| Author | Message | ||
     Lightning_strikes_now |
I found Nallin Racing's website. They have a lot of engine performance parts for the Buells. I read that their cylinders are plated only and don't have pressed in cast iron sleaves. What do you guys know about Nallin Racing? Are they a good source for performance upgrades for the new XB's? How do the plated cylinders wear and perform compared to a cast iron sleaved cylinder? I do know that the Japanese imports use this plated technology on their street bikes. Lightning Strikes Now | ||
| Dago |
I'm sure Nallin's is a great company since there is so much talk about them here. I believe there are even a few boarders with the big bore kit by now. This said, I called them about 7 months ago to ask some questions about 1250 and 1420 cc kits for my 12. Perhaps I caught the guy on a bad day, but when I asked him to see a dyno run of the bike before mods and one after mods for both kits to substantiate their claim that their kit will turn my bike into a "rice-burning, wheelie at will machine”, here’s the response I got: "Bottomline, no one in the industry, and especially not a smaller company such as our own, has the time, money or resources to do the kind of testing you're suggesting. S&S does no such thing, Zipper's does no such thing, Harley-Davidson and Buell don't even do such things." I still have the email. Amazing huh? -- | ||
| Hogs |
DAGO,, Good stuff Buddy keeping them emails I mostly always do the same :-) That sure makes me think about them a little further and second thoughts and then some more.............Thanks Again our own, has the ""time, money or resources"" to do the kind of testing, This should not have been said | ||
| Dago |
Yeah, I can assure you they lost at least one customer with that response. I'm sure it matters little to Mr. Shilling, their Performance Consultant, though. -- | ||
| Stealthxb |
Lightning_strikes_now.. Nallin Racing is very well respected around here and there are not many who will have negative things to say. I cannot respond to your questions directly, but I would not hesitate to send my bike to Nallin if I had the money. | ||
| Henrik |
Aaron at NRHS is a man obsessed with perfection. Won't steer you wrong. Henrik | ||
| Ingemar |
Dago, So you called them and got an email response? Whatever. All I have heard about Nallin is good. I won't hasitate spending money there if I wanted something they have to offer. | ||
| Dago |
My bad Ingemar. I emailed them and got an emailed response. As I said in my first post, I'm sure Nallins is a great company due to the fact so many boarders support them. I also indicated that I could have caught him on a bad day. I was simply providing my first-hand experience with them. -- | ||
| Blake |
Dago, Did you bother to visit their web site and peruse the dyno charts they have posted? Plenty of information there. Sounds to me like you asked for something different than just a dyno chart. Please post the text of the email, including your request and the response. That will straighten this issue out. | ||
| Dago |
Blake, At that time, they had no dyno's posted. My initial email (below) asked for 5 dyno's for each of their options listed plus one of a bone stock 12. I no longer see 5 options on their site. So I can't remember what the original 5 options were. -----My original email----- Do you have any plans to post some Dyno results for your new products listed on the following page anytime soon? http://www.nrhsperformance.com/ekitbuellxb12r.shtml It would be nice to see 6 charts all coming from the same Dyno: 5 charts for each of your options listed on the page above as well as a chart of a bone stock xb12. Again, they should all be from the same machine (at least). I realize how difficult it would be to dyno all 6 options on the same day. I've spoken with you guys on the phone a couple of times now and want to make a final decision. But I'll need more to go on than marketing fluff like "the typical result is a substantial increase in torque and horsepower over a wide rpm range". Although I've heard nothing but great things about your products, I'm sure you wouldn't drop the cash either without the proper proof. Would you? Thanks, David ----Their reply----- David, Unfortunately, we don't have an XB12 to do any in-house testing on and we have yet to receive any hard data back from any of the customers we've sent these kits out to so far. We expect to see numbers slightly higher than the matching kits using Thunderstorm heads (of which we've literally sold thousands), so the dyno results you see in the dynoroom for the 1250 and 1420cc kits for the older Buells will be very representative of the gains you will see, minus the advantage of the new XB heads which have been good for another 5-7 rwhp in every application we've tested them on so far. Bottomline, no one in the industry, and especially not a smaller company such as our own, has the time, money or resources to do the kind of testing you're suggesting. S&S does no such thing, Zipper's does no such thing, Harley-Davidson and Buell don't even do such things. We will however post the data we get both in house and from our customers all over the U.S. as more and more of these kits hit the street. We stand by our reputation for making great power, a reputation on which we base our marketing "fluff" as you called it. We hope you will choose NRHS for your performance build, and if you have any specific questions about the package you look to assemble please don't hesitate to call. Thanks for the inquiry, Justin Schilling Performance Consultant NRHS V-Twin Performance 303-833-4500 ---- But honestly, Blake, I didn't realize there was an issue to straighten out. Lightening_Strikes_now asked what people on this board knew about Nallins. So I posted what I knew, with two caveats: 1 - That I could have caught them on a bad day 2 - That many members of this board have very good things to say about them -- | ||
