| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
None of the Japanese cruisers are integrated or built to the level of quality that H-D's are. The Japanese use spot welded exposed seems on their tanks. The integration of oil lines, coolant lines and wiring on Japanese cruisers does not compare to what Harley-Davidson does. The quality of the finishes, both paint and chrome and power-coating is much better on a Harley-Davidson than on any Japanese cruiser I've seen. And I've seen them all. The quality of the side-stand on a Harley-Davidson blows away any I've seen on a Japanese motorcycle. A Harley-Davidson motorcycle is the culmination of quality American rolling artwork that also makes a darn good motorcycle. No Japanese cruiser comes close to the total quality package integration that Harley-Davidson has achieved. Just my opinion based on scrutiny and observation. The Japanese have improved. | ||
| Deerhunter17 |
EEGGzactly!! | ||
| 984_cc |
The sidestand on a fellow coworker's H-D looks cheap, cheap, cheap. Quality on Japanese bikes is superior. Especially since they are truly 'mass'-produced. However, I don't like cruisers, so you may be right in the that the genuine article is better than the metric stuff. Cruisers aren't really Japan's bag. Wouldn't you say? They pump 'em out to make money in the American market. Their main-stream stuff- like sportbikes and retro musclebikes, are superior. No doubt about it. Paint and everything else. Especially wiring. I paid only half the price for my ZR-7 and it has twice the quality of my Buell. I can compare them everyday. | ||
| Outrider |
Ahhh...Apples to Apples. I can relate to this. But now we are talking Red Delicious vs Granny Smith's. LOL Why do I get the feeling that almost all bikes are "different in every sense."  (Message edited by Outrider on August 09, 2004) | ||
| Court |
>>>>Quality on Japanese bikes is superior Interesting statement. What do you base that on? Let me toss one out for you to ponder. . . "There have never been a more reliable motorcycle manufactured than the Buell XB platform." I don't have one darn thing, in terms of PROOF, to back that up with yet. I suspect we'll see some J.D. Powers owners survey and warranty data. I stay clear of citing the obvious current Honda, BMW and Suzuki issues. Just curious. Court | ||
| Court |
>>>If they would like to really sell Buells call them Harley Davidsons. Duh. Its called, BRAND RECOGNITION or the art of marketing Sometimes being the "small skunk works" makes something even more attractive. Can you imagine a FORD Silver Shadow?....how about a Chevrolet Elan. I'm posting a picture of the Chrysler one of the kids that works for Vickie drives. Tell him about Brand Recognition.   | ||
| Pammy |
Blake, as passionate as you may be, I think that are jaded just a tad. Let me tell you about just ONE bike....keep in mind I have been in this business since I was a teenager. In 1984, a gentleman brings me a Honda Magna (VF750C) He had had an accident on this bike(looked like multiple times). He wanted an estimate. I did an estimate. Cosmetic damage only. He didn't pick up the bike....I called and called and called. Turns out the man died and no one retrieved the bike. I sent letters, etc...still I had the bike in it's delivered(to me) condition. A few years went by and the bike sat in the corner of my storage area, never being cranked or even looked at. We decided that no one was going to come for the bike and it was in the way(we do Harley performance work for Gods sake!) and it didn't represent our clientel so we exported it out to one of our storage containers. It sat there for a few more years in the damp and heat and SPIDERS!!!! About a year ago, I was in that particular container and saw the bike way back in the back of the trailer and decided...what the hello...someone would want at least parts off it. I had the guys drag it out we juiced up a new battery cleaned the float bowl and hooked up the test tank with fresh gas....The thing cranked! What the heck? We cleaned the bike, polished all the shiny parts...replaced absolutely zero chrome and the bike looked like new. Well I replaced the tank(it was crashed) and had the bike painted black(I hate red) and folks thought the bike was new. We had someone riding it every weekend...we used it as a loaner bike and the thing NEVER skipped a beat. Of course being who we are we had to add a jet kit and dyno-tuned it. But I sold that bike about 2 months ago and the new owner is happy as a pig in mud. He thinks it's great. Rides it all the time. The moral of the true story is there are no bad motorcycles...I myself have owned several. Some I liked better than others. But I liked them all. | ||
| Brucelee |
