| Author | Message | ||
     Chaos_saint |
Alright hello all, I've been looking at bikes for over a year now trying to find that right bike. My first choice was a 2005 xb9s black/silver, but wasn't in my liking for condition for having 12,xxx miles on it So back in July I almost bought an 05 gsxr 600 but thought about it more and decided I didn't need a bike at the moment Now my position is between a Buell (2003 xb9s black silver 6,300MI) or a 2005 suzuki (gsxr 600 black and orange, 24xxMI) I know what rockets can do, but also how reliable they are I think the buell would be a better first street bike but I hear all the old buell rumors I have a buddy with an 01 cbr 600rr that runs perfect to this day and looks the same also I also have a buddy with a buell S1 that says the newer buells are more reliable I love both bikes and both are at good prices right now The buell is nice and I did LOVE the lightning but I find the gsxr more comfortable. I find and my friends advise me that the buell is pretty much a perfect starting bike. But I hear different from others now I am from wisconsin!!!! yes born and raised so buell parts are probably cheaper than suzuki parts any day of the weak also so let the advice flow in through the heavens, I do love both bikes but don't want to hurt myself I'm 21 and have a gf I wouldn't like to depart from with a motorcycle accident | ||
| Chaos_saint |
Also about maintaining the bike is it really that bad to maintain a buell where you need to use loctite on most everything? | ||
| Oxygen151 |
I am 21 also, and I love my 2005 Buell XB12Scg. I have had it for a year now, and I have not had any major problems with it. Only a few little odds and ends that I have been able to diagnose and fix myself, well of course with the help of these forums as well. If a Buell does break, they typically are much easier and less costly to repair than the Jap bikes. The Suzuki's regular maintenance is also more costly than a Buell. The Suzuki is a great bike, but how many of them do you see a day and how fast do you really need to go on the street? Being 21 and in college i dont have a ton of disposable income, so insurance prices were another factor in my decision. You will pay a lot more in insurance if you go with the Suzuki. The buellers and the Jap crowd with go back and forth forever on how much their bikes are better than the opposites but ultimately both bikes are great machines. It comes down to what you want to get from the bike. If you want unique styling and handling, go with the Buell. You will be happy. Both bikes are dangerous, and if this is your first bike then definitely take an MSF class or something similar to that. One thing I also would consider is how long you plan to keep the bike. When I look back at crotch rockets from the early 2000's compared to now, I find then incredibly ugly (IMO, no offense to anyone). Looking back at the first XB's in 2003, compared to the ones that just rolled off the line, they still look great. Good Luck! | ||
| Ochoa0042 |
a XB12 is a big bike, but its slower than a 600 at topend, but it will cream them off the line.... a 600 is a bad & unwise choise for a starter bike, and so is a 12 even though how user friendly it is I've never ridden an XB9, but I think it would be THE perfect starter bike if you're leaning towards a buell | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
vicious vicious rumors, These bikes are actually very reliable and Will almost certainly get more miles out of them than a IL4 600. They are very easy to maintain. If you want to go really fast and like a buzzing sound then go with the gsxr. If you want the most fun you have ever had on two wheels, a bike that has a lot of torque, and one that sounds like american mucle pick the buell. as far as which bike would be the best for a starter, and depite what squids think any bike can be ok for starters as long as you respect them. Just because you have the ability to go 100+ mph does not mean you need too. also the buell will prob. be easier to ride than the gsxr because with il4 600s you have to keep the revs up and if you are in the wrong gear you will know it. but the buell with its more liner power will be more forgiving because there is almost no wrong gear. | ||
| Ochoa0042 |
 bragging about torque | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the IL4s are faster over, say 100mph. Under that The Buell will eat them up. My advice (from a noob) is if you want a bike to go to the track,and do 200mph go with the cbr. If you want a bike that is faster and better handling in real life, Buell. But then again what do I know... | ||
| Ebuella_virus |
I got my 12R just before I sold my Ninja 600. What these guys have said is true. If you like the top end, get the Suzi. If you're worried about bolts rattling off, all bolts on any machine with a engine are gonna need tendin' to at one time or another. I've had a few rattle off my Ninja several times. True, I've had more rattle loose (not off) my Bolt, but with an aftermarket can on it, it's easy to see why. I like the Buell for it's looks, tech, torque, handling, and, most of all, the ease of maintenance. No chain to tend to (adjustments or lubing) for the lifetime of the bike (new belts), no valve adjustments (big bucks), no worries about coolant, and the muscle sound. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Loctite? I hate loctite and use it sparingly. It is necessary for certain components on any bike so there's no valid reason to use that as a measuring stick. There are better products for other applications. I have the 9R and enjoy it. Fast enough to get me into trouble quickly: not enough horse to make it too easy. Not sure I need or want more power, except that we always need and want more power. | ||
| H2owerker |
