| Author | Message | ||
     Not_purple_s2 |
 It's dead, Jim. | ||
| Patches |
"Ridding this country of the income tax, and replacing it with a consumption based tax system like the Fair Tax act." A Politician several years back proposed a 2% tax across the board on everything. Sound good if you make 20k a year where it's roughly 12% tax I think. But the super Rich had a sh*tfit when you think of 2% on 100 million is allot of money. I agree with you the System is Broke. Just Hope I can Survive long enough until the Politician get there heads dislodge from there backsides and Fix The System. | ||
| Vito |
This has been my favorite thread to read lately. I am not going to harp on anybody about their choices, but I will share mine and the reasons for them. I CHOOSE to drive an American built GMC heavy duty truck because it meets my needs and I truly believe that at the plant in Flint, MI that there are a bunch of Johnny Lunchboxes who's lives are better for it. Same on my wifes Pontiac car. I made the switch to Harleys years ago for the same reason. Funny thing is, if I want to go really fast there is a bunch of aftermarket stuff I can (and do) buy to make my American Iron go fast. Most of that stuff is made here. As for clothes, I try to buy American and Union made where possible. There are a number of websites that can be of help. When I go to the stores, I look at labels because it is important to me. As a general rule, my preferences in buying are in this order, keeping in mind my own predjudices: 1: American 2: Canadian 3: Italian 4: English and Irish Regarding 2, my son is a hockey player. The best hockey skates are made in Canada. I ONLY buy him skates made in Canada and not overseas. Most of the protective gear is made overseas. The composite sticks are also offshore. I like Canadaian clothes because they are very clearly labeled as to origin and are made much heavier. 3 & 4: I am of Italian and Irish heritage. As far as I am concerned, Italian cratsmanship is second to none in the world (not to mention the food). My mother in law was a WWII war bride so I have a little predjudice, there. I don't think any of this is bad, it is just me. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I just hope GM lasts long enough for me to be able to buy a product from them now that they've made something I want. The new Lacrosse looks AMAZING! The G6 platform is great. The G8 is awesome. Where the hell were these cars 5 years ago? I just want a quality product that I WANT to own. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Okay, time to get into a little trouble here. First, Court is right about the amount of outsourcing that has being going on. Several people are right about the bottom line is important. The equation doesn't follow through because those outsourced savings are not passed on to the consumer. The cost of production has been lowered but the cost of the product has not changed. (I am not referring to Buell which has pleasantly surprised me.) Second, we are all suffering from an obscure law passed to help reconstruction after WW2. It was originally written to protect domestic investment from the risks of foreign investment. A bankruptcy overseas will not affect the domestic base. That law has been used to do the reverse. Now, the big three can allow their domestic base to go bankrupt and protect their foreign investment. In effect, a manufacturer can say, "I am bankrupt because I have no money in my right pocket and you can't ask me to account for my left pocket." Consequently, the largest selling car is still GM because China is not counted. GM is still investing billions in China and Brazil and nothing in North America. GM is introducing new models in other countries and removing models here. Different fuel options are available in other countries and not available in North America. Okay, this is turning into a rant. Here's the thing, I'm more of a socialist politically but this is economics. We can agree that there is a need to build capital. And we can agree that there is a need to protect the right to build capital. But the reason that ability exists is to build the common weal and that is not happening in your country or mine. | ||
| Mpolans |
Communist driven slave labor of China??? Give me a friggin' break! Despite their claim to be Communist, China is probably one of the most capitalistic countries in the world!!! It's why their economy is growing by leaps and bounds! It's we folks here in the U.S. who tie our manufacturers' hands with socialist rules and regulations like OSHA standards, minimum wage, and empowered labor unions that bully manufacturers into making decisions that drive up manufacturing costs, which in turn, drive up prices, which in turn, drives up the cost of living! In a capitalist country like China, you don't see the government stepping in to pass laws to protect people from their own decisions...in China, if you don't think the wages are high enough, you quit. If you think the work environment is too dangerous, you quit and work somewhere else...you don't file an OSHA complaint. While the Chinese always talk about how much they love Mao Zedong, their actions show they're really bigger fans of Deng Xiaoping. Patches said: "The American workers Cannot compete with the COMMUNIST driven SLAVE labor of China and survive here where the Cost of Living is Exceptionally Higher. A Man making Minimum Wages or Less cannot Afford a $10,000.00 Motorcycle when he cannot afford Toilet Paper to wipe his Backside nether. Please don't take this the wrong way. I lost a good Paying Job because I refused to Relocate to China.(couldn't take my H-D FLH1200 with me)" | ||
| Pdccd |