Not really a cruiser fan. I must say that I do love that old VMAX. Rode a buddy's once and the torque is so there! Heavier than I like but not heavy for a cruiser type I think. | ||
| Glitch |
The moral of the true story is there are no bad motorcycles... I no longer wonder why ya'll did a friend of mine's ZREX. Good story by the way. | ||
| Darthane |
O_o ... Viper... | ||
| Odie |
I'm with Pammy; if it has two wheels there is bound to be something about it I like. Motorcycles in general I love, some I lust after.......... | ||
| Deerhunter17 |
True, but once again, I think the personal attention to detail is only present in the HD line of bikes. I can't compare my XB to a foreign "crotch rocket" style bike, cause I never looked at one up close, never liked them. HD's HAVE left me stranded, no Japanese bike ever has. Still, like the use of newer styling, technical advances, and innovations of the XB, which brought me bake to what I feel is a motorcycle fabricated with higher quality fit and finish... just my honest opinion based on my personal experiences. ( as a rider and a fabricator ) | ||
| 984_cc |
Court- This is only because you asked, I'm not forcing anyone to change their minds. This is how I feel- High quality is something you can identify easy, because identifying the flaws becomes more difficult as the quality goes up. The cost of the product is a major player here. Just because one manufacturer does something different does not mean it is of a higher quality. If Davidson does it different than the Japanese, who's to say the Japanese couldn't do it Davidson's way, but even better. Remember in the 80's, when a huge tariff was put on Japanese bikes coming into America? This was an effort to save Harley-Davidson from death. It was also suggested to H-D to improve their quality standards. They are still trying to catch up. True, there may be some aspects of H-D where they exceed the quality of a Japanese machine (I’m not just talking about cruisers, by the way). But, the overall package falls short. Why do you think Japanese products boomed (and still are) throughout the world in the past 40 years? They build high-quality products that are affordable. I’m not saying they are the best at everything (but they are at a lot of things), but when it comes to volume motorcycles (doesn’t include hand-made, extremely low production bikes), they are the best at controlling their quality. I grew up reading my Dad's huge collection of old 60's and 70's motorcycle magazines. I fell in love with the iron that was before my time. The H-D's fell short back then too, according to the test riders. I eventually inherited my Dad's 1972 Kawasaki H2 Mach IV. Some people have a natural knack for spotting quality (or to be more accurate- imperfections). I, for instance, will admit to being a obsessional perfectionist and can spot the tiniest flaw in any product. I'm the type that looks to choose the best one out the lot in a store. People say I am extremely picky. It can be an advantage for a company to hire someone like me, to do QC work, which I do, although QC is not my main job. The company I work for (they make medical devices) has me inspect product going out the door because they know I will catch the smallest imperfections. Make it better- improve customer relations- sell more- lower the cost of the final product. I base my overall opinion about Japanese bikes having superior quality on experience- having owned more that twenty motorcycles in my life so far (I’m only 26), and being around bikes of all types all of the time (besides my own, I have many friends with bikes), I have the opportunity to inspect and nitpick every bike I see. I also think many European bikes are of better quality than H-D. But for the performance, value and quality you get with Japanese bikes, you can’t beat them. You can't account for taste though. I agree that all bikes are good (or at least fun). Having fun is what it's all about. To make myself more believable- with my bias towards Japanese quality being superior, I still love my Buell, and know that it has a lot of unique features and character that are lacking in a lot of MODERN Japanese bikes. This bike is just fun, and I mean FUN!! to ride. | ||
| Darthane |
Ack, you said the magic 'Q' word. Read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" (if you haven't already) and then try defining quality! Great read... | ||
| Dasbuell |
Don't ya think they all (most anyway) want to... (make the best bike) and in their opinion they make the best bike for their investment (manufacturing cost/available technology to that company vs sellable price/profit margin) that they can? Kinda goes like the little Calvin whizzing on the Ford-Chevy-Dodge in the back of pick-up trucks. You will not convince each of those people that the other truck is near as good as the one he/she owns... be it Chevy, Dodge or Ford. Buy what you like... you will find good and bad in each... and lemons in them all!!! (formerly dasxb9s) | ||
