| Author | Message | ||
     Snkkpr01 |
Wow, I have just gotten lost reading this thread. I am sorry to all the hard asses on here. Dean I agree with you. Here in OR, right now it about 90 during the day. My boys get waaaay to warm riding on the 12R. I am going to try the heat shield next. I only have 250 miles on the bike, but my ass and berries cook everytime I ride. I am alos going to try the buell custom seat to see if that changes anything. Darin | ||
| Wantxbr |
Snkkpr01 Heat barriers work great. Put one under the airbox also. More padding in the seat means more insulation under your butt, should work well. (Message edited by wantxbr on July 15, 2008) | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Heat protectors: welders have a nifty protector that fits over the back of a glove using a couple of straps. I'm guessing it's about 3 1/2" x 5" with a foil insulator kind of deal. Probably would fit nicely in that space, shiny side down. http://www.steinerindustries.com/new/15A82.jpg Still, would be cool (ha) to put some heat crayon in that area to see what the actual temperature is. | ||
| Straitpipes |
I wrapped my pipes with 3000 degree wrap about 30 inches down on the rear pipe and a foot down the front.the frame still gets piping hot going slow or just idiling but going 30-35 mph or faster is when the wrap really starts to help and doing its job the frame still stays hot,the seat stays pretty good,warm not hot.the rear pipe itself is probably 800-1000 degrees or more.wrap or coating can reduce the temp 20 or more percent.heat loss is power gain and cooler bag for the boys. | ||
| Court |
>>>>I am looking at ways to get the air trapped at the back of the rear cylinder moving out,because without the fan on no air actually moves from this area. I confess I'm curious as well. I'm wondering how you determined this and the Buell engineering group, the one that did all the hot weather testing, missed it. What do you base your "there is no air moving" statement on? Is that results or opinion? Not trying to argue, but there was a TON of research done during development. And I confess I am laughing as I recall the "good ol' days" of the X-1 when part of the initial procedure involved a video camera, a mini-van with the door open and an X-1 with lots of air tufts installed. Court | ||
| New12r |
Yall should go ride a jap bike, they are hotter on the boys than the Buell. | ||
| Damnut |
Wow I just read this thread and I have to say that I am amazed by the rudeness of some of the resident Badwebbers. I find nothing wrong with the questions Dean is asking and he is just asking for help. I don't know what it is about some folks on here that get all pissed when someone questions the way things are engineered on our machines. Guess what OUR BIKES ARE NOT PERFECT. No matter how much you think they are, they are not. There is no one that loves his Buell more than I but Jesus H Christ take the Buell blinders off for a second and lighten up. Lay off the new guy, he is only looking for info. | ||
| Court |
>>>>I find nothing wrong with the questions Dean is asking and he is just asking for help. For the record, I find ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with the questions. Dean has said that "air does not move" and I think he MEANT to say "I think air does not move". There was a TON of engineering that went into insuring air moved through that area and I want to find the basis for his opinion. I am wide open and not making any accusations or conclusions. You may not have been here when I asked the guy "what are you a Rocket Scientist?" to which he replied "Yes, I work for NASA". He was right and provided the data. Dean's statement SEEMS (it's only my opinion) in conflict with what I know to be fact. All I am asking Dean, and I was about as polite as can be, is to explain his basis. I am in the Graduate program at Columbia University and spend a significant amount of my time defending my position on things as they are challenged by classmates. It's the basis of intelligent conversation. I asking Dean to discuss this not accusing anyone of anything. By the way . . . the NASA Engineer now works for Buell.  | ||
| Prof_stack |
Hey, the Guzzi I test rode today was doing a right fine job heating my left and right kneecaps. Might be good for arthritis.  | ||
| Damnut |
Court there was nothing wrong with what you wrote but there was some that just attacked the poor guy. I'm not saying that anything he is stating is valid, I'm just saying there is no need to be rude to him. | ||