Mpolans, Socialist rules and regulations? Like child labor laws, safe working environments, and environmental restrictions?? Come on, the working class never had representation in our government until the labor unions. We were used like pieces of equipment and discarded as such at our owners leisure. Like the Chinese workers are. As for your optimism about China's economic vs. political systems, they despise us, and are using us to generate capital, which they in turn invest in their military, which currently has ICBM's pointed at us (still). In order for a foreign business to open a factory in China, that business must have a Approved Communist party member as a equal partner. Trust me, they aren't practicing true capitalism either bud. And the short sighted greed of the 1% of the population that control 50% of the worlds assets, as well as the complacency of people like you will drive us back into the third world, one dollar, one 7.62 at a time. It has nothing to do with the bottom line but with profit margin, and its not going back to the stock holders, but to the board that earns and average 300 times the average blue collar worker. Globalization/outsourcing only works on an equal playing field. It is not, nor ever will be. A billion people is their greatest natural resource... And our short sighted greed is our greatest weakness. my .02 See you in hell... (Message edited by pdccd on July 13, 2009) | ||
| Union_man |
We must do our best as Americans to try to keep Americans working. We need to try to bring jobs back to the USA with our wallets!!!  Proud American Union Laborer!!! | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Mpolans: if you're not trying to be funny, give your head a shake. You're obviously completely unfamiliar with labour in North America and in China. I don't know where to begin helping you understand but it's not my responsibility to do so. If you want help with this, just ask. But remember, baby steps, one question at a time, you've got a long way to go. | ||
| Eaton_corners |
+1 Union_man. Proud American Union Electrician!!! | ||
| Court |
>>>You're obviously completely unfamiliar with labour in North America and in China. I agree. Much of what is contained in this thread is factually inaccurate. If you think it's all about money, you fail to grasp the problem. One of my best friends, a Buell rider, does a great deal of business in China. I am not an expert but base my PERSONAL OPINION on his experience, that of Buell Materials Engineers and other sources I read, not internet hyperbole. My youngest son and his wife are heading to China for 15 days. I hope to learn more. There is a way to bring jobs back to the USA. There are things we do better than any country in the world. Those things do not, by the way, include "everything". For a game plan of how that could happen please read the piece Erik Buell recently wrote for Forbes magazine. Court 3rd Generation I.B.E.W. Lineman since 1969. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
<- Forbes | ||
| Darthane |
Ft_bstrd - The G6 is alive and well under a different skin and likely to remain so for quite some time given its popularity...it's just called a "Malibu".  There is talk at GM about keeping the G8 and rebadging it as a revamped Chevy Caprice, since the car has gotten such rave reviews. It would also help revive GMs lackluster participation in the law enforcement arena since they killed the old Caprice. | ||
| Spiderman |
A question for the Union guys cause this always bothered be growing up and watching it on the news all the time here in Detroit... And maybe this is just UAW BUT Why was the union soooo into making a few extra cents here and there as opposed to creating contracts and/or stipulations not to allow outsourcing of major jobs and/or components? | ||
| Patches |
Mpolans, After its victory in the Chinese Civil War, the Communist Party of China (CCP) led by Mao Zedong gained control of most of Mainland China. On 1 October 1949, they established the People's Republic of China as a Socialist State headed by a "Democratic Dictatorship" with the CCP as the only legal political party However, the PRC government still has almost absolute control over politics, and it continually seeks to eradicate what it perceives as threats to the social, political and economic stability of the country. Examples include the fight against terrorism, jailing of political opponents and journalists, custody regulation of the press, regulation of religion, and suppression of independence/secessionist movements. In 1989, the student protests at Tienanmen Square were violently put to an end by the Chinese military after 15 days of martial law. China is still a Communist Country. Chinese military runs there Factories and for what they Pay for Employment is SLAVERY. Long Live BAM! | ||
| Court |
It appears that most of what we "know" about China is based on carefully selected snippets. I am curious as to how many folks here on Badweb have had, or better yet currently have, contractual relationships with firms in China. While many of the above stories, including the massacre of American students by the military, may be factually accurate, they form a poor basis upon which to make a generalized decision about sourcing of motorcycle wheels. | ||
| Patches |
NEW YORK, July 14 /PRNewswire/ -- Standard & Poor's, the world's leading index provider, announced today that for fiscal year 2008, S&P 500 companies with full reporting information posted 47.9% of their sales from outside of the United States versus 45.8% in 2007 and 43.6% in 2006. The data is derived from the 253 companies within the S&P 500 that have full reporting information. "Despite the global recession's impact on local markets, companies are continuing to generate more and more sales from outside of the United States," says Howard Silverblatt, Senior Index Analyst at Standard & Poor's and author of the report. "This trend is expected to continue as an increasing number of U.S. companies continue to shift labor, capital, and resources to foreign countries, where a growing worldwide middle-class is emerging." This is why I asked the original question- Is Buell disassociating themselves from being Made in America? My Pay has bin Cut to 1/3 of what it was. There is no way I can afford a New $10,000.00 Buell, and I know I'm not the only one in America like this. From a Business Standpoint it would make Logical Sense for Buell to turn there backs on America and go where the Money is. the S.O.B.s need to bring back the Jobs. | ||