| 984_cc |
Yep, I said you can't account for taste, didn't I. There'll always be the one that got built on a Monday morning. Those Cobra Motors enduro bikes you can get for $1200.00 are a good example of crap. But I bet alot of kids out there love theirs. The company I work for has recently got it's ISO certification. The quality has actually suffered, because everyone is so worried and hung-up in the paperwork and following the 'correct procedure' instead of actually trying to pay attention to what makes something well-built. To me it's the tiny things that all add up. Like all the lint flecks and debris in the clearcoat on my XB's wheels. It just doesn't look good. This is a little off subject but this is a good example of recent experiences- I bought an American made electric scooter a couple of years ago. It's a Badsey Hot Scoot. It was supposed to be a 'high quality' American made (handbuilt) with fiberglass bodywork electric scooter with no rivals. I wanted it because it's fast and can be easily modified to go even faster. Check out their website- www.badsey.com. I paid $1000.00 (over the Internet) for it with high expectations. It turned out to be a very poor example of quality. The thing is built like a piece of crap. But it's fun. I have a different electric scooter that I got first and paid a quarter of the price for. It was made in Taiwan, believe it or not. It has full suspension compared to the Badsey's no suspension setup (which is funny since Badsey markets and recommends that their scooter only be used for 'Offroad use only'. The Taiwanese scooter has the most beautiful aluminum frame welds I have ever seen on anything comparable. They are flawless. The wiring and everything else is superior to the Badsey. Another example would be Apple Computer. Apple is doing great with innovation and the quality in their products is astounding. | ||
| 984_cc |
I love how these threads go off the subject!  | ||
| Glitch |
The company I work for has recently got it's ISO certification. Sorry to hear that. | ||
| Blake |
"I paid only half the price for my ZR-7 and it has twice the quality of my Buell. I can compare them everyday." Then you won't mind giving us examples to back up your claim, cause from what I've seen and from what the moto-journos say, you are full of it. | ||
| Outrider |
Gee, ISO certification and inspections didn't help a particular Chinese manufacturer I know. They still lost almost all their contracts. Seems some ISO inspectors are only human and can either have a bad day, be mislead or be influenced. Don't feel bad. It happens to UL in the USofA too! | ||
| Reepicheep |
I have a powerbook wallstreet. It blew out both hinges in short order, which apple refused to deal with for less then the price of a new laptop, has a crappy power cord (rca jack with no strain relief) and uses a DVD decoder card that was abandoned by Apple for any modern operating system (even though they sold it and they write the operating system). Buell has treated me (even with my grocery list of problems with my Cyclone) far better then Apple ever did. No big deal, I just won't buy another. All companies make mistakes. | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Outrider, There is ISO certification, and then there is actually FOLLOWING the quality manual they implemented. Being "certified" doesn't mean didly squat. It just means you've done the steps to document your f-ups, and find ways to improve the process. But actually following your quality manual, few do... | ||
| 984_cc |
Blake- I don't have to prove anything to anyone. This is all my opinion. If you read my posts carefully, you will see that. I don't care what you think. I was just letting my thoughts be known. The reason alot of mags didn't like the ZR-7 (mine is a 2000, naked version), is because it wasn't all fancy and high-tech like most other sportbikes. Alot of mags have also put down the XBs too. I don't listen to what they say. I like to find things out for myself. I found that the ZR-7 is very fun and has some of the same qualities that I like my Buell for. I like how it has the old-school air-cooled Kawasaki inline-4. It's a bullet-proof engine by the way. Why would I put down my Buell for no reason. There is no reason to lie to you guys. This is just where this conversation has lead to. I see them side by side every single day. I use them everyday. I know my Kawasaki has better quality. That's enough for me. Doesn't make me like my Buell any less. As far as the Apple thing- I don't actually own one, but two of my brothers have Powerbook G4s and a guy at work has a G5. I am impressed with the initial experience I have had with them. Sorry you have had bad luck Reepicheep. I know Apple is always improving their designs. As I said before, I know companies make mistakes. And some companies that make good stuff can also be a pain in the arse to deal with. I'm done with this thread guys. | ||
