| Author | Message | ||
     Cowtown |
I just bought a new xb12s. I wont have it for a few weeks. Does anyone know if they are using synthetic oil when they ship the bikes from the factory? What are yall thoughts on extended warranties, lengths, costs and tire and wheel coverage? BTW, how much do yall think I can get for my X1? It has 6000 miles and I just put a set of Dunlop 208 ZR on it, as of to date, they have 0 miles on them. Please take a look at my profile for all mods. Thanks, any input would be appreciated. I always respect the opinions on this board. | ||
| Fullpower |
hey paul, you will dig the XB. looked like regular 20W-50 drained out of mine. you dont want to sell the X-1. the best advice you will get from me is: keep the tuber, they aint makin no more of 'em. if you dont have room in the garage for 2 buells- build a bigger garage. BTW what dealer sold you the XB? are you shipping cross country? later, dean | ||
| Bigbird |
They are shipping the bikes from the factory with non-synthetic. There are varying thoughts on the matter, but realistically you should stay away from synthetic oils during break-in. Supposedly many synthetic oils are slippery enough that they arrest the wear-in process that is needed for the engine's internal parts to properly mate to each other. Not allowing this process to take place can cause poor ring seal and oil usage throughout the life of the engine. Extended warranties are an insurance policy. They are gambling that you won't have a problem, you are gambling that you will. However, if you are financing through Harley-Davidson sometimes you get a better finance rate if you buy the extended warranty, which makes it so cheap that it would be silly not to buy it. The XB's have been really good so far. The only ones we've seen that didn't come in for service under their own power (there have only been a couple) were earlier XB-9's. One had a broken belt, the other lost a rear wheel bearing. Both issues have been addressed and improvements have been made before 2004 model year production. The other issues we've seen have been VERY sporadic and relatively minor. 1 temp sensor failure, 1 O2 sensor failure, 1 oil pressure switch failure, a couple of warped brake rotors. These are the most reliable Buells ever, with reliability matching or beating many Japanese models. How long do you intend to keep the bike? You've barely broken in your 2001, and your new one comes with 2 years of factory warranty. Are you going to use it enough and/or own it long enough to have a chance at using an extended warranty? I have no idea what your old bike is worth-I know service, not sales! | ||
| Austinrider |
I got no clue what the old tuber is worth. A "recall" (god I hate saying tha word in the same sentence as Buell) just got issued about the electrical wires and the XB12S's. Seem they can wear through and cause a short. Other than that its a top notch bike. I have an XB9, whenever its in the shop (for owner induced items I may add) my dealership loans me an XB12. I love the 12, not as much as my XB9, but I like the 12. When finances allow, I will get one. Enjoy the new bike when it gets to you. They are tons of fun. I switched to Mobil 1 V-Twin formal synthetic at the 2nd oil change (first one at 500, 2nd one at 1000). I put Mobil 1 75/90 Gear oil in the tranny. This is just me, some other folks do the same. I notice the shifting gets smooth as butter when I use that lubricant and my fan doesnt run nearly as long with that oil (compared to my friends XB). | ||
| Lothodon |
as far as the extended warranty, half the things you'll do to the bike will void it, and the factory two year is plenty imo. as far as i know a warranty isn't going to cover what is termed a wear item such as clutch, brake pads or tires. | ||
| Dynarider |
There are varying thoughts on the matter, but realistically you should stay away from synthetic oils during break-in. Supposedly many synthetic oils are slippery enough that they arrest the wear-in process that is needed for the engine's internal parts to properly mate to each other. Not allowing this process to take place can cause poor ring seal and oil usage throughout the life of the engine. No offense here but thats just plain wrong. HD ships their CVO bikes with synthetic. And no such thing as too slippery of an oil. Using it right from the start wont hurt a damn thing. | ||
| Bigbird |
Dynarider, I wasn't speaking specifically about Harley's syn3 oil, which the CVO bikes are filled with at the factory. I was referring to synthetics in general. The advice isn't wrong, by the way. There are several manufacturers that specify synthetics of any kind are NOT to be used when an engine is breaking in. I won't bore you with a list, but among them is BMW's motorcycle division, which specifically states synthetics are not to be used in the engine until at least 6500 miles have passed, for the exact reasons I described in my last post. As for Harley-Davidson, they don't recommend running any synthetics except Syn3 at any time, broken in or not. It may just be a marketing ploy because they want to sell their own oil, but they state that syn3 is the only synthetic they have tested and certified for use in their engines. Could syn3 be used during break in? Sure, Harley has tested it under those circumstances and approved it's use. What effects do Mobil, Castrol, Amzoil, or other synthetics have on ring seating in Harley/Buell engines? Who knows, but I tend to stick with Harley's recommendation at least for the period of time that the bike is under warranty. By the time the warranty expires break in is long over anyway. There are oils that tend to reduce friction too much for the ring seating process in many engines, that is a known fact. Prior to working in the motorcycle biz I did 20 years as an auto tech, and I built hundreds of engines. I've seen first hand the effects of the wrong lubrication during break in because Mr. customer decided he knew more than the manufacturer who designed and built his engine, and I can tell you for sure it can be a factor in how well rings seat. Opinions about engine break in, lubrication, and other aspects of treatment and maintenance are a dime a dozen. It's ok with me if you don't believe what I am saying, but it is backed up by supporting data from several engine manufacturers as well as 20 + years of engine building experience. | ||
| Bubabuell |
My Triumph Speed Triple came from the factory with synthetic installed. | ||
| Court |
It makes absolutely no difference. If it does,someone needs to let Porshce know quickly. | ||
| Dynarider |
It is indeed a marketing ploy by Harley. For years they advised & warned owners not to use synthetic, but finally they saw that the owners werent listening to them & HD was losing oil sales because of it. They dont make their own oil, its just repackaged. No difference between theirs, mobil 1, etc etc. And please, list the manufacturers who specifically state not to use it. | ||
| Bigbird |