Why are you comparing comfort between the XB9s and GSXR600? I'd recommend that if you're more comfortable on the GSXR600 a comparison to a XB9R is in order. You can change parts for looks/comfort between the 9S and 9R quite easily and have the best of both worlds. I'm going to copy/paste a post I found on another forum. I'd recommend taking the time to read this before making any decision about a 1st bike. I'd also strongly suggest taking a MSF course. Not only will you learn a lot of skills (ever people who've ridden for years learn something at these) you'll have a great time. Form Equals Function: Sportbikes are Not Beginner Bikes Introduction Well, another riding season is upon us and as it always happens, we get lots of inquiries from potential new riders on how to get into the sport, what's a good first ride, where to take safety classes and so on. One particular type of inquiry that pops up with almost clockwork frequency is from a small number of new riders who wish to buy 600cc and up sportbikes as their first ride. For the past year and a half, I, along with lots of other BB forum members, have entertained this question of 600cc sportbikes for a first ride with patience and lots and lots of repetition. It seems this small group of newbies keep coming back with the same arguments and questions over and over again. As a result, I am going to take the time in this column to try and put into words, answers that get repeated over and over on the BB forums. Allow me to state first and foremost that I am a sport rider. My first bike was a Ninja 250R and I put nearly 7000 miles on it in two seasons before selling it. I am presently shopping for my next ride and it will almost certainly be a sportbike or sport tourer in the 600-1000cc range. I am also building a track bike in my garage which I hope to complete this season (a Yamaha FZR600). Although I am not an expert rider by any stretch, I have tinkered enough and done enough research along with talking with other riders to be able to speak with some degree of knowledge on the subject. This column is split into two parts. First, I would like to address the common arguments we see here as to why a 600cc sportbike simply must be a first ride along with rebuttals. Second, I want to cover the rationale behind why the BB community-at-large steers new riders away from these machines. False Logic On about a three month interval, a whole slew of questions pop up on the BB forum from potential riders trying to convince the community that a 600cc sportbike is a suitable first ride and then proceed to explain to us why they are the exception. I can almost set my clock to this pattern of behavior since it is almost swarm-like. I guess the newbies figure by swamping the forum with the same questions in lots of places we might trip up and endorse such a machine. Hasn't happened yet but they keep on trying. For those of you that come to Beginner Bikes trying to convince us to endorse a 600cc sportbike, I offer you the following responses to your arguments. I can only afford to get one bike so it might as be the one that I want. I don't want to go through the hassle of buying and selling a used bike to learn on. These two lines of reasoning pop up as one of the more common arguments. I am going to offer first a piece of wisdom which is stated with great regularity on the forums: This is your first bike, not your last. Motorcycle riders are reputed to change bikes, on average, once every two to three years. If this is the case (and it appears to be based on my observations), the bike you learn to ride on will not be in your garage in a few years time anyway whether you buy it new or used. You're going to sell it regardless to get something different, newer, more powerful, more comfortable, etc. Yes, buying a bike involves effort and a financial outlay. Most of us simply cannot afford to drop thousands of dollars on a whim every time we want to try something new. Getting into riding is a serious commitment in time and money and we want the best value out it as much as possible. However, if you can afford to buy outright or finance a 600cc or up sportbike that costs $7000 on average, you can probably afford to spend $2000 or so on a used bike to learn on. Most of the beginner sportbikes we recommend here (Ninja 250/500, Buell Blast, GS500) can all be found used for between $1500-$3000. Done properly, buying and selling that first bike is a fairly painless process. Buying a used bike is no harder than buying new. I would argue it is a bit easier. No different than buying a used car from a private seller. If you've done that at least once, you'll know what to do in buying a used bike. Selling a beginner bike is even easier. You want to know why? Because beginner bikes are constantly in demand (especially Ninja 250s). These bikes spend their lives migrating from one new rider to the next to act as a teaching vehicle. It is not uncommon for a beginner bike to see four or five different owners before it is wrecked or junked. There are a lot of people out there looking for inexpensive, reliable bikes and all of our beginner recommendations fit into that category. If you buy a used Ninja 250R for $1500, ride it for a season or two, you can be almost guaranteed that you will be able to resell that bike for $1300 or so when you are done with it provided you take care of it. And on a bike like the Ninja 250R, the average turnaround on such a sale is two to three days. No joke. I had five offers on my Ninja 250R within FOUR HOURS of my ad going up on Cycle Trader. I put the bike on hold the same day and sold it four days later to a fellow who drove 500 miles to pick it up. My bike never made it into the print edition. Believe me, the demand is there. And look at it this way: For those one or two seasons of riding using the above example, excluding maintenance costs which you have no matter what, you will have paid a net cost of $200 to ride that Ninja. That is extremely cheap for what is basically a bike rental for a year or two. Considering it can cost $300 or more just to rent a 600cc sportbike for a weekend (not including the $1500-$2000 security deposit), that is economic value that you simply cannot argue with. Vanity Arguments The beginner bikes you recommend are dated and ugly looking. I want something that's modern and stylish. I want a bike that looks good and that I look good on. I call these the vanity arguments. These are probably the worst reasons you can have for wanting a particular bike. I will not disagree that aesthetics plays a huge part in the bikes that appeal to us. Motorcycles are the ultimate expression in personal taste in vehicles. Far more than cars. Bikes are more personal and the connection between rider and machine is far more intimate on a bike than a car. On a bike, you are part of the machine, not just a passive passenger. However, as entry into world of riding and with the temporarily status that most beginner bikes have in our garages, looks should be the least of your concerns. As long as the bike is in good repair and mechanically sound, that is usually enough for most new riders to be happy. Most riders are happy to ride and they will ride anything given the choice between riding or not riding. If you are looking at bike mainly because of how it looks and/or how you will look it and how others