| Author | Message | ||
     Nittanyxt |
60 miles this evening with new Erik Buell Racing ECM mapped for stock pipe, NO ISSUES! Did several shutdowns of various lengths of time and not once did it spit,fart or cough.Gonna try to put on a few hundred miles over the next few days before I consider the problem gone, though. | ||
| Thump4fun |
I did a TPS reset after work before heading home...twice, just to be sure. No change, still ran like crap with Mike's ECM. In fact, some of the crappiest it's run. Completely opposite of the "new bike" feel from last night. Very, very strange. I'm figuring that it just has to be a sensor sending back signals back to the ECM. Mike's ECM "learned" my bike with the bad signals and is now FUBARing my bike just like my ECM. I would assume that once it goes back into Mike's bike it will relearn again and go back to running just fine for him. So which sensors? In reading up on the DDFI system, it appears there are 7 sensors involved: - Throttle Position (TP) Sensor - Cam Position (CMP) Sensor - Intake Air Temperature (IAT) Sensor - Idle Air Controller (IAC) - Engine Temperature (ET) Sensor - Oxygen (O2) Sensor - Bank Angle Sensor (BAS) We can likely throw out the BAS since that's basically just an on/off switch. The ET and the O2 can also both be discarded since they don't come into play during cold start ups (open loop). That leaves the TPS, CMP, IAT and IAC. TPS seems high on the list to me. A bad signal from the TPS to the ECM would give it wrong info, thinking the idle is in a different spot then it is. ECM tries to correct, signal comes back as higher idle and ECM corrects down, dropping idle. Seems logical to me. Same for the IAC. Bad signal would show too much or too little air compared to the RPM feedback and TPS feedback. Correction one way or the other over-corrects and idle swings wild and makes the bike jerk, lurch and stumble. Cam sensor -- I don't know much about that one, but I believe it's for ignition timing. Not sure how that would affect what I'm seeing if the sensor went bad. Finally, the IAT. Cheapest sensor of the bunch at around $10. But again, not sure how that would contribute to my problem. Mike is being kind enough to let me swap in his IAC to test with. If my luck continues as it has been, of course that won't be the problem. If so, then I'm back to thinking of replacing the TPS. Of course, one must not forget Al's Rules of Buell Mechanics: "If it isn't a grounding problem (Al's #1 rule) or it isn't something related to the last thing YOU worked on (Al's #2 rule), then it is the Head Temp Sensor until proven otherwise." Thoughts? | ||
| Glitch |
The TPS can cause problems. But...It may be ok at the same time. Charlie's was acting up, and it turned out to be the throttle plate. The first time it was broken, the second time it was loose and not closing all the way all the time. Now that you mention it, it does sound a lot like what Charlie had going on. When it was closing all the way all was good, then it would turn to crap as it jiggled around. Check that out. Just take the air box off and see if there's any play, if there is, there's a problem. Pretty simple, but...I don't think you can get just the plate, I *think* you have to get an entire throttle body. Pray it ain't the - Cam Position (CMP) Sensor... That one ain't so simple... | ||
| Thump4fun |
Glitch, thanks for the suggestion on the throttle plate. I've had the entire air induction system off many times at this point, and have cleaned out the throttle body a couple of times, including the throttle plate. I haven't noticed any looseness or play in it, but I'll check it specifically for that. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I don't know about an '08, but on my '04 I just removed the TPS using an open end wrench..wasn't hard at all, just took a few minutes. (after pulling the airbox which is easy to do also). My bike has had a similar problem since I got it...surging/bucking at very low throttle and an erratic miss even at or above 3500 (after that it gets lost in the roar  )... After a cursory check over bad plug wires and such...nothing really caught my eye. So I rode it thinking it was normal due to the lean calibration.... Fast forward...I installed a new muffler and a E.B.R. ECM...I expected all the surging, and that dead spot at 1/8 throttle would dissappear....no....the new louder muffler let me HEAR the miss as well as feel it...the new ecm made an unbelievable difference in power delivery..but the annoying stumble was still there... So I sat and thought about it for a while...I couldn't be the ecm...and it always stumbled in a direct relationship with throttle position....hmmmm....TPS? So I ordered