Hmm, maybe I'm not explaining myself well. There are certain cases with certain manufacturers where synthetic is specified right from the beginning. Porsche happens to be one, and I believe Corvettes come with synthetic also, or at least they used to. I haven't verified if its true or not, but I was told that Porsche puts their engines through a specific run-in cycle before they leave the factory. I don't know what kind of oil they would be using when they do this, but it may or may not be the synthetic oil the car comes filled with when the owner buys it. I never said that no vehicle should ever be run on synthetic oil during break in. In fact, this is what I said: "There are varying thoughts on the matter, but realistically you should stay away from synthetic oils during break-in." "Varying thoughts on the matter" means that not every engine manufacturer or every wrench agrees. There are 3 reasons why I said "realistically you should stay away from synthetic oils during break-in". First, as I've explained before Harley claims they haven't tested ANY brand of synthetic in their engines except Syn3. Running synthetic oils other than Syn3 during or after break in is at your own risk. If you have an engine problem and your dealer or Harley thinks that problem is lubrication related theoretically you could get stuck with the repair bill. My statement about staying away from synthetics during break in was about synthetic oils in general, not about Syn3. Now realistically I'm pretty sure your engine isn't going to melt down because you installed Mobil synthetic, but to err on the side of caution I simply said to stay away from synthetics during break in. 2nd, there is no reason to drop the factory fill of oil and install Syn3 prior to completion of intial break in, unless you just want to waste your money. 3rd, There are manufacturers who specifically state NOT to use synthetic oil during break in. In fact, until the release of Syn3 last year Harley specifically stated that synthetics should not be used AT ALL in their engines, AT ANY TIME. I'm not making this stuff up. You can find examples of manufacturers that use synthetic from the beginning. But there are many cases where it is prohibited due to it's effect on ring seating in certain applications. Having said that it's a free country. You are welcome to do as you like. Out of all of the engines I built no one ever blew one up or had oil consumption problems by following these guidelines. But I have seen factory built engines that did consume oil because these guidelines weren't followed. Do as you wish! | ||
| Bigbird |
They dont make their own oil, its just repackaged. No difference between theirs, mobil 1, etc etc. Do you have specific proof of this, or are you just speculating? Harley doesn't refine their own oil, that is a given. But the oil is formulated for use in their engines. And please, list the manufacturers who specifically state not to use it. I already stated BMW Motorcycle divisions specific requirement that synthetic oil is not to be used prior to 6500 miles. Their engines can take upwards of 12,000 miles for full ring seating to take place due to the combination of nikasil cylinders and the ring material they use. Using synthetic oil prior to 6500 miles is not recommended because it arrests the ring seating process. Call a BMW motorcycle dealer and ask them. In fact, call Holt BMW at (740)593-6690. The manual to my quad doesn't use the word "synthetic", but specifically states avoiding the use of "oils of a quality higher than specified." They claim these "higher quality oils" are too slippery for the clutch and other engine components. I spent 8 years working on Mitsubishi cars until I was injured and disabled in 2000. I completed their entire Diamond Pro Master Technician program, which included more weeks of schooling in Chicago than I care to think about. We were specifically taught in school to advise our customers to let break in complete before using synthetic oils. This wasn't a big deal though, because the first oil change was at 3000 miles, and Mitsubishi considered the break in process to be done long before then. Looking through the owners manuals of my 2004 Chevy truck and my girlfriend's 2000 VW Bug TDI there is no reference one way or another about synthetic oil during or after break in, so I suppose it doesn't matter to them. But I would be sure to ask a professional before I assumed anything. Both manuals do specifically state that engine oil additives are not to be used at any time. There's not really any point in going any further with any of this. If you don't agree, that's fine. Do what you want to do. It's your bike. I tend to stick by manufacturers recommendations. If Harley says to use HD 360 20/50 or Syn3, that is what I'll use. However in my case I use HD 360. It works just fine, and we don't have Harleys or Buells coming into the dealership worn out at 30,000 miles because they used HD 360. If Harley said to use corn oil I suppose I'd find it odd, but they are the ones who get to pay for it when it breaks, so once again I would follow directions. | ||
| Dynarider |
Harley doesn't refine their own oil, that is a given. But the oil is formulated for use in their engines. HD does not have their own specific formulation. They wont give specifics on who's oil it is, but I believe their stock dino oil is actually from Citgo & is no different from any other 20w/50 other than the bottle. HD is not a big enough consumer in the oil world to dictate a specific formulation. They claim these "higher quality oils" are too slippery for the clutch and other engine components. And once again thats BS. Old wives tales & myths. Running synthetic oils other than Syn3 during or after break in is at your own risk. If you have an engine problem and your dealer or Harley thinks that problem is lubrication related theoretically you could get stuck with the repair bill Wrong. So long as the oil is changed & documented, it makes no difference who the manufacturer is. | ||
| Easyflier |
I'm not sure when Mobil 1 was introduced but I was running it in the tranny of my Sportster in 1975 or '76. It greatly improved the shifting, reduced drag and was real good for the clutch. I can't remember why we didn't run it in the engine other than the fact we didn't think the formulation was "thick" enough for the motor back then, of course we might have just been full of shit. I adhere to the theory that it's best to put at least 2,500 miles on a motor until the switch to synthetic, but I've never owned a vehicle that shipped with it so that might be a different story. I have disassembled motors that have run synthetic and compared to real dino oil the advantages are obvious on examination of the internals. | ||
| Bigbird |
HD does not have their own specific formulation. They wont give specifics on who's oil it is, but I believe their stock dino oil is actually from Citgo & is no different from any other 20w/50 other than the bottle. HD is not a big enough consumer in the oil world to dictate a specific formulation. For starters, you don't have to be huge to be able to dictate a specific formulation. Once again I'll revert back to BMW motorcycle division. Their oils are made by Spectro, yet oil analysis conducted by magazines as well as oil analysis conducted by friends of mine who ride them show large differences in the formulation of the BMW version versus the Spectro version. Specifically, the BMW versions have significantly higher amounts of zinc and calcium, if memory serves. If you really want to press the issue I'll go dig up the links to prove it. Why is this significant? BMW sells 16,000 motorcycles a year here, and less than 70,000 worldwide. Harley alone sells over 200,000 motorcycles a year. Not big enough to have their own formulation? Please... Once again, I'll ask for proof of your claims about citgo , and being no different than any other 20/50. Certainly if you know it to be true you should be able to prove it. If you can't prove it I'll have to assume you really just don't know what you are talking about. No offense intended. And once again thats BS. Old wives tales & myths. Yet again, where is your proof? Just on the wet clutch issue alone your statement is completely wrong. The quad has a centrifugal clutch that is going to slip excessively with the use of the wrong oil. But I'm not going to ruin my clutch proving it. Ask the professionals and you'll find out I'm correct. Wrong. So long as the oil is changed & documented, it makes no difference who the manufacturer is. Sorry, Dude, you are dead wrong. The oil MUST be equal to or greater than the requirements stated by Harley-Davidson. I've been through Harley's warranty school. Unless you work in the warranty department of HD you don't know more about their warranty policies and procedures than I do. It is completely within Harley-Davidson's rights to send out a sample of oil from an engine failure for analysis. If the oil doesn't meet their specs you're screwed. I'm not saying there is no other oil that can meet or exceed their requirements, but I am saying that if you aren't using oils they approve the burden of proof is upon you, receipt or not. You can use oil from another manufacturer ONLY if it meets or exceeds Harley-Davidson's requirements. That's their rule, in black and white. Since Harley doesn't test and certify any synthetic oil but Syn3, using any oil other than Syn3 may or may not open you up to liability for a failure, depending on whether or not that oil meets or exceeds HD requirements when tested or analyzed. I really am not trying to offend you, but you sure are making a lot of claims that you have not provided any proof of. | ||