will perceive you on it, take a good, long, honest look as to why you want to ride. There are lots of people out there who buy things strictly because of how it makes them appear in the eyes of others. It's shallow and vain but it is a fact of life. It shouldn't be a factor in choosing that first ride but it is. I won't deny that. The difference is: a BMW or Mercedes generally won't leaving you hanging on for dear life if you stomp on the accelerator or throw you into the road if you slam on the brakes a little hard. Virtually ever sportbike made in the past 10-15 years will do both of those things given a chance to do so (for reasons that will be explained later in this column). The population at large may think you're cool and look great on that brand new sportbike and ohh-and-ahh at you. The ohhs can quickly turn to screams of horror should, in your efforts to impress the masses, you wind up dumping your bike and surfing the asphalt. Will you still look cool with thousands of dollars in damage to that once-beautiful sportbike and with the signatures and well-wishes of your friends on the various casts you'll be wearing months afterwards? You Be The Judge I'm a big rider so I need a bigger bike to get me around. I'm a tall rider and all of those beginner bikes just don't fit me the way the sportbike does. I'll look huge and foolish riding on such a small bike. My friends will laugh at me for riding something so small. These arguments are almost as bad as the vanity arguments. The difference being is they simply show a lack of motorcycle knowledge for the most part. Unless you are over 6'3" tall or are extremely overweight (meaning well over 300lbs), even the smallest 250cc motorcycle will be able to accommodate you without difficultly. To provide an example, the Ninja 250R has a load limit of 348 pounds. That is more than sufficient to accommodate a heavier rider in full gear and still leave plenty of space for cargo in tank, tail and saddle bags. Or enough to allow two-up riding between two average weight individuals. The idea that bigger riders need bigger bikes is almost laughable. It's like saying small drivers need Honda Civics but bigger drivers only 100 pounds heavier need to drive Hummers to get around. Or Corvettes with plenty of power to pull their ample frames, as the analogy goes. It is only because of the small physical size of bikes compared to their users that this train of thought even exists. It simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. A look at any motorcycle owner's manual will confirm that for you. Tall riders suffer more from fit issues than weight issues. On this, they do have a point. I'm a taller rider (6'1"). I do fold up quite comfortably on the Ninja 250 which is considered a small bike. I found it perfect for my frame. Others haven't. Then again, my knees hit the bars on bikes like the Rebel 250 and Buell Blast. Just different ergonomics that didn't fit me. For taller riders, a much better beginner fit is a dual-sport machine rather than a sport machine. They offer the high seat heights that make them comfortable rides and their power is well within acceptable limits. We have a small but vocal dual-sport community here and they will tell you, quite rightly, that a dual-sport is just as capable on twisty roads as a sportbike. The same properties that give sportbikes their cornering ability is also possessed by dual sports (high center of gravity). As to peer pressure, I admit to taking more than my fair share of ribbing from my 600cc riding friends. Some of it good natured, some of it not. In the end, this argument falls into the vanity arena. Which is more important: Your safety and comfort on a bike or what your friends think? The ways to deal with friends giving you a hard time about a smaller ride is very simple. Tell them to ride their rides and you'll ride yours. It's your ride, after all. Most true riders will accept other riders, no matter what they are on. Only posers and losers care that your ride doesn't measure up to their "standards". And if so, do you really want to be riding with them anyway? It's more fun to stand out than to be a member of a flock anyway. And if they don't buy that line of reasoning, try this one: "Well if you don't like my ride, why don't you go buy me something that you will like?". THAT will shut them up REALLY fast. It works too. Unless their name is on the payment book or the title, it shouldn't be their concern. If your friends can't deal with your decisions, you're probably better off looking for new friends. And if you can't deal with the peer pressure, then you are putting your own safety at risk solely because of what others think. Revisit the vanity arguments above and think about why you want to ride. Decision Justification Arguments I'll take it easy and grow into the bike. I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble. I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike. Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I? These arguments are the most common ones put forth and the ones that are hardest to deal with. These are the arguments that start flame wars. Because it is on these arguments that you have to convince someone the idea of what a beginner bike is over their preconceived notions. The arguments also often surface in what I call the "decision justification arguments". Many new riders have their heart set on a specific bike and often come to BB to ask about it not to get real advice but to get confirmation that their decision is right. In cruisers, standards, scooters and dual-sports, more often than not these "pre-decisions" are generally good ones. In sportbikes, more than 3/4 of the posters are trying to get the community to approve their choice of a 600cc machine as a first ride. Their shock is quite real when they are barraged with answers that don't meet their expectations and that is when a flurry of oft-repeated discussion ensues. Let's take each argument in turn since these are the ones that turn up with regularity. I'll take it easy and grow into the bike. The purpose of a first bike is to allow you to master basic riding skills, build confidence and develop street survival strategies. You don't grow into a bike. You develop your skills on it. As your skills develop, so does your confidence and with it, your willingness to explore what the bike is capable of. But you are also entering in a contract with the bike. It is two-way. You are going to expect the bike to act on your inputs and the bike in turn is going to respond. The problem is, your skills