 trans/primary So what's more important in this scenario of 20W-50 oil versus 75W-90 gear oil, the viscosity or the additives? I maintain it's the viscosity. I also maintain that the additives in the synthetic oil are more than adequate for the transmission and primary chain of my Firebolt. What are your thoughts? Thanks. Mike (XB9er) | ||
| Bomber |
my buddy the petro-chem engineer (who has zero interest in things internal combustion) sez gear lube oil additives are, among other things, designed to resist "shearing forcres" that are apparently created by the force of gear teeth meshing, and that the additives in crankcase oil are designed with other missions altogether in mind . .. .resisting the corrosive effects of combustion by-products, ability to operate as desired over a wider temp range, and so on when I asked if it made sense to run crankcase oil in the gearbox, he said, "sure (laughing), just order your new gears now." this seem to be approaching the spokes thread found on the Denizens of Doom list some time agao (not haveing been around for the contact pact discussion here ;-} ) | ||
| Xb9er |
In response to Bomber In many other motorcycles, the gear box shares oil with the engine. Wouldn't the shear stresses in those gear boxes be similar to those in the transmission of my bike? The Mobil 1 web site touts their V-Twin oil as being "shear stable" as well. For comparison, I found some more viscosity numbers: -----------------------------Viscosity(cSt) -----Oil--------------------40°C(104°F)----100°C(212°F) Mobil 1 75W-90 gear-------106--------------14.7 Mobil 1 20W-50 V-twin----- 52--------------17.0 Mobil 1 15W-50 car oil-----125--------------17.4 H-D Sport Trans fluid------N/A-------------N/A I'm not sure how to interpret this. Not an oil expert. Many of my friends that ride Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha and use synthetics swear by Mobil 1 15W-50 full synthetic car oil. They say their gears run smooth and they have never had problems. It has the highest viscosity for the given temperature range. Maybe that's the way to go? Is it better to be closer to the operating temperature viscosity sooner, 52 cSt at 40°C(104°F) for the 20W-50 oil, or later as with the others? Personally, I,m all for faster warmup time. Damn it all, will H-D just tell us the SAE numbers for Sport Trans!!!L Mike | ||
| Bomber |
XB9er yessir, but your Buell has a much more manly grearbox than a Honda ;-} Seriously, I have expended my knowledge on the subject entirely, I've shared what's been told to me by trusted sources, and, if asked any more questions, I'll be forced to start making things up. Seems there's enough urban legends around, I don't need to add to it . . .. Me, I'm going with the anecdotal research done by folks on the boars . .. .. . got a quart of Mobil synth gear lube that will be used when I change this winter . . . . . | ||
| Xb9er |
Manly yes, but she likes it too! I simply want to use a full synthetic instead of the semi-synthetic Sport Trans because synthetic is just better. If I knew what Sport Trans was, I would go for a near identical synthetic substitute. It just stinks that noone can tell me what Sport Trans really is. I guess I should look at it as a bonus that these engines have separate transmissions from crankcases. We don't have to compromise. We can use the fluid that's best for the transmission's performance and oil that is best for the engine. I just want to know if Mobil 1 gear lube is the best thing for this application or not. I'm also intent on buying as few Harley-Davidson products as possible. I don't want to have to go to any H-D stealerships for fluids, filters, brake pads, etc. As I said, I am no oil expert, so I welcome all useful information, comments, criticism, and ridicule. Mike | ||
| Mikep |
Xb9er, More info about motorcycle transmissions that are designed to be lubricated by the same oil as the engine is . . . The gears and other components are made slightly more robust because the engine oils do not have the gear lube additives (or at least the same amount of additive) that gear lube has. I do not know how much wider gear teeth are designed, for example, but the goal is to achieve comparable Life with engine oil. The additives used in gear lubes do include, Extreme Pressure (EP) additives (the Sulfur smell), I do not know about shear stabilizers. Mobil One 75w-90 has worked well in my XB9R. One interesting observation is that my transmission seems to shift better COLD. mikep | ||