| Dynarider |
Since Harley doesn't test and certify any synthetic oil but Syn3, using any oil other than Syn3 may or may not open you up to liability for a failure, depending on whether or not that oil meets or exceeds HD requirements when tested or analyzed BS. So long as the oil is certified by the manufacturer of the oil as being safe to use then you are good to go. HD cannot specify only their oil is to be used. That is strictly against the law. Thats why HD has never stated otherwise because doing so would open themselves up to a rash of lawsuits. The quad has a centrifugal clutch that is going to slip excessively with the use of the wrong oil. But I'm not going to ruin my clutch proving it. Synthetic isnt anymore "slippery" than conventional oil. Just what do you think syn is made from? The base stock is dino, its better refined with extra additives that increase the ability to handle heat & wear. Maybe you want to accept all of the bs that HD is force feeding you, but for anyone with an open mind its plain to see that the kool-aid mix is a bit strong in your shop. | ||
| Blake |
And Chevrolet too; they ship all their Corvettes filled with synthetic. Bigbird, I'd be very interested to see the statement by BMW that you mentioned; can you please point me in the right direction on that? Have you seen that statement yourself, or are you going on the word of someone else? I ask because we have a few BMW owners who frequent the board, and I've not heard them say anything about such a requirement. Are there not a LOT of factors that can affect the integrity of ring sealing in a new engine? In your experience, what is better for optimum ring sealing during break-in, a long easy break-in, or a quick aggressive break-in? That thing that Harley says about their synthetic oil... you nailed it, ALL marketing. They absolutely cannot disallow the use of another synthetic oil. But hey, give them credit, at least they finally dropped their old "synthetics are too slippery" BS. Well, I thought they had until your post above.  What allows an engine oil to lubricate in a hydrodynamic film (like on a cylinder wall) is its viscosity. Viscosity is viscosity is viscosity. The viscosity of a 20W50 weight conventional oil is in the same range as a 20W50 synthetic oil. It is always interesting to discuss this issue. One of the age old topics on all vehicle-related forums. One other thing you can perhaps point me towards is the "supporting data from several engine manufacturers" that you offer as evidence supporting your advice to not use synthetic oil during break-in. I've been searching for that kind of evidence for ten years now. I have yet to find any credible (meaning something based upon honest investigation, not conjecture) evidence that supports the idea that a synthetic oil will cause problems if used during break-in. I worked in an auto shop back when I was in high school. Saw a few rebuilt engines whose rings refused to seat/seal. Those engines were using conventional oil. See how anecdotal evidence can easily be used to further a point of debate? It has been my experience that when an individual experiences a problem with their engine after switching to synthetic oil, they tend to suspect the synthetic oil as being the root cause, some will even confidently proclaim so. Do you know how many people have tried synthetic oil? Out of such a large group (sample), the mythical stories based purely upon assumptions of an unfortunate few propagate and become conventional wisdom. Racing car engines such as those used in NASCAR, CART, and Formula-1 are all broken-in using synthetic oil. Synthetic oil is NOT more slippery than conventional oil. It just lasts longer and requires fewer if any additives to achieve the desired multi-viscosity performance. Anyway, if you have found what you think is credible evidence to support the idea that synthetic oil is bad for engine break-in, I'd sure like to have a chance to review it. | ||
| Bigbird |
BS. So long as the oil is certified by the manufacturer of the oil as being safe to use then you are good to go. HD cannot specify only their oil is to be used. That is strictly against the law. Thats why HD has never stated otherwise because doing so would open themselves up to a rash of lawsuits. You must have a reading comprehension problem. I never said HD requires that only their oil is used. Instead I said that any oil used has to meet HD's requirements, and that the only synthetic HD has tested is Syn3. Furthermore I said if you are using an oil that HD hasn't tested and approved the burden of proof could be upon you in a warranty situation. If the maker of the motor oil claims it is good for use in HD engines then you have another course of action should you have a lubrication related failure. But that doesn't mean that HD has to warranty lubrication related failures while you are using any oil you feel like, just because you changed it on time. That's an assenine assumption! EVERY engine manufacturer has SPECIFIC lubrication requirements that they specify for their engines. Using an oil that does not meet those needs could cause accelerated wear and/or damage. No manufacturer can be expected to pay for those repairs under those circumstances. Jesus, it isn't rocket science! Does Mobil synthetic meet HD's specs for lubrication? I don't know. Ask Mobil. Does Spectro? I don't know about that one either. As far as I'm concerned if they don't tell you that it meets or exceeds HD's requirements then you are accepting liability by using it. Here is an example of what I am talking about: I have a quart of Castrol syntec 5w50 sitting in front of me right now. The back of the bottle tells me that it meets or exceeds the following specs: API service SL/SJ/CF, Japanese valve train wear, ACEA: A3, B3. Also meets engine protection requirements of ILSAC GF-3, Porsche, BMW, Volvo, and Mercedes Benz. So what does that mean? To keep things simple, basically if you open up your owners manual and you see it call for one of those specs in most cases you are good to go. Most of the time the API service spec is what your manual will list. An API service SL motor oil is supposed to be backwards compatible with previous specs, such as SJ, SH, SG, etc. If I open up the manual to my truck I can see that the API Service spec is right in line with GM's requirements. However, I can point out at least one case where backwards compatability doesn't exist. Again I revert to BMW motorcycles. Their 20/50 is still API service SG. Furthermore they have issued a service bulletin stating that the use of SH/SJ oils is not recommended and any engine damage that results from the use of those oils will not be covered under warranty. This issue gets complex, but to try to make things simple I'll explain it by saying that when the motor oil specs for SH were being developed by SAE (society of automotive engineers) they decided to lower the zinc content of the motor oil compared to the SG spec. Zinc is a "last line of defense" when it comes to lubrication. As motor oil breaks