| Author | Message | ||
     Iamarchangel |
Ha, I thought the party had already started. | ||
| Macbuell |
The thing that stands out to me on this is the whole deal is based around the 1125R which has zero parts from HD. I imagine a clean brake from HD is going to happen with Erik whenever that is possible. | ||
| Bromanowski |
I wonder if there is any chance of seeing some XB parts out of his new project. It's just wishful thinking but who knows until things start pumping out of the new factory. | ||
| Hotdog271 |
If there is a clean break and Buell starts to make bikes again, I can't see the XB lineup returning. (I hope so since I own two and would like more in the future.) There are already Replacements for the Firebolt- the 1125R and Lightning- 1125CR. All they need to do is create a Ulysses with a Rotax based engine. The Thunderstorm engine from the XB's really is different than the HD motors. I feel that is should be able to go with the brand and stay a Buell piece! For what my $.02 cents is worth at least. Oh, and I would love a Uly with a Rotax, just loose the radiator pods. | ||
| Macbuell |
I seriously doubt you will ever see any HD stuff in any future Buell project. I bet if he wanted to revive the XB models, he'd end up building a newer, better, lighter, more powerful air-cooled v-twin motor with some other company. (Message edited by macbuell on November 23, 2009) | ||
| Drkside79 |
Well i hope they come out with soothing along the line of the XBS's as i would hate for this to be my last Buell. I don't like the Crotch Rocket sitting position. I prefer the motor cross seating position of the lightnings. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
First things first. The door is open, that's the important part. Wait and see what comes out. Officially, at this point, nothing will but a month ago, this wasn't going to happen. Some parts are interchangeable, some can be wrestled into place. This is fun to watch. | ||
| Newxb12ss |
H-D is paying the freight in some fashion for this Buell race program. There is no money to be made by supporting a handful of dead-end race teams running machines from a supposedly defunct brand. A decent facility and a tiny staff will cost a few hundred thousand dollars a year to operate. Now if Buell were to sell trick parts to people with street bikes, like Yoshimura, then there IS money to be made due to the huge sales volume that can be generated. Selling a few dozen "race only" components each season is not as valuable as selling hundreds or thousands of various components to street riders annually. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Newxb... Harley paid the freight by: 1) Not managing to undermine the Buell race program enough to keep them from winning. 2) Being stupid enough to finally have a winner on their hands, and deciding they would rather kill them in the dead of night instead of admitting they were wrong and succeeding together. 3) Letting Buell use the Buell and 1125R names, trademarks, and some limited intellectual property (that was created by Buell but owned by Harley Davidson) under license. This is IP that Harley claimed was "worthless" when they shut down Buell. Other then that, Buell Racing is an independent company. I'd love to see the ZTL system become the new defacto standard for sport bikes (also under license I suppose, though then Harley would have to admit that Buell was right). | ||
| Court |
>>>H-D is paying the freight in some fashion for this Buell race program. Harley-Davidson is MAKING money on the deal. What they had just declared to be "worthless" has already gotten them their first licensing check. Look at it this way . . . at this point Harley-Davidson's earnings are down 71% more than Erik Buell Racing's. | ||
| Midknyte |
Being stupid enough to finally have a winner on their hands, and deciding they would rather kill them in the dead of night instead of admitting they were wrong and succeeding together. Really stupid. They had a chance to be "Coke _and_ Pepsi". | ||
| Reepicheep |
It'll be an interesting ironic footnote... Coke screwed up by bringing forth "New Coke", because of ego driven stupidity. Harley screwed up by *not* bringing forth "New Coke", because of ego driven stupidity. Seems like the right call will change with time, but stupid always is.  | ||
| Newxb12ss |
Buell Racing is completely independent - except for being funded by H-D. | ||
| Davegess |
Buell Racing is completely independent Erik Buell Racing does not get a penny from H-D. In fact they have to pay Harley a license fee, | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
Buell Racing is completely independent - except for being funded by H-D. Why do you keeps saying that? Do you have some inside info or fact to back it up? I sure doesnt sound funded by HD to me. | ||
| Newxb12ss |
So, you all believe Erik Buell will fund this all out of his vast pockets? You all believe a handful of national and club racers will purchase enough bikes and parts to fund an operation that will require a minimum of several hundred thousand dollars a year to operate? Skilled employee packages cost $50,000-$100,000+ each, annually - unless they are also donating their time and the state skips it's L&I fees. Facility rent, equipment, tooling, consumables, maintenance, power, water, electric, garbage, insurance - this is all a pretty pricey business no matter how bare-bones it is. Just how much "profit" will there be in building and supporting only 25 bikes a year? | ||
| Court |
The business is completely free of ANY Harley involvement. Only reason for saying that is to put to rest the ill found rumors of HD backing. Totally Independent. | ||
| Tailspining |
