| Author | Message | ||
     Xbrfirebolt |
I then called the dealership, 25 miles from where I work, and asked if I could have them hook me up to the digital tech and get the latest flash. It won't be for free either!!! I thought this was a warranty issue. I didn't have to pay for mine to be done. ps. I did take mine in with a complaint of a bad flat spot off idle. (Message edited by xbrfirebolt on July 28, 2008) | ||
| Darthane |
As explained elsewhere, they can charge you for the labor (probably 1/2 hour), but they cannot charge you for the 'part'. I plan on making the case that it should have been done before I ever picked the bike up, since it has apparently been available since mid-June and I took delivery June 30th. IMO, they shouldn't charge for it regardless. I just bought the bike from them, the positive press should outweigh the 15m some tech spent with my bike - given the grief they've already given me, though, I think this is unlikely. So unfortunate the small choices people make every day that turn others against them, when doing the right thing causes so little inconvenience. | ||
| Arctic_firebolt |
First of all Darthane, I could not AGREE WITH YOU more! You are exactly correct! My cars do match the stickers. The wife's Kia does about 22 of the posted 25 and my VW Diesel has gotten 50 where the sticker says 49MPG!!! So, I am with you man. Plus or minus 10 or even 15% I can handle but not 35 - 40%. That's B.S.!!! Of course those numbers are at approx. 60MPH. Which I did try on the Buell. Even burning a tank along the coastal highway here with a limit of 45 - 50 the whole way didn't help worth a S%#T. Ok I just got back from the ECM flash. 30 miles each way. My boss, I have to thank for letting me take care of it during working hours. They did let it go as a warranty issue. I simply spoke respectfully and just stated I wanted to be updated as per the digital technician's latest info as per my phone call to them an hour prior. It probably helped that both my sales rep and the sales manager happened to be walking by and said hello. Apparently with sales in a slump they are very aware of who their latest customers are. The Service adviser asked me at first if it was a warranty issue and I simply told him, that sure would be nice since I bought the bike in mid June but that I was also told I would have to pay for the labor. They decided to let it go. After a short visit to the showroom I came back and was told they were WASHING MY BIKE!!! Holy S%&T! I was happy with the flash being done at no charge. I filled up with fuel literally around the corner from the dealership. I had 72.5 on the trip and put 1.8 Gal filling it. Since it was 30 miles back to work and another 42 home, when I get back to work tomorrow I will know the scoop. I can tell you this much already, 80MPH no longer reads 4000 RPM it is now approx. 3700 - 3800. I rarely move that fast but I was pressing the envelope with being AWOL from work almost 2 hours. I received no paperwork and was not given any info. I couldn't even tell you what or if, they did anything other than the tach reading. Maybe, showing up in person to talk with the dealer rather than being one of the many annoying phone calls they get all day is the preferred way to go? Just a suggestion. I will keep you all posted. Currently for all I know it could be worse. | ||
| Darthane |
Maybe, showing up in person to talk with the dealer rather than being one of the many annoying phone calls they get all day is the preferred way to go? Just a suggestion. Oh, I agree. I've been in, personally, to talk to them about this (and other things, since Buell is kindly replacing my Firebolt's headlamps) twice now. I've called about it only once (again, calling first and foremost to check on the status of my headlamps). Twice now I've mentioned that they need to hook the DigiTech up, and both times been given the hem-haw. I've been the height of polite patience both in person and on the phone, despite my growing frustration. I'll be trying again, in person, tomorrow as I've an appointment to get the Firebolt's eyes checked. I'm hoping that I can convince them to take the few minutes and hook up the damned DT should I bring my Uly back the next day. I'm trying to give these guys the benefit of the doubt here and be a good little customer. I purchased some accessories from them and even bought the oil for my 1K there - I've NEVER bought H-D oil before - but I have to say overall I'm just plain irritated. I've heard good things about one of the service techs up at Detroit H-D, if they continue to give me a hard time about a 15m process, I'll be headed there, 40m farther from my house. >.< | ||
| Arctic_firebolt |