down and becomes less able to do its job either because of excess heat or excess mileage zinc is there to provide some level of lubrication in the hopes of avoiding a catastrophic lubrication-related failure. Probably under influence of the EPA, the SAE lowered the zinc content because they thought it might be shortening the life of catalytic converters. BMW didn't like the reformulation, and as such even today when you buy a quart of BMW 20/50 it conforms to API service SG, not SH, SJ, or SL. BMW doesn't require you to use BMW oil, but they do require you to use SG oil, even though the SH, SJ, and SL oils are supposed to be backwards compatible. Synthetic isnt anymore "slippery" than conventional oil. Just what do you think syn is made from? The base stock is dino, its better refined with extra additives that increase the ability to handle heat & wear. Forget about the base stock. What determines an oil's lubricity (slipperiness) is the additive package. As I described above, that package contains a variety of things. These include zinc, phosphorous, boron, calcium, viscocity index improvers (VSI's), and many other additives. Some additives are there to neutralize acids created during combustion, some are there to provide additional lubrication beyond the capabilities of the base stock, and some are there to make the oil a multi-viscocity oil. Different additive packages create different levels of lubricity. There is such a thing as an oil that is "too slippery" for a specific application. I don't have to prove that, it's common knowledge. Go learn about the composition of motor oil, what additives are used, and how they formulate it for a specific application and you'll see that the information I am giving you is correct. Maybe you want to accept all of the bs that HD is force feeding you, but for anyone with an open mind its plain to see that the kool-aid mix is a bit strong in your shop. Ahh, now were's getting personal. Ok, I can play that game too. Quite frankly I'm still waiting for you to provide actual proof of any of the claims you've made in this thread, and you have provided nothing. You don't know squat about motor oil, warranty, or anything else. And just in case someone wants to take your advice about choosing motor oil I offer the following, quoted from your profile: Problems/Miles (Be specific): 2800 miles dropped a valve in the front head, tore up everything. Thank God for warrantys. 4800 miles a valve dropped in the rear head. Hopefully this is the end of dropped valves. 4900 miles primary gasket leaking, covered under warranty so let them fix the damn thing. 4950 miles mounting bolt for the shifter snapped off 3" inside of the primary. Once again its a warranty issue. 7800 miles..mainshaft 2nd gear took a dump & got the shift fork with it. 1 week outta warranty. So far no word from Buell on any Mystery goodwill program. And now at 11,000 the motor is toast. Oil pump fried, cam gears shed themselves of their teeth, bent pushrod & yet another holed piston. Happened down at Deals Gap & it wasnt very pleasant hitchhiking 65 miles back to my cabin. In particular I like the part about the motor being toast at 11,000 miles. First off, it's an engine. Motors use extension cords. Putting that aside, "Oil pump fried, cam gears shed themselves of their teeth, bent pushrod & yet another holed piston." is all the proof that I need to know you don't know how to properly maintain your motorcycle. A bent pushrod/hole in the piston could be an instantaneous failure, but the fried oil pump and cam gears missing teeth is a smoking gun of lubrication related failure. We haven't seen a Buell yet that lost an oil pump or cams, let alone one that failed at 11,000 miles. We have XB customers with almost 40,000 miles on their bikes, tube frame Buell and sportster customers with close to 100,000 miles on their bikes, and no failures like you describe. But I suppose it's buell's fault, right?  | ||
| Bigbird |
And Chevrolet too; they ship all their Corvettes filled with synthetic. I knew they used to, I wasn't sure if they still did. I've been away from GM for quite a while at this point. I'd be very interested to see the statement by BMW that you mentioned; can you please point me in the right direction on that? Have you seen that statement yourself, or are you going on the word of someone else? I ask because we have a few BMW owners who frequent the board, and I've not heard them say anything about such a requirement. I listed the information in a previous post, as well as a name and number to call if you want verification. Here it is again: Holt BMW (740)593-6690. They are a great dealership with knowledgeable staff. Ask for Marvin. He will also be able to verify my claim that BMW has a service bulletin specifically stating that they don't approve of the use of SH/SJ oils. I've seen the bulletin myself. You can also go to www.bmwst.com and post the question. Are there not a LOT of factors that can affect the integrity of ring sealing in a new engine? In your experience, what is better for optimum ring sealing during break-in, a long easy break-in, or a quick aggressive break-in? This is an entirely different discussion, one probably better suited to a different thread. Professionally I recommend the customer follow the manufacturer's break in recommendations. Personally I break in different vehicles in different fashions. I believe that the manufacturers recommendations are usually designed to provide the longest overall life of the engine, but a shorter, more aggressive break in seems to yield more horsepower. Based on that theory I broke my BMW in by the book-all 1000+ miles of it. The Buell was another story. I gave it 50 miles of varying rpm below 4000. Then once I passed 50 miles I spent the next 20 miles doing a series of run-up/coast down exercises in 500 rpm increments, in 2nd and 3rd gears. Once I had worked my way up to redline I just started riding the bike the way I wanted to, which is pretty aggressive. It doesn't use any appreciable amount of oil and runs great. But it could have worked out just as good if I broke it in by the book, who knows? I took this risk with the Buell because I could fix it cheaply if my "break-in" caused it to use oil or have other problems. That thing that Harley says about their synthetic oil... you nailed it, ALL marketing. They absolutely cannot disallow the use of another synthetic oil. But hey, give them credit, at least they finally dropped their old "synthetics are too slippery" BS. Well, I thought they had until your post above. I wouldn't say they've dropped it. They very carefully danced around that subject when they released Syn3. Now they say that Syn3 isn't too slippery, but they haven't tested other synthetics in their engines, and therefore they don't have an opinion. My comment about oil being too slippery was right out of a Yamaha owners manual with regard to an engine that contains a centrifugal clutch. What allows an engine oil to lubricate in a hydrodynamic film (like on a cylinder wall) is its viscosity. Viscosity is viscosity is viscosity. The viscosity of a 20W50 weight conventional oil is in the same range as a 20W50 synthetic oil. You are correct, but you are leaving the dynamics of the contents of the additive package out of the equation. What kind of additives? How much? As I said in my last post, oils are formulated for different lubricity characteristics depending on their intended application. If different engines didn't have different requirements there wouldn't be hundreds of different formulas available on the shelf at your local parts store. One other thing you can perhaps point me towards is the "supporting data from several engine manufacturers" that you offer as evidence supporting your advice to not use synthetic oil during break-in. I've been searching for that kind of evidence for ten years now. I have yet to find any credible (meaning