are still developing but the bike doesn't know that. It does what it is told. You want a partner in a contract to treat you fairly. On a bike, you don't want it fighting you every step of the way. And like most contracts, the problems don't start until there is a breakdown in communication or a misunderstanding. In sportbikes, the disparity between a new rider's fledgling skills and the responsiveness of the machine are very far apart. That is a wide gulf to bridge when you are still trying to figure out what the best inputs and actions on the bike should be. Ideally, you want your bike to do what you tell it and do it nicely. You never want the bike to argue with you. Modern sportbikes, despite their exquisite handling will often argue violently right at the moment a new rider doesn't need them to. Remember, riding is a LEARNED skill. It does not come naturally to the majority of us (save those like the Hayden brothers who were raised on dirt bikes from the moment they could walk). It must be practiced and refined. Riding is counter-intuitive to most new riders. It doesn't happen the way you expect. For example, at speeds over 25mph, to get a bike to go right, you actually turn the bars to the left. It's called counter-steering and it eventually comes naturally as breathing once you've been in the saddle for a while. But for new riders, this kind of thing is utterly baffling. You want your skills to grow in a measurable and predictable fashion. You have enough to be fearful of riding in traffic. The last thing you need is to be fearful of what your bike might do when you aren't ready for it. It's never a good situation. It is interesting to point out that only one manufacturer, Suzuki, explicitly states in their promotional material that their GSX-R family of sportbikes are intended for experienced riders. This also applies to several of their larger, more powerful machines (such as a GSX-1300R Hayabusa). If Suzuki issues such a warning for its top-flight sport machines, it is reasonable to say that the same warning would apply equally to similar machines from other manufacturers. Form Equals Function: Part Two In Part One of this article, we covered a lot of the excuses that new riders give for wanting to start on a 600cc sportbike. This second half finishes off our discussion of this reasoning and discusses why high-powered sport machines are not the ideal beginner machine. False Logic Completed Last month, we covered many of the reasons new riders give to justify why they want or should get a 600cc sportbike. Now we finish with the last and most common excuses given. I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble. This is what I call the "I'm responsible and mature" argument. This one is a general excuse and does not apply to sportbikes in particular. Recent studies have shown that 90% of all drivers feel that they have average to above-driving abilities compared to other drivers on the road. These drivers also said that they think 60% of those on the road are less skilled than they are. It's an interesting perception as it indicates a mentality that everyone else is sub-par, not you. Obviously someone has to be wrong because the percentages just don't add up. A proper attitude towards driving as well as riding is essential. But these same drivers who see themselves as superior also engage in dangerous driving habits (aggressive weaving, illegal passing, bad merges, following too close, lack of attention to traffic/road conditions, etc). Very few drivers are truly honest with themselves and their ability to handle a vehicle. The problem is, on a bike, the perception that you are responsible is not enough. On a bike, you must be. You either learn to be or you are going to be in trouble really quick. In talking with other riders I have found that they tend to be much more defensive and thoughtful drivers behind the wheel because riding raises their perception of their surroundings. Ultimately, responsible and mature does not equate to riding skill. It has nothing to do with it except how you will approach riding in general. You want to know the sign of a responsible rider? Look at their gear. Are they in full safety gear? Watch them ride. If you are seeing them turn their heads to clear their blind spots, making careful and smooth maneuvers, leaving a nice, safe amount space around them and working to maximize your chance of seeing and knowing what they are doing, then you are looking at a responsible rider. Now do the same exercise and watch the drivers around you. How many turn their heads to check their blind spots, signal lane changes, leaving several car lengths of space in front of them, weave in and out of traffic or dash to the end of a ramp and then attempt to force themselves onto the highway rather than yield like they are supposed to? I'm willing to bet it's not going to be a pretty significant percentage. Now imagine these same individuals on a bike. I'm sure you'll be able to spot more than a few of these types on bikes to (just look for the T-shirts and flip-flops as they blast by you at 100mph on the Interstate on the right). How you approach the task of driving is how you will approach riding. Attention to the task of riding is the number one way you avoid trouble by not getting into it in the first place. Study your own driving habits. Good habits will definitely keep your chances of getting into trouble but they have little to do with controlling a motorcycle. Any motorcycle. Many lax drivers often become much better drivers as the result of riding a motorcycle. It is far less common for it to go in the other direction. I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike. Of all the excuses and justifications, this one is my personal favorite. It is in the top three most common excuses given and it shows a complete and utter lack of motorcycle knowledge. It is a statement made out of naivety rather than ignorance. Most of the folks who make this statement own fast cars (Corvette, Mustang, Acura, modified Civic, etc) or think they do. The belief is that if you can drive fast in a car you can handle a bike that can go fast. I would argue unless these folks race cars on weekends, driving a car that can go fast does not make them a experienced high-speed driver. And for those that do understand how to handle a car at high speed, it gives you knowledge of braking and traction but even that knowledge is useless for one simple reason: Bikes are not cars. Braking, traction control, acceleration and handling are totally different on a motorcycle. Cars do not