| Author | Message | ||
     Swordsman |
"Maybe I'll get Ann to ride with me and wear the back pack, and I'll just yell "BOOST" when I need that little bit extra." LOL! Man, that made me laugh out loud! Like the little Honda guys yelling out "V-tech!" when the variable valve timing kicks in!  ~SM | ||
| Srwitt |
R/C stuff, lol my heli hasn't been out since the snow flew, but my r/c rock crawler has. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I got a 2-stroke back pack blower. I'll put on the blower, route the output hose through my air box. It'll be a little bit tricky with the two throttles. Maybe I'll get Ann to ride with me and wear the back pack, and I'll just yell "BOOST" when I need that little bit extra. No lie, we mounted one of those backpack leack blowers to the hood of a 1990 Pontiac Bonneville 3800. Blew up the tranny in about 7 minutes. | ||
| Srwitt |
Blew the tranny? What did you sit there doing burnouts? I know the GM 3.8 is a tough engine, but damn, I would expect engine damage from one of those leaf blowers, they can move some air. | ||
| Moosestang |
I don't think people understand how fast an engine sucks in air at high rpms, probably sucks in air faster than any leaf blower can push it. You might get 1psi over atmospheric pressure if you are lucky. Atmospheric pressure at sea level is equal to 14.7psi. I'm sure someone smarter than I can explain it better. I know I have a blower on my car making 10-11psi and it's spinning hella fast to do that. I can't imagine the electrical energy it would take to make the same amount of boost. | ||
| Bombardier |
Is it boost that is the issue or flow? Engines have vacuum because the restrictions in the inlet cannot deliver everything the engine can use. If these fans merely allowed the engine to flow all that it was capable of it would make a lot of difference. That being said, if the fan only had to supply the air at atmospheric and not above the resistance would not be that extreme. Comments? | ||
| Moosestang |
It has to be able to pressurize the combustion chamber over atmospheric to make a difference. There shouldn't be any vacuum at wide open throttle, the vacuum is created by the throttle plate limiting the amount of air the engine can suck in, it should be at zero pressure(atmospheric) when wide open. I'm assuming buell did their homework and have a properly flowing throttle body for the engine. Do the 12 and 9 have the same throttle body/intake manifold? I just don't want to see a buell going down the road with a leaf blower duct taped to it. it will be more of a restriction than anything. | ||
| H2owerker |
I've got a turbo on my car spiking at 21psi (2500rpm), dropping to 19psi (2800rpm), and dropping from there (6k). That turbo is spooling somewhere around 40,000rpm(?)...and it is intended to create pressure while pushing air at a vacuum. I don't believe that a leaf-blower is designed to do much when facing resistance. It's primary function is to move large amounts of air in a focused direction. "Is it boost that is the issue or flow? "-Bombardier Boost=pressure Pressure=resistance to flow | ||
| Buford |
These folks are developing a turbo supercharger set-up for the XBs: http://www.boostisgood.com/ | ||
| Bombardier |
"Is it boost that is the issue or flow? "-Bombardier Boost=pressure Pressure=resistance to flow So the question is - can the electric supercharger flow enough air to make a significant improvement without drawing too much current? | ||
| H2owerker |
Moosetang is right. The electrical energy required would be amazing. It would also suffer from electro-mechanical losses, and be less efficient than a belt driven supercharger. I'm no expert, so don't take this as gospel. I think that compressing air at the required CFM would take somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-10HP. | ||
| Biff |
ok kids... I have always thought about this... but never had a place to voice it. I think this might be the best home for this idea. What if you had a canister... or 10 canisters of compressed air in the bed of a pickup (or car). and they were all tied together with a piece of pvc running to the intake. The intake has a back flow valve, with the compressed air on the engine side of that valve. Could you use compressed air (with a regulator next to the engine) as a source of a quick shot of horse power? you would have a solenoid that could "boost" the engine on call. kind of like a shot of nitrous, but with air. here is a diagram:  how many cfms of air does a motor use at 4,000 rmps? I guess it would be the size of motor (5.0L) x number of revolutions. Therefore, in theory (and my VERY rough math)... for a buell 9 series (which is approximately 1 liter) to run the quarter mile with 5 lbs of boost how much air would you need? lets figure the estimate high and say it will take 13 seconds to run the quarter (it wont... but for math) and you run the entire length at max rpms (for math again) that is around (6,500/60*13) 14,084 revolutions... or 14,084 litters pumped through the motor. this is, however a mixture of gas and air... not just straight air. the ratio (for quote "ideal conditions") of air to fuel is 14.7 to 1 therefore we can reduce our 14084 by 1 for ever 14.7 =~13,126 liters of air. 13,126 liter of air = 464 cubic feet of air at 0 boost. this is where I need the smart guys to pick up the answer to my equation. I how do I find the needed cubic feet of air for 5psi? is it simply 5 times 464? I don't think that is right. IF it is... that would be 2,320 cubic feet of air. how big would the tank need to be to hold that much air? big I would guess. I think I need someone to double check my math... I could be way off. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Electric superhcargers are for the most part snake oil. Most of the ones on ebay they sell are nothing more than overpriced bilge pumps from boats! There is one company that makes "real" electric superchargers, E-Ram,BUT, they make at most I think 2 PSI, which isnt worth anything. They cost starting $300. For the effort, any mod would be more beneficial, power and cost wise. Just my 2 cents from having this discussion a billion times on the Ford Focus forums. | ||
| H2owerker |
Compressing 2300cf of 'air' into a receiver tank of a usable size is possible. You just need a good regulator to control the output pressure. Atmospheric 'air' has a relatively low oxygen content. that's one of the reasons that N,O2 (nitrous) is popular. It contains 3times the oxygen, doesn't release the oxygen until the combustion temperature reaches approx. 500deg. and cools the combustion chamber upon entry...With proper fuel/timing management it is the (nearly) perfect power booster. | ||