| Court |
>>>the S.O.B.s need to bring back the Jobs. Buell created many jobs in the United States last year and is currently hiring. | ||
| Patches |
>>>the S.O.B.s need to bring back the Jobs. I Apologise For That, I did not mean for it to be Directed at Buell(I love my Buell Blast) I meant it to be Directed at all American Companies that Outsource for cheaper Labor. With The Cost of Living here, we cannot Live on the Wages they Pay in a Democratic Dictatorship or 3rd World Country. God, Please Forgive Me of My Sins. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Why was the union soooo into making a few extra cents here and there as opposed to creating contracts and/or stipulations not to allow outsourcing of major jobs and/or components? A good start. First, union do try to have such clauses. So, understand what a contract is. Basically, they're all the same, just like buying a car. They define each party (union and management)and the roles they play. They define what is a negotiated work standard (fair day's work) and what is a negotiated compensation (fair day's pay). They agree on work standards and conditions and set an end date. Every labour contract has a management rights clause. That clause prevents the union from managing the company (workers work, managers manage). The result is that, though the union can negotiate job protection/ownership language, ultimately, if the company can put forward a business plan within the contract language, the work can be taken out of the plant. Understand that, internationally, the US is considered to have very weak union protection laws. The result is that it is easy for companies to violate the "spirit" of these agreements. When you read of a plant occupation, it is usually a union/workers trying to protect the jobs by preventing the dismantling of the plant. Of course, for the companies/states where there are no unions, this discussion can't even take place.} | ||
| Iamarchangel |
I am curious as to how many folks here on Badweb have had, or better yet currently have, contractual relationships with firms in China. Our plant is in a partnership with a Chinese manufacturer. We are constantly sending union workers there to assist in the growth. Yes, it is an issue but it is within our contract agreement. My brother is an international consultant working out of a US university research institute. He's also consulted by Homeland Security. He just texted me from eastern Shandong.} | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Is there a link for the Forbes article? | ||
| Spiderman |
A good start. First, union do try to have such clauses. I'm not talking a clause or an addendum to one. I am talking about a full on "We want a great majority of our suppliers to be US based" It doesn't see that the Unions (UAW here in Mi) seem to care about other workers, just themselves... | ||
| Ourdee |
Spiderman, The UAW leadership does not speak for all UAW members. I personally disagree with decisions they have "made on my behalf". Member UAW local 1268 | ||
| Spiderman |
Well yes UAW members are not to blame (well at least those that do not take advantage(read ABUSE) of the system) Just as when a President of the USA or celebrity says something about the USA it doesn't necessarily reflect any of my opinions or beliefs... | ||
| Iamarchangel |
I'm not talking a clause or an addendum to one. I am talking about a full on "We want a great majority of our suppliers to be US based" It doesn't see that the Unions (UAW here in Mi) seem to care about other workers, just themselves... I think you are unaware how anti-union US laws are. Even Canadian laws make that a hard thing to do but we can do it. Union can and do express your sentiments but they can't force it. They can barely discuss it in union states, there is no voice for this in non-union states. And it is a hard idea to express. There are good reasons to outsource. The real issue is that it is not a two way street. The Asian countries, primarily, do not allow NA imports so there is a trade imbalance. More money is going out of the US than coming in. Unions believe in helping all workers: current trade laws believe in helping corporations that don't care which workers they exploit. Right now, it's Asia. When Asia reaches a certain labour awareness, they'll find another country and so on. Eventually, they'll come back to NA when we're hungry enough to accept their low standards. | ||
| Spiderman |
make that a hard thing to do but we can do it. WOW I am glad inventors and explorers don't/didn't share your sentiment... | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
I wonder what kind of products we would have if the competition was smaller and confined to our borders? | ||
| Zatco81 |
If you really want to buy American go down to the corner store and pick up a six pack of Coors, a Playboy, and a pack of Marlboros. On the way home stop and get a tattoo. | ||
| Pdccd |
"I wonder what kind of products we would have if the competition was smaller and confined to our borders?" Historically, it hasn't ever been an issue. A country with good jobs and a secure government has never had a problem attracting talent, inovation or ambition. Remove the jobs (undermine the middle class) and all bets are off. And i agree it isn't as simple as profit margin. I'd say the primary factor is a degredation of morality/ethics. We'll buy crap from walmart to save a nickel (short term), and then bitch we don't have any US jobs... It's a choice we've all made. It's just a small minority profiting from it, as usual. And i'm talking sustainable wealth, not cheap LCD tv's. |