something based upon honest investigation, not conjecture) evidence that supports the idea that a synthetic oil will cause problems if used during break-in. I have already supplied data from Mitsubishi and BMW motorcycles. I'm not saying every manufacturer agrees. I listed two manufacturers that I have experience with. If you want more, try google. Maybe you'll find something, maybe you won't  I worked in an auto shop back when I was in high school. Saw a few rebuilt engines whose rings refused to seat/seal. Those engines were using conventional oil. See how anecdotal evidence can easily be used to further a point of debate? Absolutely. But please keep in mind I have no agenda here. I was just trying to help out. I don't really care if any of you ever buy another quart of HD oil, synthetic or conventional. If anything, from a service standpoint I should be hoping that you have ring seal problems. Maybe you would find your way into my shop But I don't work that way. I'd rather know that you were out there enjoying the bike instead of dealing with mechanical problems. It has been my experience that when an individual experiences a problem with their engine after switching to synthetic oil, they tend to suspect the synthetic oil as being the root cause, some will even confidently proclaim so. Do you know how many people have tried synthetic oil? Out of such a large group (sample), the mythical stories based purely upon assumptions of an unfortunate few propagate and become conventional wisdom. I don't operate on heresy. The two examples I have stated are backed up by factual recommendations from those manufacturers. Have I ever seen the data they used to formulate their opinions about synthetic oil and break in? No, but in the case of Mitsubishi I've seen support of their data in engines I've taken apart in the field. That's good enough for me. As for BMW, I follow their instructions. That way if it breaks it's unquestionably their dime, not mine. Racing car engines such as those used in NASCAR, CART, and Formula-1 are all broken-in using synthetic oil. Synthetic oil is NOT more slippery than conventional oil. It just lasts longer and requires fewer if any additives to achieve the desired multi-viscosity performance. Once again I agree with you about the fact that they use synthetic from the beginning, but that break in is under very controlled circumstances, something that cannot be achieved on the street. As for the "slipperiness" of an oil, I agree the oil isn't more slippery. But the additive package in the oil can be. | ||
| Tripper |
an oil thread, and arguing with dyna to boot.... Big Bird you must love agrevation. By the way, what happened to that S3 you had, or am I confusing you with someone else? | ||
| Blake |
Wow, I load the page, go off and take care of some chores, play with the dog, come back, type a reply and find I'm a day's worth of reading behind in the thread already.  I'll throw my comments into the mix on some points that I think are worth clarifying... Bigbird, "Harley claims they haven't tested ANY brand of synthetic in their engines except Syn3." Logically speaking, what does that mean? Do automobile manufacturers test their engines with every applicable lubricant that appears to meet their specifications? HD's statement sounds ominous; in truth it has very little meaning. "...there is no reason to drop the factory fill of oil and install Syn3 prior to completion of intial break in, unless you just want to waste your money." I agree, except in the case of very hard use and/or in a hot environment or where the bike will be stopped and started excessively frequently (demo rides at Daytona?). In those cases the superior protection provided by a synthetic base oil would be warranted, at least for me. "There are manufacturers who specifically state NOT to use synthetic oil during break in. In fact, until the release of Syn3 last year Harley specifically stated that synthetics should not be used AT ALL in their engines, AT ANY TIME. I'm not making this stuff up." I've not found a single manufacturer of new automobiles or motorcycles who has stated such a thing. Please point me towards the documented (not hearsay, not what some guy said) source of your information. If what you say is true, the manufacturers would certainly put such an admonition in writing within every owner's manual in order to ensure that their customers avoid doing damage to their engine and thus making related warranty claims. "The manual to my quad doesn't use the word "synthetic", but specifically states avoiding the use of "oils of a quality higher than specified." They claim these "higher quality oils" are too slippery for the clutch and other engine components." I'd sure like to see the exact and complete wording from which you pulled those quoted fragments. What do they mean by "quality"? Could they be talking about a "higher" viscosity grade or a lubricant with special anti friction/antiwear additives? I believe that they are. A friend of mine once put some STP into his Japanese motorcycle (common engine/tranny lube); his clutch would not engage. The super thick and tenacious STP prevented the clutch from engaging. He drained it and replaced it with straight engine oil, the clutch commenced to working fine again. "I already stated BMW Motorcycle divisions specific requirement that synthetic oil is not to be used prior to 6500 miles. " Again, please point me towards the official documentation stating such a policy by BMW wrt break-in and use of synthetic based oils. "Their engines can take upwards of 12,000 miles for full ring seating to take place due to the combination of nikasil cylinders and the ring material they use." Do you really believe that? I don't. At an average of 5,000 rpm for 12,000 miles and an average speed of 50 mph, each piston would complete 144,000,000 strokes; that's 144 MILLION times that the piston and its rings would slide through the cylinder. If it takes that much use to seal the rings, the engine designer should be shot. In truth, the rings will seal very quickly if they are going to seal at all. "We were specifically taught in school to advise our customers to let break-in complete before using synthetic oils." Another case of someone telling someone else to tell their customer not to use synthetic oil during break-in. Was that advise not important enough to include within the owner's manuals? Your examples/rationalizations and those of many others who argue the same point wrt synthetic oils are classic examples of cognitive dissonance or "CD" for short. What is cognitive dissonance? In short, it is a psychological mechanism of denial in refutation of the truth in order to protect oneself from a violation of long held beliefs. In this case, technicians, the motorsports press, and many at the dealerships have literally intimidated and frightened people into believing that synthetic oil is dangerous to use during break-in. The oft propagated "too slippery" rationale is preached. Anecdotal examples are offered as supporting evidence. Some synthetic oil peddlers even support the notion. They have to. They have made it a practice to deceive the public by making wild claims about the greater slipperyness of their product. The belief becomes rumor becomes conventional wisdom becomes accepted as scientific fact. It even makes it into print and is offered up by "experts" as truth. When confronted with such "evidence" and "expert" advice/testimony, people are convinced of the truth of fallacious information. Now when someone offers the truth about the issue, that synthetic oil is fine to use during break-in and otherwise, many people remain unconvinced of the honest truth. No one likes to think that they've been fooled. Like an optical illusion, even the most rational, highly educated, and intelligent people will see the words and evidence, yet still retain their long held perception. Their thinking