| Reepicheep |
The upgrades have millions of different variables depending on your goals and your money. Even the starting point of each engine is different, many variables there as well. They have two choices. Produce every possible variation of parts for every variation of engines, and run enough dyno tests on it to get a reliable result, and do it with enough different bikes to account for normal variations within models, and post those. Or, they can publish the results they have achieved with the customer configurations selected if the customer wants to share, and if the customer took the route that NHRS suggested. Lets see, at *least* 9 variations of heads / porting levels. At *least* 5 different types of cams. At *least* 5 viable exhausts. At *least* 3 different viable intakes. Probably three different compression ratios to consider. You would need at least 5 dyno runs to get something to publish, and would probably want to see it reproduced on at least 5 different builds (assuming they all match, more if an outlyer shows up). Thats 50,625 dyno runs, with 10,125 engine builds, just to get the crappy data. You really need closer to 32 samples of each bike (and be sure they are random samples) in order to have statistically valid data. If I were considering them, I would judge them by published dynos for the work they did, and evaluating how well they met the goals stated for the mods. I would pick one that they had that matches my goals, and start tweaking from there to make it match what I want and can afford, and rely on their expertise to judge variations I might introduce. When it is all said and done, I would still realize that it is to some degree a crapshoot, so I would make sure I am working with a company with a good reputation for results, and a good history if integrity and customer commitment. I would use Nallin in a heartbeat. My only interaction with them has been wasting a bunch of Aarons time as he gave me free advice about solving a pretty serious engine problem. Same goes for Cycle-Rama. Pammy has done the same thing for me. I would not hesitate to use either. (Message edited by reepicheep on September 27, 2004) | ||
| Darthane |
Dago, the original post by you portrayed them in a very negative light. Seeing the entire e-mail helps a LOT, and makes me say that it was an unfair characterization on your part. I don't think they were being disparaging or in any way attempting to scam you with their statements - just telling it like it is, and attempting to give you some stuff to look at to give you a good idea of what to expect. Quite frankly your request of seeing all 5 options on the SAME bike is a little out there. That's a LOT of time and money invested for nothing more than a dyno run (labor, parts, break-in time, dyno time/tuning, etc). NHRS is a small company that lets their customers speak for them, much to their benefit. | ||
| Zx9rmal |
Caught the guy on a bad day? His response was very professional to this reader. Dyno charts are one thing, many personal recommendations are another. | ||
| Josh_ |
If you want to see dyno charts for a NRHS 1250kit pick up the latest Hot Rod Bikes magazine. | ||
| M1combat |
"Caught the guy on a bad day? His response was very professional to this reader. " Agreed. Some people just can't take anything but a sugar coating. Just for the record - Aaron seems like a very good person and seems very knowledgeable. I don't think they've put together too many XB's, but the ones I've heard about have been for racers. Like it says on their website (as I recall) racers don't want their numbers published. They are pretty high though  . I'll be using Nallin as soon as I need to  . | ||
| Ingemar |
Thanx Dago for posting your mail and the response in their entirety. Read Darthane's post above and you have my response as well. I couldn't have said it any better than that. | ||
| Dago |
M1, I wasn't looking for sugar coating. I was looking for dyno's. At the time, there were none on the site. I found it very odd at the time that they were selling products for which they had no publicly proven results. I simply wasn't sold by their marketing lingo. Call me the skeptic... -- | ||
| Sammigs |
Bottom line is Aaron and Justin are very professional, kind and honest people in my opinion. When the 1050 kit was first introduced I needed some input from these guys with a problem and sure enough Aaron gives me a call. That's the kind of guy I want to do business with. Call Justin anytime and he always gives you his undivided attention. Your never placed on hold or asked if he could call you back. I doubt they only treat me like this. I would not hesitate to spend more money with NRHS in the future. Sam Migliori (Message edited by Sammigs on September 28, 2004) | ||
| Dago |
But for the record, I'm happy to hear that they are a company to trust. I frequent this board and heed what I read in most cases. This said, I'm glad to see that Nallin has proven themselves to so many BadWebbers. For I'm almost certain that no one here would offer such strong opinions on a product or company without first hand experience. -- | ||