I hear you! Try all the dealers. I did but over the phone. My purchasing dealer ended up being the only one in the end who helped. But what flash did I get? Someone here told me that the DT is always up to date. I sure hope so. I took great pleasure today when the woman at HD/Buell Customer Support told me she had 2 addresses, seeming puzzled. She said, Maryland or Florida? I told her I moved to FL. and as you can see this is my FOURTH consecutive HD product. '95 Sportster, '99 FatBoy, '03 NightTrain and '08 Firebolt. Oh yes I see the VIN #'s. I wanted to ask her if she could see the 5th one? Because NEITHER CAN I !!! You have two bikes I see and its beyond frustrating when they don't even pay attention to multiple purchasers. Fix the damn bike! They know it's a fuel management issue just address it already!!! I hate getting the run around. Level with me and I will work with you! Keep on them man. I may have gotten a flash but still may have accomplished nothing. If no improvement then I will begin to write letters and go from there. | ||
| Id073897 |
9 miles is *NOT* too short to fully warm up the bike. I get 1/2 way ready in the summer months(throw my over pants on, and boots.) Go outside start the bike, put my jacket on, plug in my iPhone to my autocom system, and helmet on, which takes approximately 2-3 minutes Best way to kill the engine. The engine is fully warmed up when head temperature reaches about 160 degC. This is not done in two minutes. Below that the engine needs more fuel. This is shown very clearly in the O2 readouts. Getting a scooter might be a dumb statement, but asking for 65 mpg is even dumber. Wrong engine for that. 95 RON fuel has a calorific value of 30-31 MJ/liter. Two thirds of the fuel burnt in an engine will get wasted as heat, one third only (this is the maximum efficency) will be delivered as power to the crankshaft. I leave the calculation to the reader, which power you get from the engine at 65 mgp, but I doubt you will reach even 10 kW. Just get a scooter, as I told you before. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Jedambrose |
"I filled up with fuel literally around the corner from the dealership. I had 72.5 on the trip and put 1.8 Gal filling it. Since it was 30 miles back to work and another 42 home, when I get back to work tomorrow I will know the scoop. I can tell you this much already, 80MPH no longer reads 4000 RPM it is now approx. 3700 - 3800. I rarely move that fast but I was pressing the envelope with being AWOL from work almost 2 hours. " This is the 3rd time I have heard of RPM change after the flash. I even remember one guy saying that he did a trip on the bike ans then his car and it was different. Sound to me like the problem is the odometer/speedo. That would definetly account for the MPG issue. I will do some research and let you know what I find.} | ||
| Werewulf |
im on motorcycle 13 or so and this xb is the first that i couldnt just turn the key on a cold engine and ride.. (it will sputter)...i have the argument, that it does more damage to your motor by idling and polluting the oil, than to drive off in a conservative manner...it will warm up faster than when its idling... i have never lost a motor, or had a major repair on any bike, in over half a million ridden miles...thats my opinion, others will disagree.. (Message edited by werewulf on July 28, 2008) | ||
| Darthane |
Sound to me like the problem is the odometer/speedo. On a ride this past weekend, a buddy on an '06 XB9SX and I filled up at the same time, reset our odos, and then compared mileage when we returned to his place. His bike showed ~118, mine showed ~121. 3mi over the course of 120 isn't enough to account for the MPG gap between the model years. I would be interested, considering many people have noticed a change in their speedo post-flash, in comparing a '08 that hasn't had the update versus one that has. | ||
| Arctic_firebolt |
I too have heard the RPM change and odometer scenario after a flash. Apparently they fix one problem and create others. However, I use three different vehicles to get to work. The VW, the Buell and the Night Train. I will more closely check the mileage across all three but I am sure the difference is negligible. Nice spin on the techno-talk 95 RON but your theory doesn't hold water. I have a 1.9 Liter car that gets 45 - 50 MPG and the vehicle weighs a hell of a lot more than the Buell. The Buell has a 1.2L engine weighs under 500 Lbs and many have testified to 60 MPG and over. Further more we do (R+M)/2 method not RON. A 95 RON is approximately the same as 90 - 91 octane. However, most US gasoline is 87, 89, and 93 Octane. Rarely do we even see 91 in most states. Higher octane = longer burn = more efficient fuel for engines made to utilize it. We can get into the physics of this for months. The bottom line is either false advertising, fuel management issues or none of know how to calculate mpg. Too many people here have proven they have gotten over 60 MPG to say it isn't possible, rules out the false advertising for the previous model years. Way too many people here to suggest none of us know how to calculate the MPG. Leaving the fuel management issue. I for one don't need anyone to suggest a scooter because I am trying to achieve close to a published number but if I did I would be looking for about 75 - 80 MPG have read the scooter specs yourself lately? | ||