is distorted by cognitive dissonance. CD completely blocks disturbing new information from entering the consciousness, just as if it never existed. Some will immediately get over it and see the synthetic oil bad-for-break-in deception for what it is. But, there's no question that others will come up with a powerful rationalization in order to keep on believing the myth. Whatever the rationale is, it will ignore the concept of cause and effect, so it won't be a scientifically sound reason. I borrowed and paraphrased the above discussion of CD from http://www.mototuneusa.com/circular_logic.htm . "Once again, I'll ask for proof of your claims about citgo, and being no different than any other 20/50. Certainly if you know it to be true you should be able to prove it. If you can't prove it I'll have to assume you really just don't know what you are talking about. No offense intended." I agree, I'm ALL for "proof." Why not apply the same standard to your own statements? "Since Harley doesn't test and certify any synthetic oil but Syn3, using any oil other than Syn3 may or may not open you up to liability for a failure, depending on whether or not that oil meets or exceeds HD requirements when tested or analyzed." What you say is true on the surface. If you have an engine failure and HD can show irrefutably that an inferior/incorrect lubricant was the root cause of the failure, they can deny warranty coverage. Firstly, HD cannot by law require the use of any specific brand product in order to maintain warranty, unless that is they provide said product free of charge. They also must specify some description that will allow the owner to determine an acceptable substitute. HD does this wrt engine oil by specifying the viscosity grades that are acceptable along with suggesting that the oil should also satisfy minimum requirements for use in diesel engines. If your oil fulfills those requirements, HD will have absolutely no recourse towards withhold an engine warranty claim on the basis of improper/inferior lubrication. None. I defy you to produce one single documented case were an engine warranty claim was duly rejected because of the failure of any name brand W50 grade synthetic oil to satisfy HD's lubrication requirements. Dyna, "HD is not a big enough consumer in the oil world to dictate a specific formulation." I disagree, oils are formulated quite easily, simply specify the base stock and additives and it gets mixed up and packaged. We could easily create our own "BadWeB" formulated synthetic oil and sell it online. "Just what do you think syn is made from? The base stock is dino, its better refined with extra additives that increase the ability to handle heat & wear." While there is a grain of truth to your statement wrt some of the newer automotive synthetic oils (Castrol Syntech), in general your statement is incorrect. The vast majority of "synthetic" base oils are synthesized directly from hydrocarbons and their constituents having little resemblance to petroleum. For instance, during WW-II the Germans were very concerned about being caught without a continuous supply of petroleum; they developed synthetic hydrocarbons to address that concern. We now have commercially available optimally engineered synthesized racing fuels and synthesized lubricants as a convoluted result. What is true is that synthetic oils are comprised of long chain hydrocarbon (HC) molecules and that small quantities of similar molecules are found within the hodgpodge collection of widely varying HC molecules comprising conventional base oils. Synthetics simply do away with the less desirable shorter chain hydrocarbon molecules in favor of keeping only the very optimum configuration of molecule. Race gas is formulated similarly, with only the most optimum performing molecules. Of course I could be all wrong. | ||
| Bads1 |
Bigbird last year I attended primary officer training in Milwaukee.....seeing I just live 15 miles south in Racine.Anyways during that training seminar the question was asked by a attendee who makes the new syntec 3 HD oil???Dyna is 100% correct that Citgo makes there synthetic oil and yes to there specifics to what I understand.I was amazed that Citgo of all companies was the supplier. | ||
| Court |
In this day and age an argument over Fossil vs. synthetic is akin to arguing which side to put the spark advance on the steering column. The discussion is mere entertainment. I've got 130,000 on the current carriage with Mobil 1 in it at 3K intervals since day one. I know: 1) I can got at least twice that between changes. 2) Any oil, even this cheapest crap you can buy, in this age is damn good oil. An opinion, and mine only without need for anyone to agree or disagree. Thanks for the entertainment and I'll be eager to see how may Corvette, D-9 Caterpillar tractor and Porsche 911 owners sue the mothership for flawing their breakin period. Court | ||
| Blake |
"He will also be able to verify my claim that BMW has a service bulletin specifically stating that they don't approve of the use of SH/SJ oils." Come on now, that isn't what you originally claimed. You claimed they advised against using "synthetic" oil. The SH/SJ "energy conserving" automotive oils are all W30 grade or lower and certainly need not be synthetic. Neither do all synthetic oils meet the SH/SJ specifications, some do, some don't. The API SJ "energy conserving" specification requires a significant lowering of certain anti-wear additives that can attack and damage catalytic converters. It is that reduction in concentration of those anti-wear additives that most likely prompts BMW to advise against the use of SJ oils in their motorcycles. Their concern has NOTHING to do with the type of base stock utilized or break-in. I also would wager that they refer to the "energy conserving" description. If not, they should, because the higher grade oils (greater than W30 grade), even though complying with SJ are exempted from the SJ rating's limitations on antiwear additives. "I believe that the manufacturers recommendations are usually designed to provide the longest overall life of the engine..." I'm doubtful of that. I think as far as the rings are concerned that your quick seating method is the way to go. The less blow-by the better. Blow-by pollutes and degrades the oil. On your Mitsubishi "in the field" experience. What exactly did you see? My comments wrt the anecdotal evidence were not mean to indict you personally, just point out how these myths get started and propagate themselves into conventional wisdom. Again, your Yamaha manual says what exactly wrt the use of "synthetic" oils? I've searched for ten years for an owner's manual or official factory service bulletin that says that the use of "synthetic" based oil is unacceptable during break-in or otherwise. You even just made the point yourself that it isn't the base stock, but the additives that are of concern. "...you are leaving the dynamics of the contents of the additive package out of the equation. What kind of additives? How much? As I said in my last post, oils are formulated for different lubricity characteristics depending on their intended application. If different engines didn't have different requirements there wouldn't be hundreds of different formulas available on the shelf at your local parts store." The only major differences I see are viscosity grade and base stock. The oils have no real tangible indication of their additive package that would allow any meaningful comparison. All we need know is the SAE viscosity grade and applicable API rating. Beyond that, you'd have to do lab tests to determine any differences between engine oils. CD is kicking your ass on this. Trust me, I've researched the issue intensely for some time. A synthetic base stock, with appropriate additive package will NOT hurt/hinder engine break-in. One other note. Do you realize you've changed your supporting