| M1combat |
OK sorry... I was being an •••••••... Dean... There are a few solutions to heat buildup. Moving the fan is not one of them. Air flows fine through the tail section of the bike when the fan isn't spinning. The air will not exhaust at the tail light location. The solutions are to... Wrap the headers. Apply a thermal barrier under the lower airbox cover (the pan). Apply thermally reflective material to the inner side (not the "inside") of the frame (must be very thin and can't be "cheap" as the adhesive needs to work well). Get a right side airscoop. Use ECMSpy to richen the mixture (that one doesn't help heat THAT much). Use Mobil-1 or Amsoil. Let the bike break in (about 5K miles at least... they run cooler the more miles you have on them). Do all of these things (or at least most) and I'm sure you'll be happier about the temperatures you're forced to endure. The suggestions with the most effect are the heat barriers, wrapping the headers and installing a larger right side scoop. | ||
| M1combat |
For the record... I live in AZ and I've ridden the bike in 110-115F heat in stop and go traffic... The bike doesn't like it at all, and yes... the heat on the right thigh is damn near unbearable in that situation. That said... I wouldn't think it needs to be re-engineered at all. How often does that happen? | ||
| Treadmarks |
Apply a thermal barrier under the lower airbox cover (the pan). Apply thermally reflective material to the inner side (not the "inside") of the frame (must be very thin and can't be "cheap" as the adhesive needs to work well). Get a right side airscoop. Use ECMSpy to richen the mixture (that one doesn't help heat THAT much). Use Mobil-1 or Amsoil. Let the bike break in (about 5K miles at least... they run cooler the more miles you have on them). I have done all this and a few other tricks (oil cooler fans and ceramic coated micron). Heat is no longer an issue here in hell hot Miami Traffic. Get a temp oil temp dipstick from EG and monitor your cooling efforts, see the results. Your oil can be cooled before it enters the engine internals, and prove to be a good cooling agent. | ||
| Deanbush |
Thanks for all of the info. I just ordered some REVERSIBLE TEMPERATURE LABELS FROM 86 degrees F to 248 degrees F. I will install these in several key area's,and will monitor temp readings. I installed 1 1.25" NACA on the left side of the motorcycle right in between the top of the oil cooler and air scoop. I have it duct coming in just under were the tie bar bolts to the frame extending up over the starter and wiring harness, not very pretty. I then used a small shop vac to blow air thru the duct the fan never turned but I could feel air exiting the lower right side of the fan. Next while riding down highway and around town I compared with my bare hand how much hot air was coming out of the low pressure side vents just under the seat and there was considerably more hot air exiting the right side vent and more at highway speeds. For your info I have a Vista Cruise thumb lock throttle lock. Also I had another thought most car engine intakes twist he incoming air for better circulation and air/fuel mixture, also planes have vortex creation devices on the wings to keep air on the wing surface. I think if you could induce a twist in the incoming air from the side scoops this twisting air actually would make better surface contact with the cylinder walls and cooling fins. Just another thought maybe it will be "NEW". After installing the heat labels I will conduct several test, one will include running the fan on manual control and I will measure current draw of the fan motor. and make notes of all the different temp readings. | ||
| M1combat |
Why don't you just perform the simple steps I mentioned above? If it's still too hot then take it further? A lot of people have already experienced... | ||
| Iamarchangel |
See, science is fun. You need numbers for science and engineering. You need words for history. The real trick is being able to turn words into numbers and back again. If you master that, you're a scientist, if not, you're a politician. Ha. | ||
| Snkkpr01 |
Iamarchangel, I am a welder/fabricator by day..LOL I actually have a couple of those heat shields in my tool box. Never thought to stuff it under the seat. I will be doing the header wraps ( it looks bad ass ) and the heat shield under the air box and seat. Which is the best size wrap to use on the 12R. There are so many different styles out there. I do know I want black though. Dean, I am very interested to hear what you find out. I am going another route. We have wax pencils that melt at different temps and I am going to see if I can get the ones that are around cylinder temps and use them for a day or so. If I can I will post my findings. Court, what should the cylinder temps be? Big range is ok, the pencils go from 100 to 1000 degrees. I just need to start with ones that are close. Thank you Darin | ||