 And so the X Files begin! | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Newxb12ss: I believe. What's the problem? Erik's been there before. He didn't have to buy his own name back before this but he has started out with less. Most businesses, not just race shops, start out with the same risks and limitations. There are sponsors and backers to help out. Maybe if more Americans had Erik's attitude, the US, and Canada, would be in a better shape. Anybody can shout out the scary questions. Some people are not afraid of the dark and know how to flick a light switch on. | ||
| Newxb12ss |
Of course, virtually everything they will be starting with in this new "on paper" enterprise will be utilizing the same H-D provided assets that they have seen using for years. For someone like Buell it certainly is easy to flick on the light switch - once sponsors are lined up to pay the bills. People who think H-D is not heavily back-door involved in this are living in a fantasy world. | ||
| 46champ |
New the only way EBR could even be construed to be financed by Harley is they are probably getting very favorable rates on the part of the building and the tooling the are leasing. At least the are getting something if they only get a dollar that's a dollar more than would get otherwise. The tooling EBR would use is completely redundent to any of their production lines. | ||
| Court |
Harley-Davidson has zero involvement and has nothing to do with the location..beyond having paid to terminate there lease early. All, by the way public information and transactions | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Newxb12ss: welcome to my fantasy world. I'm not seeing anything here to justify you putting down Erik's initiative. "For someone like Buell it certainly is easy..." Just because you can't do, don't put down somebody who can. Like Court says, it's all public. You'll just have to read it, instead of asking conspiracy questions. The answers are all posted on legal documents linked to from most of these pages. | ||
| Court |
Hehehe . . I watched him turn a thousand dollars into the 2nd largest motorcycle company in America and produce 13,000 times as many bikes as John Britten, who was a multi-millionaire when he started, produced. Pretty cool really . | ||
| Newxb12ss |
I am in no way putting Buell down for his initiative and management expertise. I also have to agree that the operational controls are entirely his to direct. But to say that because Buell has gone independent means the organization has broken all support ties with H-D is like saying Muzzy and Ferracci have not had vast quantities of factory support slipped under their "independent" doors. If H-D has no plans whatsoever to "possibly" resurrect Buell under an improved business climate, it would be in their best interest to destroy all Buell materials and take a tax write off. The licensing scam is just legal double-speak so they keep the mother-ship hooks into the Buell pie a while longer. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
The business is completely free of ANY Harley involvement. Only reason for saying that is to put to rest the ill found rumors of HD backing. Totally Independent. Sounds like an early Christmas present. Good riddance Harley Traitorson. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Newxb12ss: you really need to revisit Business 101. I can agree that "HD has no plans whatsoever", that would be my interpretation. HD has officially presented plans to all the legal parties. Their "best interests" are to keep to their plans and legal commitments which is 7 years support of the brand. (Meaning they don't get to destroy material yet.) There is no "tax write-off" in destruction. There is in sales promotion and inventory storage. (There are other threads by people more familiar with business tax laws.) The "licensing scam" is actually a brilliant legal maneuver. (Personally, I think the scam is the other way around: EB has to buy the right to use his own name. It's a well worn legal path.) Contrary to your statement, HD already had their claws in to Buell Motor, no more action was required. Buell Racing declaws HD. According to all HD's info, there is no Buell pie. EB proves them wrong again by buying his name back (showing there was at least a cash value in that). Watch this more like a chess game, than a conspiracy plot. It will be a lot more fun that way. Idle speculation: future HD might even embrace bringing Buell back, blaming present HD management. However, EB has now established a strong independence, a strong market and better business savvy. He would not go back to the same weak conditions he had before. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
+1 Iamarchangel They can keep their chrome and leather fringe, Erik will be back, bigger and better than ever. Like a girlfriend you treated like crap who came back as a supermodel. And as the saying goes (Buell)"Living well is the best revenge". In this case, building the greatest bikes round is the best revenge against a greedy, wreckless insincere company who will never grab the sportbike demographic and suffer for it  | ||
| Rainman |
Don't know. Don't care. I want EBR to succeed big so that there is a call for new Buells and, eventually, new street bikes produced that I can afford to buy when my economy recovers. If Harley helps out, fine. If Erik does it on his own fine. I'll support whatever project the man puts out there, even if all I can buy is a hat or a t-shirt. Maybe there's a pony beneath this all this horse$#!+ after all. | ||
| Newxb12ss |
When Buell can come up with a magic goose and several golden eggs worth a few million, H-D will most likely gladly turn over any and all Buell materials developed. He has a far better chance of investor backing insisting on starting from scratch rather than helping finance H-D out of any deep holes. Until, then, H-D has the claws in deep and will back-door support the operation to their maximum benefit. Supporting some 25 entry level "race" bikes and teams is not a money maker for anyone. |