rationalization from too slippery for ring seating to a Yamaha manual saying that some oil is too slippery for proper clutch operation? Again, I'd like to see the complete and exact text wrt that statement by Yamaha. I've seen too many such statements, and they've not said a thing about "synthetic" oil. They do caution against the use of additives (like STP) and the use of improper viscosity grades. And I certainly would not leap from a caution wrt clutch operation to concluding that a synthetic oil is too slippery to allow proper ring seating. But we both agree that synthetic oil is NOT any more slippery than an equivalent viscosity conventional oil. Now I'm confused. The bottom line is that you'll not likely find a single official document by any major new vehicle manufacturer that disallows the use of synthetic based oil during break-in. If you do, I'd sure like to get a copy. You might want to read one of your very own sources... http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html It gives a comprehensive description and analysis of the issue wrt BMW motorcycles and API SJ rated oils. Apparently the SH oils are okay and BMW even approves of an SJ rated oil as long as it also carries one of the prior (SG or SH) ratings. Read the article and find the irony in that. Again, the API rating has NOTHING to do with the type of base stock used, but the information is contrary to your assertions, and I thought you'd appreciate clarification on the issue. Are you convinced? CD still got you? Come into the light. I know it's tough after so many years of incessant attack by misinformation, much of it proffered by "experts", but I know you can do it. edited by blake on February 29, 2004 | ||
| Bigbird |
Blake, I'm not going to keep wasting my time arguing this. I originally posted with a combination of the results of factory training, 20 years worth of experience, and information that is widely known amongst the BMW community, having originated from BMWAG. I've given you the avenues to verify most of my statements. I'm sorry that is not good enough for you, but it's becoming clear and evident that my advice is not believed or wanted. That is perfectly ok, but this response will be my last on the subject because I don't want to waste my energy if no one is going to believe me or at least investigate the avenues I have provided to prove the truth of my statements. Bigbird, "Harley claims they haven't tested ANY brand of synthetic in their engines except Syn3." Logically speaking, what does that mean? Do automobile manufacturers test their engines with every applicable lubricant that appears to meet their specifications? HD's statement sounds ominous; in truth it has very little meaning. I don't expect HD to test every oil. I was simply making a statement that HD hasn't tested (at least they haven't acknowledged testing) any synthetic except Syn3. Likewise, I don't expect every oil producer to test their product in a Harley-Davidson. But personally I won't use any oil in my Buell or Harley, synthetic or otherwise, that doesn't specify its ability to meet or exceed HD specifications. That argument does not limit me to HD oils, but due to the fact that my Buell is under warranty, and also due to the fact that HD oils have proven to be a good choice for their products, why would I want to use anything else? I agree, except in the case of very hard use and/or in a hot environment or where the bike will be stopped and started excessively frequently (demo rides at Daytona?). In those cases the superior protection provided by a synthetic base oil would be warranted, at least for me. To each their own...for my bike I'd leave it alone until it was due for it's first oil change and break in had completed. Then I would determine if I wanted to use a synthetic. Your mileage may vary... I've not found a single manufacturer of new automobiles or motorcycles who has stated such a thing. Please point me towards the documented (not hearsay, not what some guy said) source of your information. If what you say is true, the manufacturers would certainly put such an admonition in writing within every owner's manual in order to ensure that their customers avoid doing damage to their engine and thus making related warranty claims. I have already told you where you can get that proof. I am not a BMW dealer and cannot provide that proof. You'll have to call and get it yourself or go to the website I listed and talk to those folks. As a mere speculation perhaps it is not in every owners manual because they quite simply don't expect you to change the oil as soon as you get the car home. To do that would be, well, wasteful at the very least. But again, that is just my speculation, which I'm sure won't pass your scientific tests I'd sure like to see the exact and complete wording from which you pulled those quoted fragments. What do they mean by "quality"? Could they be talking about a "higher" viscosity grade or a lubricant with special anti friction/antiwear additives? I believe that they are. A friend of mine once put some STP into his Japanese motorcycle (common engine/tranny lube); his clutch would not engage. The super thick and tenacious STP prevented the clutch from engaging. He drained it and replaced it with straight engine oil, the clutch commenced to working fine again. I quoted the manual almost verbatim. I did not leave anything out so as to change the meaning at all. As far as the definition of "higher quality oils", ask the Japanese, or at least ask whoever translated the manual. Regardless don't ask me. But it did send a very clear message to me: use what the factory recommends and there is no guess work. Once again I have to present the fact that the factory stuff works well and I get it for a competitive price. Where is my incentive to deviate? "I already stated BMW Motorcycle divisions specific requirement that synthetic oil is not to be used prior to 6500 miles. " Again, please point me towards the official documentation stating such a policy by BMW wrt break-in and use of synthetic based oils. { Once again might I suggest you call the dealer, log onto bmwst.com, or even better yet go to www.bmwmotorcycles.com and ask them. Do you really believe that? I don't. At an average of 5,000 rpm for 12,000 miles and an average speed of 50 mph, each piston would complete 144,000,000 strokes; that's 144 MILLION times that the piston and its rings would slide through the cylinder. If it takes that much use to seal the rings, the engine designer should be shot. In truth, the rings will seal very quickly if they are going to seal at all. Absolutely I believe it and you are completely wrong in this respect (sorry). Having owned 4 BMW's (3 of them new), each of the new bikes used oil when new, and the amount of useage gradually decreased until they quit using oil around the 12,000 - 14,000 mile mark, depending on the bike. I know literally hundreds of BMW oilhead riders (late model oil cooled boxers) and almost all of them will tell you the same story. Again, go to the sources I have provided and prove me wrong. While your at it, prove that those rings and cylinders that supposedly don't take that long to seat can't possibly run 300,000 + miles between replacements and service. Sorry dude, but they really do take that long to seat, and the engines really do last that long as a result. I know of one BMW that is still running on the original bottom end with over 600,000 miles on the bike. It was documented in a recent issue of BMWON, the magazine of the BMW motorcycle owners of America. Another case of someone telling someone else to tell their customer not to use synthetic oil during break-in. Was that advise not important enough to include within the owner's manuals? I'm sorry the people employed by the company who builds the cars are not a credible enough source for you. I don't suppose there is anything I can do about that. Your