| Fmaxwell |
I put some foam insulating tape under the seat. It had an aluminum face to reflect heat. It made a significant difference to the seat temperature. But, aerodynamics is really not a seat of the pants kind of science (sorry for the pun). What looks like a really good idea can turn out to be just the opposite when one takes measurements or puts it into a wind tunnel. I also had the headers done in Jet Hot, and that, too, was an improvement. That said, the average Gold Wing rider would throw a hissy fit if asked to ride my bike for a few miles in the summer. All of that said, I think that Buell, as a company, does a great job of cooling engines and cooking riders. I believe that the air exhausts onto our inner thighs because not enough thought was given to where to duct it once it was pulled away from the engine. That some of it goes down beside the rear shock seems more by happenstance than intent. I do wonder what would happen if someone louvered the underside of the plastic tray under the seat. Not that I'm volunteering my bike for that experiment, but it's something I'd be curious about. | ||
| M1combat |
Right FMaxwell... Not enough thought was put into it... So you figure it's just "happenstance" that the extractors on the side of the bike are in the crook of the leg that creates a low pressure zone to help extract air? You figure it's just happenstance that the front and rear cylinders run at relatively close temperatures even when one is in the air and the other is barely visible from nearly any angle? You figure it's happenstance that the XB's don't cook oil in the rear head like Sporty's do? A bike that's been around since what? 1967? You figure it's happenstance that the fan exhausts hot air DIRECTLY to a low pressure zone above the rear tire at any more than about 30MPH? Other companies take steps to take perfectly good, as of yet undisturbed air and direct it to that location. They cut off their nose to spite their face and Buell does it elegantly in perfect Buell fashion of using one thing to serve the purpose of two and they didn't put much thought into it? I don't mean to be a punk or anything but really... Not a lot of thought has gone into cooling a 103HP, air cooled, 1200cc engine that can run all day long at 100F ambient and not have to run too rich for emissions in stock form WITHOUT a CATTALYZER (SP)? Come on man... They did all that WITHOUT using header wrap or adhesive and/or fastened heat barriers. I would venture to say they don't use the barriers because they aren't 100K mile reliable. Well that and it's the EASY way out that DOESN'T require thought but it adds weight so what does Buell do? They think about it. So there are improvements that can be made... Thank you Buell for doing it without all that unreliable crap that adds weight . | ||
| Bigredwood |
I wanted to thank Dean for what he has done. We as Buell riders and enthusiasts want one thing. Our passions for our bikes to be rewarded with better new models. An evolution of a bike we love to a bike we would like to buy. As we all know, Buell probably looks at BadWeb for suggestions and gauges what the buying public wants. It may also serve as a venue for new ideas and solutions to the problems. With this understanding . . . Thanks Dean for not only addressing a prominent problem but doing one better. Thinking outside the BOX! | ||
| Bigredwood |
M1combat- Raining on parade will begin . . . now. Not enough thought was put into it  I will now step to my Soap Box. If you don't want to think outside the box, SKIP THIS POST! After reading many of your posts M1Combat, I have begun to respect your knowledge of Buells. But come on . . . Buell has made several Not enough thought was put into it situations for itself. The first was the Road Warrior. His first 'Buell' bike the RW750 was built for a class that was eliminated. The RW750 began production in 1984 to race in the Formula One Series. Only to have the class desolve by the start of the 1986 season. The Not enough thought was put into it was foretold in 1984 by Yamaha's decision to no longer make the TZ's and Honda's idea to make the NR over 30K