a new one and figured while I was at it, I would install some iridium plugs and new wires...so I took it apart this morning...checking all the wiring as I went...when I removed the TPS and unplugged it from the harness, I found the wiring going into the TPS harness plug was rubbed through on all three wires clean to the exposed wires....it looks as though the wires were rubbing against the injector "rail"...most likely the wires were rubbing there...accelleration and decelleration along with engine harmonics will affect when the short happens, how erratic it is...and some days never show it's head... I will repair the wiring, armor them and install my new TPS keeping the old as a spare, put in the new plugs and wires and see how it goes...more to follow as the story unfolds. | ||
| Thump4fun |
I have a thought / question about the engine temp sensor. Given #3 of "Al's Rules" could I rule it out as the problem (or maybe a contributing factor) by simply disconnecting it and running the bike? Sure, I may get a CEL code while it's unplugged, but other then that, would there be a problem? I wouldn't think so since the temp sensor (a) isn't used during open loop start up and (b) it's simply a monitor to warn of impending doom if the rear cylinder goes above a certain temp. Is it worth a shot? Or will it freak out and automatically go into single cylinder "limp" mode? | ||
| Livers |
I don't think that's quite true. Open loop implies no O2 correction being done, but the ECU must still know engine temperature to adjust for a cold start at a minimum. | ||
| Metra6924 |
Thump, before you take the shotgun approach, consider the ECM operation. Assume the ECM is good. The ECM relies on sensors to tell it what the engine is doing. On startup, the ECM needs to know intake air temperature and engine temperature. The O2 sensor is not involved at this time, but the TPS and IAC are, as is the ETS. However, at cruising speed, the IAC should not be involved, which should eliminate that function from the problem. If the crank position sensor is bad, the timing would be off everywhere. If the problem continues at cruising speeds, and is erratic like mine, I would suspect the O2 sensor or the ETS. The O2 sensor tells the ECM if the engine is running rich or lean and the ETS communicates the temperature. Using this information, the ECM prescribes what it assumes to be the correct fuel injection pulses and timing. If the O2 sensor is correct, but the ETS is erratic, the ECM will try to compensate and may result in surging at cruise. I'm not an expert. These are just my thoughts. Tim | ||
| Thump4fun |
Fast - With the 08+ models, the TPS is a PIA. It's been relocated to the rear of the throttle body, and it butts right up to the bike frame. To remove it the entire throttle body has to come out (according to the service manual and me eye-balling it), necessitating intake seal replacement and re-alignment...ugh. If someone knows an easier way, please enlighten me! Livers -Doh! Excellent point that I totally overlooked. In order to actually be in open loop the ECM needs to know the operating temp, and that will come from the ET sensor - so of course it's always in use. So back to Al's Rule #3 - unless proven otherwise, it's the ET sensor. Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my thinking. :-) Metra - I was hoping my shotgun approach had at least a little basis in systematic troubleshooting, which is why I walked through the DDFI system above. I appreciate your feedback too as I didn't realize the IAC wasn't used at cruising speed - since it's called the "idle" air control, the name would obviously imply that but I'd read comments both ways. I'm leaning towards it not being the issue but swapping it out for free as a test was worthwhile to rule it out completely, like the ECM swap. Finally putting some money into the problem rather then taking it back to the dealer and debating back and forth about warranty work after expiration, yesterday morning I went ahead and ordered the following parts to replace myself: - Intake Air Temp Sensor - for only $10, cheap and easy to replace, and the existing one is a bit bent up. - Engine Temp Sensor - The trending thought seems to be that this is the problem, or at least a contributing factor. And given Al Lighton's rules of Buell mechanics, well...I can't argue. :-) - Throttle Position Sensor - Since my problems are all related in some way to the throttle, and the dealer said they had to reset it multiple times to get a clean reading because it kept changing before/after they cleaned the throttle body, the TPS could be the problem. Since it's such a PIA I'll leave this for last. The Plan: 1. Oil & Filter - Today I'm changing oil & filter, switching from the Mobil 1 M-103 filter to the K&N KN-177 filter. Not that it's related in any way, it's just time to change oil. I recently did research on oil filters and decided the K&N was a better way to go -- plus the nut on the bottom will make removal MUCH easier. 