examples/rationalizations and those of many others who argue the same point wrt synthetic oils are classic examples of cognitive dissonance or "CD" for short... Lets leave the psycho-babble out of the equation. The people who conjure that $hit up get paid too much anyway I borrowed and paraphrased the above discussion of CD from http://www.mototuneusa.com/circular_logic.htm . I should have known you were listening to that guy! I agree, I'm ALL for "proof." Why not apply the same standard to your own statements? I've done the best I can do. You'll have to go verify it with the sources I have provided. I already know it's true, so why should I waste my own time? What you say is true on the surface. If you have an engine failure and HD can show irrefutably that an inferior/incorrect lubricant was the root cause of the failure, they can deny warranty coverage. Woohoo, we agree! Firstly, HD cannot by law require the use of any specific brand product in order to maintain warranty, unless that is they provide said product free of charge. They also must specify some description that will allow the owner to determine an acceptable substitute. Again, we agree. This was a result of the Magnuson-Moss act. HD does this wrt engine oil by specifying the viscosity grades that are acceptable along with suggesting that the oil should also satisfy minimum requirements for use in diesel engines. If your oil fulfills those requirements, HD will have absolutely no recourse towards withhold an engine warranty claim on the basis of improper/inferior lubrication. None. I defy you to produce one single documented case were an engine warranty claim was duly rejected because of the failure of any name brand W50 grade synthetic oil to satisfy HD's lubrication requirements. This too is 100% correct, and exactly what I have been saying all along. I used API service ratings as an example of this exact situation in my last post. However, Dyna made a statement that he could use ANY oil, as long as he changed it at the recommended intervals. Sounds good to me. Next oil change he can fill his bike with 10 weight oil, and after it grenades lets see if the service department will cover it when they see how thin the oil is. Of course, depending on the dealer they might not be smart enough to know the difference Of course I could be all wrong. No, just partially wrong | ||
| Blake |
We're flying through these posts so quickly we're posting nearly simultaneously. Take a look at my last post. Again, we are trying to determine if any manufacturer advises against the use of synthetic based oil during break-in. You brought up a BMW advisory against using "SH/SJ" rated oils to support your point against using synthetic oil during break-in. Turns out, according to the link I posted above anyway, (that the BMW advisory was only wrt API "SJ" rated oils, not "SH". And it turns out that the advisory has nothing to do with the use of synthetic oils, only the reduced levels of anti-wear additives in the automotive SJ oils. What does the bottom end of an engine have to do with ring sealing during break-in? And how do you know the oil use through the first 12K miles of a BMW is due to a lack of ring seal? And what does that have to do with synthetic oil? How does the longevity of an engine indict or support the type of break-in oil used? See all the anecdotal stuff creeps into a discussion and it all seems so convincing, but it has NOTHING to do with the issue... Synthetic oil is perfectly fine to use during engine break-in. Case closed. Who was wrong?  Issue... Acceptability of using synthetic oil during break in. Your case... BMW says not to use SH/SJ rated oils. Problem... API SH/SJ rating has nothing to do with the composition of the oil's base stock. Problem... BMW objected to only SJ, not SH. Problem... BMW's concern was about the reduction of anti-wear additives and reduced engine protection mandated by the new SJ specification, NOT any inability of rings to seal or problems with break-in. In fact, reduced levels of anti-wear additives would likely accelerate ring seating, not prolong/prevent it do to being "too slippery" which is exactly opposite to your point. Your case... Some vehicle manufacturers provide documentation advising against using "higher quality" lubricants to ensure proper operation of a clutch. Problem... Clutch operation has nothing to do with engine break-in or the applicability of synthetic oil use during break-in. Problem... The intended meaning of the term "higher quality" is unclear and most likely has NOTHING to do with the type of base stock used. Most likely it is referring to special additives like STP and/or "higher" viscosity grades. Your Case... Synthetic oil is too slippery to allow proper ring sealing during break-in... err... no it isn't, never mind that, but it's the associated additives that are the problem. Yeah... That's it... It's the additives that cause problems during break-in. Problem... Additives in synthetic oil are the same additives that are used in conventional oil, AND they are used in similar concentrations. Your case... The vehicle manufacturers recommend against using synthetic oil during break-in. Problem... No they don't. And in fact MANY ship vehicles provisioned with 100% synthetic base engine oil. Did I miss anything?  edited by blake on March 01, 2004 | ||
| Blake |
Really good info on oil and additives and stuff... http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html (same link posted above). | ||
| Dynarider |
However, Dyna made a statement that he could use ANY oil, as long as he changed it at the recommended intervals Wrong, I said So long as the oil is certified by the manufacturer of the oil as being safe to use then you are good to go Maybe you are the one with the reading comprehension problems? Ahh, now were's getting personal. Ok, I can play that game too. Quite frankly I'm still waiting for you to provide actual proof of any of the claims you've made in this thread, and you have provided nothing. You don't know squat about motor oil, warranty, or anything else. And just in case someone wants to take your advice about choosing motor oil I offer the following, quoted from your profile: I wasnt getting personal yet you keep referring to others who dont subscribe to your opinions as being basically reading impaired. You have offered no proof of any of your claims with regards to BMW or Mitsubishi. And claiming You don't know squat about motor oil, warranty, or anything else is ridiculous. You obviously have no idea what I am involved in & have been for the better part of the last 18 months. Your assertion is ridiculous. Oh & thanks for bringing up the X1's issues, I had almost completely forgotten about those. You will be most pleased to learn that the X1 only used HD 20w/50 oil for its entire life & was changed every 2000 miles. I have the receipts to back that up too. But I guess you just couldnt help yourself & simply made an assumption & jumped the gun on that one. Just like 99% of the service writers I have run into. Big on bullshit & very short on substance. Will repeat the same diatribe only slightly reworded in an attempt to baffle us with bullshit. | ||
| Hootowl |
Good lord, not this again. Mobil 1 is factory fill in Dodge Vipers. Synthetics have higher heat tolerance than dino. How can that be bad in an air cooled engine? Also, the words motor and engine are nearly interchangeable, the exception being rockets. There are different camps on this of course. I have to go. Got to go to the department of motor vehicles to get plates for my trailer so I can haul my boat to the lake. I just put a new outboard motor on it. Or maybe I'll just go ride my engine cycle. | ||
| Blake |
Dyna, To be clear, you should add that the oil meets the OEM recommended SAE viscosity grade and service type. Bigbird is right, according to your definition you could use a W10 weight oil in the middle of Summer. |