| Jedambrose |
"Getting a scooter might be a dumb statement, but asking for 65 mpg is even dumber. Wrong engine for that." Well Gunter I suggest you give Buell a call since they are advertising their bike to get 65MPG. I don't think that we are asking for too much. When you buy something that advertises to get 48/65 and only gets mid to low 30s. That's just BS in my opinion. | ||
| Id073897 |
Nice spin on the techno-talk 95 RON but your theory doesn't hold water. I have a 1.9 Liter car that gets 45 - 50 MPG and the vehicle weighs a hell of a lot more than the Buell. The Buell has a 1.2L engine weighs under 500 Lbs and many have testified to 60 MPG and over. Further more we do (R+M)/2 method not RON. A 95 RON is approximately the same as 90 - 91 octane. However, most US gasoline is 87, 89, and 93 Octane. Rarely do we even see 91 in most states. No need to discuss RONs, as lower RON usually have a slightly higher calorific value, but I'm sure, you knew that already. It's senseless also to compare highly optimized (in regards to efficiency) car engines to that traktor engine running in a Bell ("optimized" for power, if someone dares to name it that way). The question is not IF it's possible to get 60+ mpg from that engine, the question is WHY it should be done. It's simply the wrong engine for running it under such low partial load, because efficiency decreases noticeably under partial load. Usually WOT is the most efficient region (because the engine is layed out for that), so if you want to achieve a good mileage, an engine that delivers exactly the required power at WOT is the engine of choice. As said before: a typical scooter engine. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Cgameprogrammer |
They don't "advertise" 50/65; that's what the EPA measured. And it is impossible to change the RPMs for a given speed through software; you'd have to physically replace the pulleys or swap the rear wheel for one of a different size to change that. It's a fixed ratio for a given gear. So if the speedometer measured 80 mph at 4000 rpm before, your speed would be 75 mph at 3750 rpm. The flash obviously recalibrates the speedometer but does it make it more accurate or even less accurate? Probably less accurate, since that would make people go slower (75 mph when they think it's 80 mph) and make mileage appear higher. But this is just conjecture. | ||
| Thepod |
They may not advertise it, but there it is, in black and white in the specs on the Buell website. May bike websites don't list the MPG. Honestly, I would have still bought the bike if it were listed at a lower MPG. But I thought, I can get the bike I want and have good mileage too. I guess I was wrong. | ||
| Court |
>>>May bike websites don't list the MPG. Can you share a couple of those "many" with me? I am under the impression that if If they don't they are in violation of Federal law. (Message edited by court on July 29, 2008) | ||
| Rainman |
Blast consistently gets in the 60 mpg range in town, EPA says 69. It consistently gets 71 on the freeway, EPA says 73. My buddies XBs all get 45 to 60 mpg, all are 07 or before. There is no reason why the 08 cannot get the same mileage. Not that much has changed in the engine structure that I can tell. If it has, they should immediately revert to the 07. Heck, my 1989 Sportster got 42 in the city and weighed 125 pounds more and had four gears. | ||
| Arctic_firebolt |
"No need to discuss RONs, as lower RON usually have a slightly higher calorific value, but I'm sure, you knew that already." I didn't you brought it up. I thought calorific value had to do with the heating of the fuel not the method of measurement? "It's senseless also to compare highly optimized (in regards to efficiency) car engines to that traktor engine running in a Bell ("optimized" for power, if someone dares to name it that way)." My car is a VW Diesel. More of a tractor engine, if you would, than anything else mentioned here. Furthermore, the question here has always been, why we aren't getting the posted mileage. Octane, RON, MJ/Liter, how many KW are produced or how the engine is laid out is irrelevant to most of us. It's apparent you have done some research on fuel efficiency or perhaps work in the field. Then why don't you help us out instead of just slamming people and the product? "They don't "advertise" 50/65; that's what the EPA measured. And it is impossible to change the RPMs for a given speed through software;......" ??? Oh really? If you print it, put your name under it and PUBLISH IT, you therefore ENDORSED IT! There is no he said/she said in the publication world. You are accountable for what you publish. As for the RPM, I