2. O2 Sensor - Also today, picking up the Bosch 12014 O2 sensor today from Auto Zone and replacing it. 3. Throttle Plate - Check the throttle plate for any looseness or play, per Glitch's suggestion. 4. Ride & document any changes. Leap for joy if problem is gone (unlikely), continue to next step if it's still there. 5. Intake Air Temp - replace IAT sensor when it arrives (7-10 days). Ride and check. Leap for joy or continue on. 6. Engine Temp - replace ET sensor (7-10 days). Ride & check, etc...given this is the most likely candidate for the problem, I'm hoping to do the Happy Dance at this point... ...but if not...on to step 7. 7. Throttle Position Sensor - replace TPS, replace intake seals, bitch & moan as it takes me an entire Saturday to attempt the first time. Order second set of seals after I screw up the first ones. Finally ride & check... Feedback? How about any pointers on replacing the TPS without pulling the throttle body on a 2008 Lightning? | ||
| Ustorque |
Ha ha ha ha! Thumps, looks like you and I have hit the same wall and are about to tackle the same project. today im pulling the throttle body and replacing my intake seals. Then just like you im going down the list till i hit the jackpot. I'm hoping the problem will show itself early on in the search....I just want my baby back! . | ||
| Metra6924 |
Thump, did you check the resistance of the IAT and ETS sensors? The electrical diagnostic manual lists the following for the IAT: 55,359 ohms @ 50 degrees, 31,170 @68, 23,670 @86, 16,178 @ 104. For the ETS: 93,759 @50, 41,295 @77, 25,647 @ 104. From the manual: "The temperature-to-resistance values table may be used to test the ET sensor at various temperature levels in order to evaluate the possibility of a shifted (out-of-calibration) sensor which may result in driveability problems." | ||
| Thump4fun |
Well, how about that?! Let me know how that goes for you and if you learn an easier way to get to the TPS while you're at it. :-) I just want my baby back too! | ||
| Metra6924 |
I'm having the same troubles, that's why I've been following this thread and reading the manual. A new ETS arrived yesterday from American Sport Bike. Maybe I'll get a chance to install it tomorrow. I'll keep you posted. | ||
| Thump4fun |
No, I did not check the resistance of the sensors. I don't have a multi-meter and that type of diagnostics is not my strong point. That's the type of thing I would have expected the dealer to do to verify things...but of course that didn't happen any of the 3x I had it in there, or this thread wouldn't still be going on after 2 months. LOL! *sigh* If I can borrow a multi-meter from a buddy I might try figuring it out. But I've already ordered the parts anyway. | ||
| Nittanyxt |
Thump,what's your build date? Mine is 5/08. Took a 200 mile jaunt and ran the piss out of the XT this morning,not ONE drivability issue.Things are definitely running cooler with the '10 fan strategy on the Erik Buell Racing ECM. EX. valve still works as designed,this is how it should have run from the get-go! I'm wondering if there was a marginal batch of ECMs from '08 as we're not the only ones having problems.For those interested the Erik Buell Racing part # is Y0160.08AH,specify what exhaust when you order. | ||
| Metra6924 |
Thump, I checked a few things. Here's what I found. The IAT Checks out. I measured 22.1k ohms at 82 degrees and 56.0k at 40 degrees. (took it off and stuck it in the fridge) So that's ruled out. I then measured the ETS, old and new. I'm assuming the same temperature for both since I haven't removed the old one. Old = 39.1k ohms, new = 36.4. The ETS resistance is non-linear as temperature changes, so this difference may be the key. The ECM thinks the engine is the wrong temperature. Looks like I'll be changing it tomorrow after I figure out how to remove the boot. That thing is really in deep. Also not that you will need a special socket to remove and replace the sensor. It's slotted to allow for the wire. American Sport Bike has them. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I got my '04 back together. New wires,repaired and reinsulated the damaged wires on the TPS plug (I am positive it had been shorting),iridium NGK plugs, new TPS, cleaned throttle body, reset TPS and did a 40 mile "learn" run. I rate the drivability as "good" for a high strung pushrod V-Twin. The dead spot is gone and the decel popping is almost completely gone. And when you twist the grip....things happen in a HURRY!...Still by far not the best thing to putz around town on...but when you find a piece of open road ...the thing is evil I tell you...it makes me do illegal highway things....it's not me, I swear...it's the bike...I may have to buy a moped or something...this bike will get me incarcerated.... | ||