in price. Erik Buell quit his job at Harley and put all he had into a bike that was only allowed to race in one season! My favorite is Harley's attempt at Racing Gold in 2000. With several nods from Erik Buell the VR1000 was to be HD's big chance at the Superbike class. After getting smacked by Miguel Duhamel's RC51, It was very apparent . . . Not enough thought was put into it. There were two major conflicts that limited the VR1000's performance. Both were evident on the exhaust configurations of the bike. First the tips of the silencers after Brainerd AMA national, were differently colored. Due to each pipe having its own cylinder, one cylinder was running at an incorrect Fuel/air mixture. Second and most notable was the position of the exhaust tips/silencers. They pointed at a 45 degree angle compared to the rear of the bike. Well under wind tunnel tests, it was determined that the VR1000 was similiar in aerodynamics to its potential competitors. But after the races was it brought to attention that the exhaust was destroying the actual aerodynamics of the bike. A second tunnel test was done with the bike's motor spinning at race conditions. By expelling exhaust gases at a 45 degree angle, the teardrop aerodynamis were actually lenghtened to a double teardrop shape. Not only making the bike slower, but allowing it to be 'super-draftable.' These can be considered knocks against the Buell's reputation. But in the grand scheme of engineering, I believe them to be building blocks. Thanks to the upsetting loss of the RW750, Buell only makes bikes that will have a definite market. (thus no dirtbike due to AMA's future cylinder/displacement restrictions) All the amazing things that Erik Buell has put into the XB lineup and the new 1125R only display his Out-of-the-Box ideas. How many test frame were made for the XB's? How many swingarms? How many configurations were there for the XB's? (God it would be fun being involved in R&D for Buell!!!!) Would any of the simple things make it past production into the bikes on the street? Once again Dean and other Buellers alike . . . Thank You for questioning the engineering and refinement of your bike. For if we were all satisfied . . . there would be no 1125R. Or a section in your profile to ask what Buell should improve on. Dislike me and my posts, but it still stands. Even Buell can make a better bike. Maybe one that doesn't toast you three-piece set.  | ||
| 147db |
Buell probably looks at BadWeb for suggestions Hahaha, I don't think so...  | ||
| Xbswede |
Snkkpr01 - I put the sport seat on mine and it also helped. It's firmer and taller and helps keep your rear up away from the heat better. | ||
| Glitch |
Buell probably looks at BadWeb for suggestions A good laugh more likely  | ||
| Court |
>>>Buell probably looks at BadWeb for suggestions Good question to ask someone who has logged on to Badweb from their HD/Buell machine . . . NO-NO. | ||
| Buelldualsport |
Court: We still use yarn and a video camera at Talladega and Daytona to verify areo flow over the nose and tail of the race car. However, the video is self contained and mounted in the car with lipstick style cameras pointed to the front and to the rear. Heck, a drop of oil on the nose at 200 mph will also tell where the air is going. YRMV Buells to Alaska ALCAN 5000 2010 | ||
| Lost_in_ohio |
I wish my 06 SS would get 63mpg at 80mph. My crotch gets hot riding it too, kinda enjoy it. | ||
| Deanbush |
I have ceramic coated headers,run syn 3 oil both engine and primary,radiant heat shields under air box intake,around rear and sides of airbox cover,and under the front section of the seat,rt side air scoop,a home made oil catch can for rerouted breather hoses,Magura hyd clutch assembly,a Nissan front brake masterclyinder/lever assembly off of a CBR954RR,handcut my cheesegrater rearend,installed a time delay circuit so low beam does not come on until 15sec after starting up motorcycle,opened up air filter cover,and installed flush mounted turn signals,and painted my dull orange plastic body panels a Brilliant Metalflake Green. SO I think I have the simple things. | ||
| Bads1 |
I get a kick out of this thread. LMAO!!!! BTW go ride Miguel's liquid cooled RC51 and see how fast it cooks your 3 piece set. Under seat exhaust and side radiators get hot.....real hot. But Hey Honda engineered that bike and it won championships and made alot of Honda enthusiasts happy. But what do they know right?? | ||
| Mr2shim |
I'm curious to know why you have a headlight delay. Never heard of that before. |