| X1glider |
Xb9er, yes, tis true the wet sump bikes share the engine oil in the tranny. They also share combustion byproducts, heat and internal air pressure. The engine oil has detergents that keep the byproducts from interfering with the tranny and cluth and help keep the surfaces clean of carbon build up and additives that keep the fluid from foaming. The wet sump bikes also don't make the torque that a Buell does. This is important because a full synthetic oil can make a Buell clutch slip when it should be grabbing. A semi-synthetic in the primary should be fine, I'm sure the sport trans is one too. The fact that the primary, clutch and tranny are separate from the crankcase is a bonus to us. It allows us to select a lube that is better suited to do a particular job. The wet sump bikes compromise by expecting a single lube to do all kinds of functions just ok as opposed to having separate fluids that do their job very well. Also, the viscosity is less important than the additives and detergents. It's important, but less important. KY has viscosity but it doesn't mean it should be in my tranny. Without the proper additives and detergents a fluid will fail and destroy the components it's supposed to be protecting. No one I've ever met has had a problem with sport-trans. If you are intent on buying non-HD, the mobil 1 gear oil should work as long as it is no more than a semi-synthetic. A light shockproof would work too. Stay away from heavy shockproof, bad reports... Wow, this is the first technical topic we've had in a month!!! | ||
| Xb9er |
H-D Oil FAQ on AMSOIL website I forgot to submit this quote from the AMSOIL website that talks about this subject. What do you make of that? Do you think AMSOIL really knows the Sport Trans specs? Is H-D just re-packaging 20W-50 oil as Sport Trans and then charging us a couple extra bucks? After reading the FAQ on the website, I e-mailed AMSOIL specifically to ask what oil types they would recommend for a Firebolt and they said 20W-50 for both the crankcase and trans/primary, just as the website suggests. Mike | ||
| Xb9er |
If my transmission and primary chain were separate, I would use 75W-90 in the tranny. As I said in a previous post, in choosing an alternative to Sport Trans, I am also looking at the requirements of the primary because in my motor it shares fluid with the tranny. I guess what I am saying is right now I assume none of you know jack squat  but I am also assuming that AMSOIL tested Sport Trans and knows the specs and that is why I want to use 20W-50 (Mobil 1, not AMSOIL) as they recommend. I am not convinced that 75W-90 gear lube is the right stuff to use based on responses here and what I've read elsewhere. I'm not the type who will use something just because everybody else does. So, anyone have evidence that 75W-90 is the best in this specific application? Do you know something that I don't? Statements like "It feels OK in my bike" and "I haven't had any problems with it" just don't cut it for me. Sport Trans wasn't designed for the sportbike riding style, was it? I hate that it takes too long to get it warmed up. Other than that, I haven't had any problems with it. Mike. | ||
| Hootowl |
Don't worry Bob, no one is going to stuff KY in your tranny. Maybe your rear end... | ||
| X1glider |
Xb, you obviously have your mind made up already, so why do you keep debating it? HD does not repackage an automotive oil and lube. They have their own formulas. As far as the Amsoil goes, their suggestion of 20w50 sounds like they're picking a compromise between 75w90 and 10w40 because they don't have an appropriate fluid available. I suggest looking at Royal Purple and Redline also as their suggestions are different than Amsoil. "Sport Trans wasn't designed for the sportbike riding style, was it?" Can you name a fluid that is? The fact that a Buell revs 1500 rpm higher doesn't change the lube's duties. 1500 rpm is nothing. Like I said, nobody I've met, rider or service tech, has had a problem due to using Sport-trans. There have been problems related to poor choice of an alternative fluid. This KV topic is chock full of reviews, data, problems and observations of different fluids from users and the manufacturers. Go through them instead of asking us to retype already existing posts. Use what you want, the suggestions have already been given. Just don't come crying to us when shit happens. | ||
| Mikep |