| Henrik |
I too think the reply was professional and to the point. And pretty much on the mark, considering the interesting numbers for testing posted by Reep - paints a scary picture of the amount of work involved. My guess is that Dago - and myself as well for that matter - didn't realize the effort involved in a complete and truthfull answer to the question. Peace Henrik | ||
| M1combat |
Sorry Dago - I didn't mean to imply that you were looking for a sugar coating as such, but that you had received an e-mail that was not sugar coated and weren't pleased with it. Didn't exactly mean to offend if I did. Again, sorry. | ||
| Dago |
Naah. No offense taken at all. It's discussions such as this that keep me on this board.  -- | ||
| Buelliedan |
Dago, I have to agree with the others. Your request was almost impossible to accomodate. The costs involved would be astronomical and could never be recovered. The reply you received from Justin was spot-on honest and was in no way offensive. As already said you made your story out to appear like they were blowing you off ans making excuses. I did not see that reply making any excuses. Aaron(owner of NRHS) is one of the nicest guys I have ever met and he has always treated me well. The company is not Nallin anymore however. Its name is NRHS. | ||
| Ingemar |
Just an observation .... We haven't answered Lightning_strikes_now question on How do the plated cylinders wear and perform compared to a cast iron sleaved cylinder? ... I thought it was an interesting question. | ||
| M1combat |
Well, the point of the plating is to reduce friction and heat. My absolutely uneducated guess is that they would wear a little slower due to less heat and friction. I don't know how thick the plating is so I don't know if the plating can be bored. | ||
| Dago |
I originally stated that they must be a great company due to the support received here. Thus implying that what I experienced may not be what others have experienced. I never said the response was offensive. I implied that I felt it was silly that a company could advertise a product to make more HP, yet they couldn't provide proof that it actually did so for my model. I never said that I was treated unfairly, that anyone offended me in anyway, or that anyone was rude. I didn’t call them crooks, thieves, or for that matter, say anything derogatory about Nallins, NHRS, or any employee thereof. The simple fact remains that I still do not understand how a company can advertise that they make a performance product for my XB12, and yet can't provide actual test results with that product is installed on an XB12. I'm not being argumentative. I'm even willing to concede that I don't understand and therefore need an explanation. So I'll formally ask the question in an attempt to get a concise answer void of the defensive emotions my original post has brought forth. QUESTION: How is it that a company can provide a performance enhancing part, make a marketing claim that it adds substantial power across the power band, and yet have no dyno proof of their claim? Is it simply due to the fact that it worked on the older 1200’s, and then should therefore work on the new ones +5-7 ponies due to the new style heads? Seriously, I’m not being sarcastic or argumentative in any way. I’m attempting to get beyond the “NHRS is great, so don’t question them” responses so that I can better understand why requesting the dynos in the first place was so ludicrous. If I would have requested just one dyno of just one of their options, would that have been better? -- | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Dago, the XB engine is close enough in operation characteristics that data from a Tuber engine package can be used as a projection of the kinds of increase an XB can expect from their engine packages. They have found with the configurations they have run on the differing H-D style engine platforms enough similarity they can make projections of what to expect. Its not like your comparing an engine kit from a Tuber to a TL1000 or Aprilia Mille engine kit. Your comparing it to another aircooled 45degree common crankpin pushrod V-Twin. They have used the XB heads on Tuber engines with even more of an increase so they know the XB heads flow better, so the kits where they have done that are even closer to accurate for an XB engine. Notice I said "Engine Package" These are proven matched style components, not just picking various pieces and expecting them to work in Harmony with each other. (Message edited by wyckedflesh on September 27, 2004) | ||
| Buelliedan |
Dago, You basically answered your own questions. Yes, if it works on an older 1200 it will work the same on an XB1200 since they are using the same basic platform. There really is no difference cylinder design between your XB12 and my X1. Yes, they have different fuel injection but they both have the same bore and stroke. XBs just have better heads stock than the X1. | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
They have different fuel injection. Just curious. How does one go about changing the fuel injection on XB to compensate for the bigger displacement? What I'm try to see is whether the Nallin mod with stock ECM will improve performance over the stock XB. | ||
| Buelliedan |
You need a race ECM if you are doing those kind of mods |