| Clutchless |
http://www.gizmag.com/go/3471/ http://www.gizmag.com/go/8183/ might wanna take a look at those two bikes. just an F.Y.I for anyone interested in boosting their business. | ||
| Ochoa0042 |
I was thinking about that compressed air canister/system for a car, like what if the has a compressor linked somehow to the engine and a compressed air tank, so the air is constantly few to the engine in pressure.... 1500HP bugatti please and also, isnt compressed air colder because of the science of compressing it and all??? (Message edited by ochoa0042 on December 24, 2008) | ||
| Ducxl |
What're you going to do to the flywheels and connecting rod assemblies as well as the primary chain and clutch basket as well as the transmission? These are all not up to the task of almost (or exactly) doubling the horsepower The XBRR,which had something like 150HP had SPECIAL cases and components to handle that kind of power. It seems "half-assed" to discuss a supercharger and not address the WHOLE PACKAGE. A badweb associate ruined his otherwise stock XB engine by adding nitrous. Supercharging=a grenade motor | ||
| Moosestang |
and also, isnt compressed air colder because of the science of compressing it and all??? Compressing air actually heats it which is why I have an intercooler on my car to cool the air charge. Maybe you are thinking of C02. Like I said in the beginning, buy a faster bike or a different motor. I'd love to bolt a 145hp motor to my xb frame, but I have no clue how. | ||
| Smoke |
the air cools as it expands out of the tank to open air, although i have not observed the effects of piping it to the intake it should cool somewhat. it heats up while filling due to the friction of all those molecules being forced tightly together and cools as released and the molecules spread back out. (packed a lot of helicopter floats) regulated nos would work better than air,just watch your tuning! tim | ||
| Surveyor |
OK, I just got some good data from ProCharger via Walt Sipp. ProCharger seem to have some really good Supercharger kits but not for a Buell. I'm not sure yet if they do a kit for a Sporster but if they do and the sportster primary casing is similar to the XB it might be possible to modify the Sportster kit to fit. If not they might be willing to make something up if enough people were interested? The kits run about €5000 including an air to air intercooler. If anyone is interested let me know. Air temperature is critical as cold air is denser, air compressed by the charger becomes hot and the intercooler cools it again, any of the electrical superchargers I've seen blow straight into the inlet tract. Performance with an air to air intercooler is almost twice that of a system with no inter cooling. | ||
| Hogs |
Hey Surveyor, Keep me posted on them, If they ever decide to get them up and running, Guys around here have them on the Big Twins..and they sure work good... | ||
| Biff |
i live about 5 minutes away from procharger's headquarters. Do they need a test mule (for a discounted kit!!!)? | ||
| Surveyor |
Biff, They didn't say anything about needing a test bike but I'm going to ask them about the modified Sportster option and suggest that there may be a pent up Buell market here on BWB if enough people are interested. I'll keep everyone posted, or why not go ahead and talk to 'em yourself they seem like good people to deal with. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Just to close one open question above... When you compress air, it does heat up. PV=NRT (P=preasure, T=Temperature), So if Pressure goes up, temperature goes up. If pressure goes down, temperature goes down. In a perfect system, if you pumped it up X amount, it would gain Y amount of heat, and when you let X expand back out, you would loose Y amount of heat, and you would be even. But if you wanted to "game the system", you go to one place and pump it up (making it hot). Then you let it cool in the air, bleeding that heat into "someplace else". Then carry the tank of compressed air someplace else, and decompress it. The tank actually gets colder then the air around it. No magic really, it just "traded" heat from point A to remove it from point B, and in this case A and B are different points. This is how air conditioning and refrigeration work. They make hot places hotter to make cold places colder. The more I thought about the realities of how to make an electric air booster, or even a supercharger work, the more sense a turbo makes to me. | ||
| Eengler2 |
try an 1125r!! cheaper in the long run. BINGO! | ||
| Ochoa0042 |
the 1125R rear-sets are attached to the engine block, so expect you feet to go numb with that rattle box engine | ||
| Caféelite |
I can spit on the procharger building from my apartment. I should walk over and chat w/ them. Biff do you live off oakmount st? | ||
| Biff |
I can spit on the procharger building from my apartment. I should walk over and chat w/ them. Biff do you live off oakmount st? I live in OP... 435 & Quirvira. | ||
| Ratfink |
Will people just stop talking about those electric "super chargers"!!!! We all know they don't work for our application (or anything automotive for that manner) and are nothing but a gimmick to get stupid peoples money! I will admit that I have no reason to increase the power output of my bike. I have an exhaust on the way, but purely for sound enjoyment. You wanna beat their ass in straights on a Buell? Do what people are saying to do and buy an 1125r. The $3000 you would spend on a power adder would be a great starting point for the price of one. Caf and Biff, I didn't know procharger was in KC. That's another thing I have learned bout this place since I've lived here. But I'm north in Smithville, MO. hit me up sometime. | ||
| Ericz |
I have had a turbo on my XB12 since late 2006. My best dyno run showed 126hp and 100ft/lbs at the wheel. I am working on some new ideas for better weight distribution, heat management, simplicity and reliability, horsepower!! and cool factor and should have it up and running by mid-feb. A supercharger works well but is limited by how it's driven. Both a supercharger and a turbocharger prove to be complex animals on an XB simply in unit placement, let alone the many other factors such as making it functional, aesthetically pleasing, and reliable. Remember that airflow is never linear. Turbochargers and superchargers have maps that show efficiency based on volume of airflow and pressure. All of that depends on engine displacement, volumetric efficiency, rpm, air temperature, and many more factors!! It is no simple project if you want to build something that works well over a broad rpm range!! |