lean. Bikes do. When bikes lean, it changes the part of the tire contacting the ground (the contact patch/ring) and changes the stability and dynamics of the bike from moment to moment. The physics of motorcycle control are in a league of their own. Even the ability to race cars will not give you instant godhood on a motorcycle. Are you aware that a racing motorcycle (any 600cc supersport made today basically) when it is turning is touching the ground with an amount of rubber equal to a couple of postage stamps? The same applies to any street bike at deep lean angles except they don't have the advantage of a smooth surface to hold on to or sticky race tires. Now imagine having to control the power and the amount of traction you are getting in that space. Like being responsible, the ability to handle a car at high speed has nothing to do with handling a fast motorcycle. You are missing two wheels, a cage and a seatbelt on a bike. Turning at 70mph becomes a whole different world on a motorcycle compared to car. Braking is a different experience too. It is fairly hard to stand a car on its front fender if you stomp on the brakes. It can be done with two fingers, a good amount of speed and a moment of panic on a sportbike. The only cars that have brakes equal or better than that of a sportbike built in the last 10 years is a Formula One race car. The skills to handle the potent combination of acceleration, instant-on power and brakes are best learned on a smaller machine so when you finally get on that ultimate sportbike, you have an idea of what to do and how to handle the machine. Driving a car won't give you that. Only time in the saddle, the more, the better. Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I? This is probably the number one reason that pops up. However, it isn't so much a reason as an observation. And it is a true one. Every year, lots of new riders go to their local dealerships or scour their local ads and bring home a brand new or used 600cc sportbike. And many of those riders do successfully manage to get through their learning process on these machines. The purpose of a first ride more than any other is to get the risk of riding for the first year or two as low as possible. You want your margin of forgiveness in the bike to be as wide as possible. A 600cc sportbike gives you very little of that. Yes, a 600cc down low is a tame if sensitive machine. However, it takes very little twist on the throttle to induce a large jump in rpm's. A brief bump on a pothole with a death grip on the throttle can introduce a 4000rpm jump in the blink of an eye (speaking from personal experience). In an experienced rider's hands, this is alarming but recoverable. A gentle rolloff or a little clutch feathering manages the surge nicely. In the hands of a newbie trying to figure out the best reaction to such a scare, a rapid closeoff or a panic brake is often the result and can get you into trouble very, very quickly. Yes, a new rider can start on a 600cc sportbike. It is NOT RECOMMENDED! The reason this line of reasoning pops up so often is because everyone feels they are the exception rather than just another new rider. It makes sense. It's hard to think of oneself as just another face in the crowd. As a rider, I know I am just another average rider. Although I have track aspirations, I have no doubt as to where my skill level is and it is definitely not in (or ever was) in the "start on a 600cc exceptional group". In the end, to deal with this line of reasoning is going to involve the new rider, not the one giving the advice. No one can stop that person from going out and buying a 600cc sportbike as a first ride. And maybe they will succeed and crow about all the bad advice they received on starting small. Great! They were the exception. What you don't hear about are the non-exceptional people. Very, very few new riders who start on 600s come back to talk about their experiences if they aren't in the "I've had no problems." group. On the forums recently, there have been a couple folks who admitted they got 600cc sportbikes to start on and indicated that it had been a less-than-ideal choice. This type of honesty is refreshing and it is very, very rare. I am grateful these riders stepped up. Most of the time, we never learn the fate of those riders who start on 600s. Some make it and simply never bother to tell their tales except to friends. Some wind up scaring themselves so badly (by getting out of control or by actually dumping the bike and injuring themselves) that they sell off and never ride again. These types can be found. Just troll the ads for new supersports with one owner and low miles. The worst of this class of riders are the ones who become "born again safety advocates". These riders who scare themselves out of riding occasionally become preachers that tell anyone who will listen that "motorcycles are dangerous and should be banned". What they don't tell those they are preaching to is how they got that way. It's bad enough having to deal with the general public (who are at least honestly unaware of what riding is about) but a lot worse to be sabotaged from within by someone who did it to themselves and got in over their head. Then there is the last group of these "started on a 600cc sportbike" riders that never tell us their tales. They never do because they can't. Instead, they enjoying peaceful surroundings and occasional visits by bereaved family and friends. They made that one mistake, that one error that compounded into a tragedy of inexperience. They can never tell us what that error was so we can learn from it and maybe also tell us that they should have started on something smaller. They were successful right until the point their skills and luck ran out. This can happen to any of us on any bike. But, in the end, new riders on a powerful sportbike can be a recipe for disaster. Be honest with yourself. Very honest. Take the advice and wisdom of others more experienced than you and consider what they are saying. They may have a point. But if you opt for that 600cc sportbike, be assured you will still be accepted as a rider and still encouraged to act as safely as possible at all times. The Final Equation We've covered the reasons why people justify or want to get a 600cc sportbike. But we have one more thing to answer and it is simple: What makes these bad bikes to start on? Sportbikes are built as racing machines, pure and simple. They are built in response to guidelines laid down by racing bodies for a particular class and made to win races in that class. Ducati, for