Xb9er, I do apologize for not having anything other than my own subjective information about Mobil One 75w-90 Gear Lube. I am very interested in your results with Mobil One 20w-50 Car Oil, it costs a bit less and like your data shows, has the highest viscosity at temperature. Try it and let us know what you think. mikep | ||
| Blake |
X1G, I disagree with your statement that "...a full synthetic oil can make a Buell clutch slip when it should be grabbing." That is not true. It's one of those legends based in part truth. Nallin Racing filled my tranny with Royal Purple full synthetic 75W90. I immediately noticed a huge improvement in shifting action and after hundreds of miles on the track and a night at the drag strip I have yet to see any clutch slippage. My engine puts out almost 90 FT-LBs of torque. That is anecdotal, but I simply know for a fact that a full synthetic oil in and of itself will absolutely NOT cause a Buell clutch to slip. Possibly a formulation with a high concentration of friction modifiers might cause problems. I wouldn't put STP or the like in my tranny. XB9R, I agree. It positively stinks that Buell/HD will not provide viscosity and/or grade specifications for our transmission oil. However, you are making some very wild assumptions in your thinking about using engine oil in your transmission. I'm going to be direct with you on this topic. I'll be using gear lube in my Buell transmission. I think it is completely idiotic to put engine oil in a Buell transmission. Neither viscosity nor additives are more important than the other. The additives simply help to maintain adequate viscosity under severe conditions. In a Buell transmission, you won't have one without the other. You seem to think that higher viscosity is an advantage. It is not. If it were, you are free to fill your transmission with 100w130 gear oil of the type that is used in heavy equipment transmissions. But that would be stupid wouldn't it? Again, if one is able to take advantage of the additional EP additives found in a purpose built gear oil, one would be making a VERY poor decision to not use such a gear oil in one's transmission. The primary is simply a chain driven gearbox. It too can benefit from gear oil and EP additives not found in engine oil. I don't know why you are so concerned about it specifically. The primary chain/sprockets actually comprise a very light duty application for the transmission lubricant. Also, a gearbox has absolutely no need for all the combustion specific additives found in engine oil. As far as Amsoil and Redline and their advice goes... I don't trust them. Some of their marketing tactics border on those of snake oil salesmen. I trust Mobil. I trust HD/Buell. Finally, the viscosity numbers you posted are very interesting. Where did you find them? | ||
| Xb9er |
Take it easy. Please don't take my posts the wrong way. I'm not debating. People have responded to my question about substituting a full synthetic product for Sport Trans by saying that they use 75W-90 synthetic gear oil; then AMSOIL recommends the use of 20W-50 synthetic motorcycle oil; Redline used to recommend Shockproof Heavy, now I think they changed that to gear oil or shockproof light (why?); someone (on another forum) said that Royal Purple recommends using their 15W-40 oil and that person used it and liked it. Re-read my post. I did not say that H-D repackages automotive oils. I was being facetious and suggesting that they must repackage their own 20W-50 oil and sell it as Sport Trans. I've read that Sunoco is (or at least used to be) the oil and lube supplier for H-D. You said "The fact that Buell revs 1500 rpm higher doesn't change the lube's duties. 1500 rpm is nothing." OK, I accept that and admit I was reaching a bit on that one. I don't want to stop using Sport Trans because it causes problems in my bike (it doesn't). I don't like H-D products, but more importantly, I want to use a full synthetic because they are accepted as being superior to dino or semi-synthetic fluids in modern motorcycles. Believe me I have searched the whole BBS on this topic. I've exhausted my supply of keywords to search on, I think! I am not asking people to retype already existing posts. Just asking for information and/or to be pointed in the right direction so I can find the information. This started because I have not found the answer to this one basic question: What is the SAE number for Harley-Davidson Sport Trans fluid? I appreciate the help and suggestions everyone has provided. Thanks. Mike. |