| Court |
984cc: Thank you, first off, for a learned, thought out and well considered response. I think we agree. Let me add a few things. Harley-Davidson went to the United States Gov't and requested that the import tariffs be removed prior to their expiration. The tariffs in the first place we not (I suppose you could make a case for "partially" ) due to Harley-Davidson's lack of quality. The HD lack of quality, at that time, was legendary, eclipsed only by the now extinct British makers. The tariffs were in response to aggressive predatory pricing (i.e. making a Sport 90 Honda that cost $1,100 to produce and selling it in Seattle for $800) in an effort to drive the stake into HD. The Gov't (and they made this clear when they established the tariffs) would NEVER had granted the request if it were solely for HD to defend their ineptitude and inability to compete. Buell was the FIRST manufacturer of Motorcycles (I think cars as well) to receive ISO9000 Certification. (I stand ready to eat my words, but believe this to be true). At Buell, quality and the "say what you do, do what you say and document" are not paper principles, but Pratap's job. Erik Buell, I swear on my Sixth Sigma books LIVES AND DIES THIS STUFF! Quality is not just the ability to do something great (I did that one night when I was younger) but the ability to do it great ALL THE TIME and REPEATABLY. (Lord, let me dream). In developing the XB platform, Buell not only had to sweep their own barn but others as well. Remind me to tell you one of the GREAT stories of what nearly took the XB program (yes, and Buell) out of the picture. I am in the QA/QC business in a power plant and a major security undertaking at the moment. Although my business card says QA/QC I confess I have a ton to learn. Interesting enough, most the science, as it applies to heavy construction and power plants come from Australia, as do many of my friends. The most amazing thing to me, personally, about Buell is not JUST the quality but the way the company saw where they were, where they needed to go, build a plan, collaborated and got there. That takes more than just resources, that takes special people. Thank you again for a most civil conversation. Court | ||
| Outrider |
Concerning ISO I was referring to their inspection of finished goods prior to shipment. In the case of UL and other similar testing and listing agencies in this country, I was referring to the unannounced periodic inspections that they conduct on the manufacturers. Can't go into detail for legal reasons. In theory everyone's intentions are good, but the implementation is sometimes faulty. You are just going to have to take the blinders off and believe me on this one. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Buell was the FIRST manufacturer of Motorcycles (I think cars as well) to receive ISO9000 Certification. (I stand ready to eat my words, but believe this to be true). Hmm, maybe the catch phrase will be "Free Court"? I have no idea if they were or not tho. BTW...in both of my previous jobs the ISO certification was nothing more than a formality & made absolutley no difference in our day to day lives. Pure marketing tool is all it was. Then we too did the Six Sigma...Greenbelt & Blackbelt programs...still didnt change anything tho. | ||
| Blake |
984_cc, I just asked for some examples. Your statement is outrageous. If you have no examples to offer in support of your inflamatory statement, I start to wonder about your intent here. | ||
| Midknyte |
In developing the XB platform, Buell not only had to sweep their own barn but others as well. Remind me to tell you one of the GREAT stories of what nearly took the XB program (yes, and Buell) out of the picture. Oh, c'mon Court, enough. Do tell. | ||
| Court |
Buell takes quality seriously, very seriously. I think I dramatically made the point to a few folks I took on a little "unofficial tour" of the XB line. I offered to do a "BLAST School" one day to explain to some nay-sayers how the BLAST may come to be known as the "bike that changed Buell". Laugh at me if you will. Buell, company and person, take quality more seriously than you can possibly imagine. Court | ||
| Signguyxb12 |
anyone heard of Dr. Demming HD has improved it's quality since installing his system...alittle late but they did it.. |