example, spends most of their existence building bikes to win races. Since 1950, Ducati was always a racing bike manufacturer first and their products reflected that philosophy. A by-product of winning races is the fact that people see those winning machines and want to ride them (if you're going to ride, you might as well ride the best as it goes). It didn't take the motorcycle manufacturers long to figure out that there was a market demand for these machines and reacted accordingly. Sportbikes represent a technological arms race. This has really become apparent in the past 5-10 years where new models eclipse last years models with better performance and capability with each passing year. To compare a 1989 Honda CBR600F Hurricane (the original CBR) to a 2003 CBR600RR is pointless. There is no comparison except in the model designation showing a distant family relation. The new CBR is lighter by at least 50 pounds and packs 30 percent more power, handling and braking ability that makes the original CBR look like a ponderous dinosaur. But just because that original CBR dinosaur has been eclipsed doesn't make it any more tamable. If anything, older sportbikes are far more temperamental than the descendants. Consider the fact that this year a privateer (independent racer) bought a Yamaha YZF-R1 off the showroom floor, took off the lights and mirrors, added a race belly pan, exhaust and tires and placed in the top ten at the AMA Superbike race at Daytona. The bike was two weeks off the floor and basically stock (the modifications with the exception of the pipe are required). Since factory sponsored teams tend to take the top slots, any privateer that can break in the top ten is doing well by anyone's definition. Because sportbikes (and especially 600s since they compete in the most populous racing class out there) are designed first as racing machines, they are built with handling, acceleration and speed in mind. Not just one quality at the expense of others but all of them in abundance! Centralizing the mass of the bike at the center of gravity (CoG) gives the bike neutral stability. The high riding position and the perching of the rider over the CoG gives the bike the ability to flick over rapidly. The steering geometry and short wheelbase of these bikes is designed to provide short and rapid directional changes. Combined with the higher CoG and mass centralization, the steering setup is what gives sportbikes their amazing turning ability. Engine designs vary but have settled on V-twins and inline fours as the preferred choices. The sportbike V-twins are liquid-cooled, high-rpm engines designed to generate massive torque (hence acceleration) and power in the mid-range of their design limits. Witness the success of Nicky Hayden and Miquel Duhamel on the Honda RC51 in AMA Superbike as testament to the massive grunt these engines put out. So potent in fact that the AMA changed the rules for the following season to even the odds between the V-twins and inline fours. The inline four equipped bikes simply couldn't outpower the twins on curvy portions of the race circuit. The inline four is by far the most common engine layout in sportbikes including all 600cc sport designs (the Ducati 620SS has a V-twin but is air-cooled and the bike is not a racing machine). All of the sportbikes that new riders lust after are equipped with this engine design. High-rpm capability (redlines vary between 11K and 16K rpm), liquid cooled and designed to produce peak power at very high rpms. The inline four delivers smooth and increasing power as the throttle is opened. Power tends to build to the peak point, at which power the engine will tend to surge to peak power and fall off as the peak point is crossed. Although nowhere near as bad as a race-tuned two-stroke (which literally double their horsepower as the engine transitions to peak power), the engine displays its roots as a racing thoroughbred. A 1mm or 1/16 of an inch twist of the throttle can easily result in a 2000-4000rpm jump. You can be cruising along at a sedate 4000rpm, hit a pothole and suddenly find the bike surging forward with the front end getting light at 7000rpm. Definitely unnerving the first time you experience it. And then there are the brakes. Braking technology has gotten progressively more potent over the past ten years. Even older sportbikes sport twin disc setups with two or four piston calipers designed to get these bikes down from 150mph to 60mph as quickly as possible. Current generation bikes are unreal. These brakes have grown to six piston calipers with massive discs whose sole job is to slow a 180mph missile down to corner speed in the shortest distance possible. If you ever watch racers, notice that they tend to only use two fingers to brake. They don't need anymore than that. The brakes are almost too powerful. And accidents happen on the track a lot due to bad or late braking. All of these qualities produce an exquisite riding machine. The problem is, all of these qualities are designed to operate at extremes since it is under extreme conditions that these bikes are intended to operate. For the street, these capabilities are overkill. A hard squeeze of the front brake on the street can easily get a sportbike to lock its front wheel. Same applies to an over-aggressive stomp on the rear brake. No matter which way you slice it, highsides hurt. The powerful engine can literally get you from 0 to 45mph in the blink of an eye in first gear. Come up one gear and you can be at 70mph with the slightest drop of your wrist. Add in one bump at speed without knowing what the throttle is going to do and suddenly you aren't at 70mph anymore. You're at 90+ mph and the bike is tickling its "sweet spot". At this speed, you better not panic. If you botch the slowdown from this error (either by a rapid rolloff or a shift), you can find yourself in serious trouble. The handling capabilities of sportbikes actually make them wonderful machines to ride once you are used to thinking where you want to go. This actually gives them great beginner qualities (if on the extreme end). The downside is this perfect handling is slaved to amazing power on tap and the brakes that can back it off just as quickly. In the final equation, a 600cc sportbike is little more than a racing machine with street parts bolted on. They aren't designed for street use; they are adapted to it. But no compromises are made in that transition. The same R6, GSX-R600, ZX-6RR or CBR600RR you can buy off the showroom floor can be converted in an afternoon, be at the track the next