didn't say the actual RPM changed I said the TACH reading changed. I have no idea what the actual RPM's are other than what the instrument panel states. This morning I fueled up just before pulling in to work. I had 114.8 miles on the trip, the light never came on this time, and I filled it as normal to the top of the inner rim careful not to overfill and the bike took 2.549Gal. Did the MPG go up with the flash or is the instrumentation just skewed? As I said I will compare the actual miles driven against my other two vehicles for consistency. When I get home I will compare the quantity of fuel per fill up against the miles driven. I do believe I have put less fuel in today then previous fill-ups for the stated miles on the trip. If the trip shows to be accurate then the MPG went up with the flash. ...and Rainman, I agree with you. Too many others proving they got the MPG to be discredited. | ||
| Arctic_firebolt |
Yes I remember reading your post. However, they didn't cheat enough. The first tank after reflash still only shows approx. 45MPG LOL!  | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
...best mpg I've ever had was 42. still better than my car, but weighing in at 400 or so pounds, should be better! | ||
| Id073897 |
My car is a VW Diesel. More of a tractor engine, if you would, than anything else mentioned here. LOL. I knew it would turn out to be a VW Diesel (TDI, I guess) The VW Diesel engines had ben developed in a country that ran through it's first -so called- "oil crisis" in the early 70s of the last century. These thirty years turned a traktor engine into a very efficient car engine. This is all far away from the Buell engine. Sorry, you Americans might able to reach the moon (I'm sure, it was all fake), but THIS is not your stuff. Look at your car showrooms. Furthermore, the question here has always been, why we aren't getting the posted mileage. Octane, RON, MJ/Liter, how many KW are produced or how the engine is laid out is irrelevant to most of us. And that's exactly the problem. Learn how this all is interconnected and then you're able to differ between truth and marketing babble. You can't get out of an engine, what you don't put in first and you're "losing" at least two thirds of the energy feeded into as heat. It's apparent you have done some research on fuel efficiency or perhaps work in the field. Then why don't you help us out instead of just slamming people and the product? No problem at all. Want good mileage? Go into fifth gear and let the engine idle. This will give you good mileage. It's all a question of power needed. Low power needed, less fuel consumed. But the mpg question is totally irrelevant. The real question is: am I using the right tool for the aim I want to achieve? That answer is "no". For "low power" riding it's definitely the wrong tool. Get a scooter. Mileage about 70-75 mpg. The Buell is a good tool for fun riding, especially because of it's fuel consumption. As said before, average consumption is about 5 l/100 km. Compare that to the other brands, be it Aprilia, KTM, Ducati and who ever. These tend to use about 7-9 l/100 km (33 - 26 mpg), similarly ridden. And I didn't read anything yet, under which conditions the quoted mileage was achived. As this is one of the key points for comparison and rating, the numbers alone don't mean very much. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Cgameprogrammer |
??? Oh really? If you print it, put your name under it and PUBLISH IT, you therefore ENDORSED IT! There is no he said/she said in the publication world. You are accountable for what you publish. They don't publish it; the US government does, and they are required by law not to publish anything else. It does appear that websites aren't required to state the fuel economy at all, since the Japanese motorcycle websites (Honda, Kawasaki, etc.) appear not to state mileage anywhere. | ||
| Arctic_firebolt |
That's right it is a TDI and I am a fan of German Engineering. It's a terrific car. "Learn how this all is interconnected and then you're able to differ between truth and marketing babble. " So, what you are saying is that all of the people on this website with '07 and '06 MPG in the 60's are wrong? I don't know about you but that's better proof than any text answer could ever be. "No problem at all. Want good mileage? Go into fifth gear and let the engine idle" Huh? if I idle in 5th gear will I actually record miles? Under these conditions the bike would only roll a few hundred feet, if that? I love the part about the moon. Actually we've landed on all of the planets in a joint effort with Liechtenstein. Everyone knows that. Cmon! Are you stating that the German rocket technology used to get there wasn't good enough then? "They don't publish it; the US government does, and they are required by law not to publish anything else." Ughhhhh. You might want to check this. The EPA DOES NOT require motorcycle manufacturers to record MPG. "Unlike with cars, federal law doesn't require motorcycle manufacturers to perform fuel-economy tests or, if they do, to reveal their numbers, since bikes make up such a small percentage of overall vehicles and already get such great mileage." http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/highway1/ la-hy-throttle2apr02,0,498246.story So, again who published these numbers on their own free will? It was a pleasure debating the issue with you both. Unfortunately there are too many people proving the MPG on previous year models which completely lays waste to your technical arguments, as good as they read back to yourselves when you write them. And on that note I | ||