| Thump4fun |
Nittanyxt - My bike is is one of the very earliest 2008's...so early, in fact, that the build date is Aug 2007. Metra - I'll be very interested to hear if the ETS resolves your issue. You can get the O2 sensor and ETS socket from Auto Zone via their "loan a tool". I was going to just buy the socket (it's only $10 there) but they were all out. $25 refundable deposit got me the slotted socket set. My day went a little slow. After running errands and such I got around to changing the oil, filter and tranny oil, only to find that both drain plugs needed their o-rings replaced...and the ones I bought to keep on hand were the wrong size. They are brown instead of black and just slightly too large. Made a run to the dealer where they tried to sell me the same wrong ones. hmmm...seems the part # they keep pulling up isn't right. When I told them that they pulled out the "normal" Harley o-ring and that was the right one. Paid the exorbitant "Harley tax" and left with 4 for $8. (Al says them for 1/2 that cost - but I need them now, of course.) Finished up with the oil change and then went to tackle the O2 sensor...only to find that I didn't have an 8mm socket to remove the shock. By the time I got back from the hardware store with socket in hand, the wife was home from her girl day out and the O2 sensor will have to wait until tomorrow morning. | ||
| Thump4fun |
Got the O2 sensor in. The aftermarket Bosch is a bit longer with a longer wire, and just barely fits under the fan. Took it for a 15 minute ride on the back roads and it felt better...not great like when I initially swapped out the ECM, but better. However, it could just be a fluke as it has a habit of trying to trick me like that. If so, tomorrow it will run like it's normal crappy self. Heading out with the wife in a few minutes for a ride on the back roads and through city traffic -- we'll see how it acts. I hooked up EcmSpy and took a snapshot before and after - before while it was cold, and after the O2 sensor change and my brief ride. Maybe someone could help interpret this for me and let me know if it points to something or not. Cold bike before changing anything (yesterday afternoon):  After O2 sensor and 15-minute ride (today):  | ||
| Livers |
Why the difference in TPS readings? And that engine was far from warmed up. (Message edited by livers on August 08, 2010) | ||
| Metra6924 |
Thump, on the before screen, your engine temp is cooler than the intake air temp. Also, the manual states that TPS voltage should be approximately 0.33 volts at idle (throttle closed). Your showing 0.46 before and 0.52 after. Check the TPS voltage as you rotate the throttle. As the throttle is slowly rotated, the voltage should change gradually with no spikes. Over here, I changed the ETS today and the problem seems to be gone. I'm not declaring victory yet, after a few more rides, I'll report in. | ||
| Thump4fun |
Okay, back from our ride and reading the feedback. The ride wasn't too bad -- my gremlins were stirring but kept pretty tame. No high idles all afternoon, so that was good. A bit of coughing and backfiring though. Livers - That's a really good question on the TPS...dunno. As for the temp, the first reading was a cold engine which is why it's not warmed up. The second reading was most definitely a warm engine at 268'F. Metra - First off, yeah!! I hope your problem is truly fixed. Next, it's pretty hot over here so it could simply be that the outside air temp was hotter then the internal engine. 29'C equates to about 84'F, so that makes sense. But the TPS voltage is interesting, I didn't know that. I watched the voltage on EcmSpy as I slowly turned the throttle, and there were no spikes. It went up pretty steadily and I did it a few times just to be sure. But the voltage stayed up around 0.52. In addition, the TPS calibration keeps changing. I thought the TPS, once set, is supposed to stay put. According to the manual a properly calibrated TPS is between 3.7 and 4.2 degrees. Mine is floating between 4.0 and 5.7 degrees -- without a TPS reset. That's just between rides and it even changes just twisting the throttle with EcmSpy attached. Perhaps the floating TPS calibration along with the high voltage is an indication of a TPS problem? Here's the TPS calibration changing... ...immediately after our longer ride this afternoon, TPS reads 5.2...  ...then after going WOT 2-3 times to check TPS voltage, now the TPS has gone down an entire degree, to 4.2...  ...then a snapshot of going WOT again...  ...and the TPS changes again, now down to 4.0  I also noticed my AFV changed by 10% after the much longer ride with my wife (75 miles over a 2 hours with a couple stops). Should it have changed that much? It's now 94% whereas earlier it was 85%. Thoughts? | ||