day and wind up winning races. And the sportbikes from 10 years ago were the R6s, Gixxers, Ninjas and CBRs of their day. They possessed the same qualities that their modern descendants do just not with the same maximums. Even today on the street, a 15 year old sportbike is little different than its 2003 cousin. The 2003 might accelerate quicker, stop shorter and lean farther but at the speeds us mortals ride at, there will be little difference. Sportbike technology has gone an amazing distance in twenty years. Performance and ability has almost doubled in that time. But rider ability has not and a new rider from 20 years ago would still have the same challenges then as a new rider would today on an R6. Sportbike form evolved to meets its function: to win races. Always has, always will. And riders will lust after these technological marvels for that reason. Can you start out on one? Yes. But you can also pretend to be a GP racer on a smaller sportbike that gives up nothing to its bigger brothers where most of us spend our riding days. It is always more satisfying to smoke a 600cc or 1000cc sportbike in the twisties on a Ninja 250 or GS500 than a bigger bike. But when you are ready to answer the call of the Supersport, they will be waiting for you and you'll be better off having honed your skills on the smaller sportbike. Supersports are not beginner bikes. But they make great second and third bikes. The choice is yours. *DISCLAIMER* I bought a 9S w/o reading this, it probably wouldn't have changed my mind. But I really enjoyed the thought put into it, and it made me think about my decision. | ||
| Swordsman |
As far as reliability issues go, I've put, oh, 15k miles on my '06 Ss so far, and the only real issue I've had was the cooling fan. First one totally crapped out while under warranty, the second one has just developed a rattle in the bearing. Other than that, it's been pretty much nothing but fluid changes and a few tires. If you don't mind the bit of lower rpm stumbling that seems to be a feature of these engines, you're probably good to go. they don't require nearly the amount of Loctite that the manual calls for. The most common issues all seem to relate to rubbed wires shorting out, but that can be addressed before any problems simply by keeping an eye out for them. ~SM | ||
| B00stzx3 |
I'm 22 and I bought the XB9R Firebolt as my first bike. Not the best choice, but I did it. No wrecks in 6 months+ driving, with safety course and a lifetime of knowing how incredibly dumb I can be. To say that the Jap bikes are more dangerous because there topend is kinda untrue though. I like to think that being able to twist your wrist and be at 70mph+ in a few seconds is pretty dangerous to. True, I won't be able to go 140+ which is pretty dangerous anyways. But I can get to 100 faster than I really should and thats scary to. Torque is a hell of a thing! Get a Blast, learn it, drop it, upgrade to a Bolt. Or if you've got a big pair get a Bolt as your first. But I can't recommend doing what I did because at 22 I subcounsiously think I'm invinsible. | ||
| Boney95 |
You're from Wisconsin, get the Buell! | ||
| Chaos_saint |
hah well I know the arguements, and I did read the post that guy copy / pasted I love both sounds from both machines, I did also think the 9s lightning would be good to start on, honestly no offense but I think the bolts are a bit ugly for my taste but love the lightnings industrial look I only posted on here because I recently found a xb9s for sale for $3,999 with free delivery etc for a few more weeks, with only 6,000 miles on it Thanks guys, also Buell parts are hell of cheap. Buell place is only like a 40 min drive for me. I also have the friends that just went out and bought 600's that's why I was seeking others opinions, I'll be back on here seeking further buell advice in this coming month. Also here is a picture of the bike. ~C.S. | ||
| Chaos_saint |
here is the one I'm looking at, not bad just wish it had the black swingarm but those arn't that expensive to replace http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Zalisk/vp103 8597_2_large.jpg | ||
| H2owerker |
I only suggested sitting on a 9R to determine if you found it more comfortable than the S. I just figured that since you seem to prefer the 'tucked' position on the GSXR the Firebolt may be more comfortable than the Lightning. If so get a lightning for the looks you like and when ca$h permits swap the handlebars and foot pegs. You'll have the looks and comfort! | ||
| Thetable |
First things first, thanks to H2owerker for posting that. Seriously any SS bike is a VERY BAD choice for a first bike. I would similarly recommend strongly against starting on an XB because of the handling characteristics. On either of those, you will never get a chance to get comfortable on something that is going to scare you. If you like the Buells, why not pick up a used blast. I see them going locally for somewhere between a song and a dance, which means you can buy it, ride the snot out of it, and still be able to sell it for close to the initial purchase price. Only after riding something smaller could you even begin to appreciate something like an XB or an SS. Another good bike to consider is the Ninja 250. I've just seen way to many people who thought they would get bored with a little bike in short order, only to go with the big bike and either end up a skid mark or sell a 2 month old bike at a huge loss. Hell I have passed too many of them on my old 600 Katana (which is a big slow pig.) Hell, your in WI, you still have at least 2 months to shop before the prices start heading up. And while your at it get signed up for an MSF course. It might save your life, but it definitely WILL shorten your learning curve. | ||
| Moosestang |
I think the xb9 is a great first bike. You just need to be careful in 1st/2nd gear or you could get yourself into trouble fast. You will kill yourself on the gixxer, I know I almost did. I learned to ride on a ninja 250 for all of 4 days and jumped right into a gsxr-750. That bike was to big for me and not nearly as much fun to ride as my xb9. That was 15 years ago though and there wasn't any xb9 back then. | ||
| Brazenbuck |
We don't know you, but hopefully you know (and are honest with) yourself. If reliability is what you're concerned about on a Buell, I wouldn't worry about it so much. Don't buy a bike based on how it looks. Buy the bike you're going to be willing to put the time into learning how to ride. | ||
| Ochoa0042 |