| Darthane |
Well, I asked again after I got my Firebolt's eyeballs upgraded (they about gave me a heart attack when they came out after 1.5 hours and asked if my low beam was working on the way over...turns out they didn't know you have to have the kill switch in run... O_o ). I was told they are waiting on some 'card' that contains all the new flashes. Can one of you dealer type people tell me if that's actually how you get flash upgrades for your Digital Techs, or are they just blowing smoke up my ass? | ||
| Arctic_firebolt |
I am going with the smoke theory myself. Too soon to tell on my bike just yet but I am thinking it's all software and it's all fed to them online. While it could be true that our electronics, (ECM itself) sucks and wouldn't be surprised if we see a recall on it. I did notice that the older race ECM was listed as NOT compatible with '08 models. Something is wrong with the DDFI III and we will know more when the '09's hit the street. I doubt very much there will be 2 years in a row of this. (Message edited by arctic_firebolt on July 29, 2008) | ||
| Thepod |
>>>Can you share a couple of those "many" with me? I am under the impression that if If they don't they are in violation of Federal law. Just looked at a bunch of websites. Here's what I came up with in terms of listing MPG in the specs. HD - yes Buell - yes Yamaha - yes Honda - no Kawa - no Suzuki - no Triumph - no Ducati - no BMW - no MV Augusta - no I'm not saying that you can't find out about the MPG, but only a few actually list it in their spec sheet for the bike | ||
| Rainman |
I actually tried to get a copy of motorcycle mpg from the EPA...They said they didn't have it compiled in easy access, that I should contact the manufacturers. Go figure. | ||
| Froggy |
Court: "Even more significant, there isn't an industrywide protocol for motorcycle MPG testing. Unlike with cars, federal law doesn't require motorcycle manufacturers to perform fuel-economy tests or, if they do, to reveal their numbers, since bikes make up such a small percentage of overall vehicles" http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highw ay1/la-hy-throttle2apr02,0,4178645.story | ||
| Court |
It's a bit like crash testing. There are no guidelines for crash testing like there are for cars. Manufacturers pretty well develop their own protocols, keep the info close to the vest and hold it in abeyance for that inevitable "my son was stabbed with a mirror stalk" litigation. It's more a matter of due diligence and prevent defense than content. Buell does not only this kind of testing but some REALLY extreme stuff. This results from Buell having cutting edge technology (the are an industry leader, just check out the mags) in modeling and analysis and they know nuts like us are going to do unimaginable things with these bikes. MPG, I am thinking, has never really been a design constraint. But the Buells have always been known for incredible fuel economy. It may be something to consider optimizing in the air cooled motors in the coming year. Interesting stuff. By the way . . . there are some very cool photos of "crash testing" of the Buell S2 in the book. When HD and Buell teamed up the HD legal folks were agast that Buell was using a plastic fuel cell and insisted on some data to support it's design integrity. Kinda funny stuff and I still recall my horror when told "we're going to do some crash testing this afternoon and we're going to use Marty's Toyota". It get's better. . . . | ||
| Arctic_firebolt |
Hey Jedambrose, I checked the mileage yesterday. The Buell trip measured 40.2 miles and my VW read 40.0 miles. I took the exact same route. The Buell I checked on the way home, the VW on the way in. I can account for the small difference that when I am heading home the hwy ramp is a straight on merge but the way in to work it's a clover leaf coming off the hwy. I will check it again on the way home to be exact. I am betting it is within 1/10 of a mile. | ||
| Froggy |
.2 miles is 1056 feet, which is easily in margin of error. All it takes is for 1 vehicle to take a few turns tight while the other takes them wide. Also need to factor in tire wear, that can knock the count off a hair. |