| Thump4fun |
Bike ran like total crap yet again this morning. Stalled out 5 times before I could keep it running, and that was having to give it throttle myself to keep it around 2500 RPM. Even then, with a steady hand on the throttle the RPMs bounced around within a 400 RPM range. Several backfires through the intake as well as the exhaust. I'm sure the neighbors loved me this morning...hehe The ride to work provided me with now my 3rd close call to dumping the bike. Once again, from a stop and turning the corner, it backfired through the intake and stumbled as I leaned over. Given the screenshots from EcmSpy, I'm leaning towards the TPS being the culprit after all -- which is the biggest pain to get replaced, having to remove the entire throttle body to get at. | ||
| Xbgeorge |
Thump, We seem to have similar problems. I have a July07 build date. Mine will die three times upon start-up. Most of the time, I have to give it a little throttle to keep it running. It will start and run fine at high idle for 30 seconds, then the idle lowers to 1050 and starts a random cough through the intake. It sounds like a bad smokers cough. However, when the bike is warmed up, it runs pretty well, until I shut it off for more than 10 minutes. There is no problem with idle or anything else after it is hot. It used to stall in slow corners, like yours seems to be doing. It was always around 2800 rpm. The 2010 flash seems to have taken care of the 2800rpm stumble. But then again, I also ride the clutch a little longer, out of habit. Last year, I took the bike in to have the steering head bearings replaced. While there the tech ran a scan and said he found a code for the IAT sensor (the check engine light never came on and the bike was running fairly well). They said the sensor checked out fine, but the wires going to it were pulled very tight. The wires were replaced about a week later. About two weeks after the wires were replaced the coughing and rough start up idle started. Other than that the bike runs well. It is more of an embarrassment thing, than a riding thing, for me. I hate starting it around other people. Even a 5 year old will give it dirty looks. All my sport bike friends ask what is wrong. It confirms their prejudice toward Buell. (Message edited by xbgeorge on August 10, 2010) | ||
| Piotr12 |
Thump, even after a long ride 128 degrees Celsius is still low on the engine temp. After I rode my bike the temp is well over 200 degrees C. PM me your email and I can send you a quick demo clip of my ECM log so you can see the numbers. My bike runs like a champ and maybe you can find something in there that can help you. Pete | ||
| Froggy |
Thump, I wouldn't trust everything displayed in ECMspy on a DDFI3 bike. | ||
| Metra6924 |
Well, the stumble seems to be gone after changing the ETS. A quick ride tonight (20minutes or so) at various speeds, 1500rpm through 4000rpm and no stumbling or surging. I even tried a 2nd gear start from a dead stop. No problems there. However, it idles high and did not like the cold start, which leads me to believe the Idle Air Controller is goofy. I have a new Erik Buell Racing ecm on order. I'll see if that does the trick, otherwise I'll look into the IAC. But for now, no more worries about surging or stumbling. | ||
| Thump4fun |
So noted Froggy, thanks. Once I finally got it working I was tending to take it with a grain of salt given that it only partially works. I'm glad some folks are getting their similar problems fixed though. Although it seems like a different resolution for each bike...a new ECM or various sensors changed out. No single part that shows any consistency. Still waiting for an ETA on my 3 sensors... | ||
| Fast1075 |
Thump, once you get it sorted you will love it. I have been riding for over 40 years and have never ridden a street bike in this cc range that handles as well. | ||
| Thump4fun |
I hear that alot Fast. Since this is my first bike I don't have anything to compare it to, but I've thoroughly enjoyed the first two years of riding it. Then basically the day my warranty expires this problem rears it's ugly head. It's been far, far less enjoyable these past 2+ months then the past 2 years. I'm growing impatient with it and just want it running right again. |