THETABLE - by SS you mean RR...? SuperSport>>RaceReplica I would similarly recommend strongly against starting on an XB because of the handling characteristics I beg to differ there: An XB9 might just be a great starter bike, Im hypothesizing a XB9 has the power of a Ninja650r with better torque! Wouldn't you think so? can anyone find the damn HP rating of a 650r???  I mean damn, I found its 1/4mile time but no HP rating!!! Sad to say but a 250cc should be shot to countries with horrible parking, cobble stoned crowded streets, 30euros/liter, and NutsOnButts action  Sad to say but we have straight left people riding 250 in the dust, meaning we got tired of waiting at the end of each route and gunned right off wait, is this a joke.... your name is kyle davis??? | ||
| Thetable |
THETABLE - by SS you mean RR...? SuperSport>>RaceReplica Yup I beg to differ there: An XB9 might just be a great starter bike, Im hypothesizing a XB9 has the power of a Ninja650r with better torque! More power and more torque does not help one develop better habits. On top of that the same geometry that makes the XB's great handlers, make them less stable, and little rookie mistakes are amplified. Sad to say but a 250cc should be shot to countries with horrible parking, cobble stoned crowded streets, 30euros/liter, and NutsOnButts action Sad to say but we have straight left people riding 250 in the dust, meaning we got tired of waiting at the end of each route and gunned right off Then, number one you were either riding like complete arses and triple digit speeds, or you were running with complete FNGs, in which case, way to represent and bring people in. Oh never mind you're in TX, you see here in other parts of the country, we have curves, that is when the road doesn't go straight, think exit ramp, that is a curve of sorts.  (Tongue in cheek, so don't get bent out of shape on me.) (Message edited by thetable on January 01, 2009) | ||
| Dynasport |
You can wreck any bike, but some bikes are easier to ride/learn on than others. Bikes have gotten crazy fast. 500cc bikes used to be big bikes, now they are often dismissed as being too slow. I have ridden with a guy on a Blast who could ride the crap out of that bike and he had a blast (pun intended) doing it. Personally, though, I think an SV650 is an excellent first bike. Lots of aftermarket parts to make it your own. Decent handling. Decent power. Pretty cheap. Reliable. One thing I will say though, is that I think whatever you buy should speak to your heart. If YOU like it and are proud of it, you will enjoy the experience. If you don't you won't ride as much and may not stay with motorcycles. Owning a motorcycle for me has never been strictly about practicality. It has always been about emotions. The one bike I bought primarily for practicality reasons turned out to be my least favorite by a mile. True, I want to be comfortable on a bike and I want it to be reliable, but most any bike can be modified to be more comfortable and most modern bikes are pretty reliable if properly maintained. So I want a bike that "speaks" to me. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
Thetable He lives in central Texas. We do have curves here, lots of them. They call this area (central texas) hill country for a reason. | ||
| Ochoa0042 |
 yea he's new here, so I'll let it slide this time FIREBOLT - sending the invite to you.. free to join, we have sponsors, lots of fun.. bike nights, fast runs, twisties, and roads you might not know there are a few people from killeen in our group.. look on my profile for other groups (asst organizer, james).. ASR is the ONLY sportbike group in austin, the others are tainted with cruiser oil, but are just as fun Edit: teddy just revamped the looks, its used to look more professional, going to have a talk with him about that .. (Message edited by ochoa0042 on January 01, 2009) | ||
| Bads1 |
Kyle, Welcome to the Badweb. Your choice in a XB9S is a great choice. About the only thing that can be a problem is the 03 belt system which can be updated to the newer style. BTW I live in Racine. Just 20 miles East of you. I have Family in Waterford born and raised. Don't let your friends sway you. I have had all types of bikes over the years but the Buell does just about everything just right for me. | ||
| Chippy |
i would consider a lightning a very good first bike, myself. it's ultra user friendly, fast enough to get most excited, and CAN do just about anything you want it to. those ninja 250's and even the blast (i'm putting my flak jacket on) are, to me, more like mopeds than motorcycles. the rider himself is solely responsible for his/ her own actions, so if he gets into trouble, its his own fault. that being said, be careful when out with your buds with their bikes, as i know firsthand the pace quickens very rapidly and its real easy to get carried away, especially in a group like that. and a bunch of inexperienced riders going way too fast is a recipe for certain disaster. | ||
| 65460 |
Another Waterford guy! I live there too. If you ever see a Red XB12S with bags,that would be me. Ive had Triumphs, Rokons, crotch rockets, Harleys, back to crotch rockets and finally bought my Buell. Its positively the most fun bike Ive ever owned. Trouble free too. Im in my mid 50s, so Im not a young guy anymore, and I ride the bike 39 miles to work, without being uncomfortable. Its a great bike, I dont think you would be dissapointed if you bought one. Just be careful running Marsh Road. | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
I did LOVE the lightning but I find the gsxr more comfortable. Put some crossroads bars and a select seat on the xb9s and you may find a bike that is more comfortable than a gxxr. I certainly think so. The crossroads bars were definitely the best comfort mod I have done. | ||
| Thetable |
those ninja 250's and even the blast (i'm putting my flak jacket on) are, to me, more like mopeds than motorcycles. Ever ridden one? They are not as slow as you might think, and they do get rather short of breath in the top end, but under 70, they are surprisingly adequate. Sure, you have to do a fair amount of shifter work on the 250 to keep it in power, but they are still fun. Here's a nice writeup in the 250 from someone who has experienced bigger bikes: http://www.pashnit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1145 | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
thanks Ochoa0042 ill check that out. I was actually in austin today buying buell t shirts and a hat because my mother in law gave me christmas money and told me I had to spend it on motorcycle related stuff. |
