| Author | Message | ||
     Bcool83 |
It's quite possible that I just don't have the technique or enough riding ability to properly pilot my 03 XB9S on the track, as I've only done two track days thusfar (Talladega and Barber). But at both days (most noticably at Barber, as that was my 2nd day and I was really trying on the straights), it seems I can barely do anything on the straights. There were a ton of throttle jockeys in the novice group, who'd park it in the corners. I'm not entirely confident enough to pass in the corners yet, so I hung back a tad, then carried more corner speed than those in front of me (so as to be on their rear tire past the apex), but as I rolled on more throttle coming out of the corner, they ("they" being on any type of supersport bike) would just pull away about half the time. The other half I'd stay on their rear tire...but only a handful of times could I actually pass anyone. Am I just too inexperienced still? Not carrying enough corner speed, and (eventually) needing to pass in the corners? The only mods to my bike are the Race Kit, breather mod, removed inner airbox cover, and what I think is the lowered rear shock. | ||
| Bcool83 |
I guess my ultimate purpose here is, I'd like to keep my Buell for a while as I enjoy every other aspect of it... And while I don't need to go passing everyone on the track, I'm sure I've become addicted to TDs, and once I start doing them with more people, I'd like to keep the ball busting about my "slow" bike to a minimum :P | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
........sorry. it's a common complaint about buells. they're lacking in the horsepower department, so on the straights you'll be left behind. But as you mentioned, you'll be able to carry more corner speed as your skill increases. | ||
| Bcool83 |
Sheet, that was what I was afraid of. I don't really want to tear into the motor either... How much different are the 12s than the 9s on the track? I can't recall the HP difference offhand, but is it great enough to make a difference? | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Races are usually a matter of seconds. That hanging back a tad is costing you. You can probably brake later and harder, and hit the throttle sooner. That would be your first exercise. The second is work on different lines. It's too early for block passing techniques but if the rider in front goes in tight and comes out wide, can you do the opposite? It may set you up better for the next corner. Explore different lines. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
I did my first track day at Blackhawk Farms and was in the novice group (no passing in the am, only in the straights in the pm). In both instances, if I was too close on someone in the corners, I pulled into pit lane for a brief stop and go (about 15-25 seconds). This put my in my own little space on the track where I could improve my skills and not worry about being jammed up by those that "parked it" in the corners. In the pm sessions, I began learning the fine skills of outbraking other riders coming into the corner. WAY scary at first, but it became fun! | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
the xb12's make 103 at the crank according to buell, but that's still not much compared to other sportbikes. if you want to be really competitive, without having to do major engine mods, you'll need to move away from the xb line and hit up the 1125r. But to me, the 1125r is just another sportbike, doesn't have the same character as an xb, but it reigns supreme in performance. | ||
| Spike |
The lack of horsepower in the straights can definitely cause a problem, but it's something you can overcome with experience. It actually tends to be a bigger problem in the novice/beginner classes where most guys drop anchor when they see a corner, then become heros once they hit the straight. Since most organizations don't allow passing in the corners at that level, passing becomes an art if you don't show up with more motor. You'll have to plan your passes ahead of time, sometimes even hanging back a bit so you can really build up some corner speed and let it carry you past the other guy on the straight. Exit speed is everything. With that said, at this point you should probably ignore what the other guys on the track are doing. The forgiving power delivery of an XB is a *great* learning tool at the track, allowing you to focus less on working the throttle and more on actually riding the bike. If you switch to another bike for more peak power you'll be able to pass more people on the straight, but you'll likely get caught up in that style of riding and not learn as much as you would have on a "slower" bike. | ||
| Reepicheep |
On the back straight at Mid Ohio, a 12 would walk away from a 9 at a pace about the same as a *slow* walk. It was something, but not nearly as much as I expected. Then the 1125's would *scream* by. When I was stuck behind somebody (I am in the novice class), I would just work on form or experiment with different lines, and try and pass on the straights by carrying more exit speed. When somebody was stuck behind me, I moved over on the straights and waved them by. A few sessions were slower then I wanted (novice has a *huge* range of speeds) early in the day, but by the end of the day I was running pretty much as fast as I was comfortable. The slower riders are getting tired faster, and will filter away as the day goes on. I was just patient. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I have the exact same bike: 1) I try to stick with tracks with short straights 2) The 12 will accelerate better, but the engine is less suited to track riding 3) A cool rider will let you go in the straight after you clearly go faster in the turns, many are not cool and will make you miserable if you let them. Like Paint Shaker said, pull into the starting lane and wait for a free line 4) When passing it sounds like you have it right- give them a lead before the turn and build momentum through the turn so you can pull them coming out. You can also late brake and stuff them, which I was doing too much. It's better to just get a suitable bike for the track than ride like that and risk everyone's safety. 5) Opinion: Get a track bike if you get serious, because the XB will never be as good as a repli-racer on the track and you'll take a lot of chances trying to overcome the power deficit OR stick with tracks with short staights and frustrate the hell out of the guys with literbikes. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Reep is correct about the novice class, it is a nightmare. The intermediate class will be much more predicable and flow better. The riders will have more awareness and courtesy. Earn your way to the next class by being smooth and patient, and you'll be much happier there. | ||
| Glitch |
Bill, you don't need a faster bike (yet) What I would suggest is schooling. Ed Bargy come to mind. http://www.edbargyracingschool.com Shred (Mike) is racing in Ultra Light Weight Twins on a Ducati 750 that puts down about 70ish HP, and he was the Champion last season. Don't sweat being the fastest at track days, it's not a race. I'm sure they told you this at the track. Earn your way to the next class by being smooth and patient, and you'll be much happier there. That is excellent advise! You'll need to learn first, the bike you have now is excellent for that. William (Mountainrider) bought a CityX a couple of years ago with the intention of quietening some of the loud mouthed Sportbike riders. He did an excellent job. It's not the arrow, it's the Indian. | ||
| New12r |
Am I just too inexperienced still? Not carrying enough corner speed, and (eventually) needing to pass in the corners? Yes. Follow me at Barber, I was turning 48's on the Uly and 42's on the 1125. Seat time, seat time seat time. You need to follow me and Shred around a local loop or two. That should build your confidence some. | ||
| Benm2 |
Chiming in to agree with Reep & Spatten1: move up to the intermediate group. There aren't as many throttle heros there. The 9 is fine as a trackbike; a dedicated track bike is a nice luxury though. I've ridden intermediate group for a few years now, and its rare to get stuck behind a throttle hero. It still happens, but at worst I'll pit it & go back out. Usually if I get passed on the straights the pass is permanent. If you really want to have the ability to run at the front of the groups, you'll need to upgrade the bike AND the rider. Personally, its more fun with an upgraded rider... | ||
| Bcool83 |
Races are usually a matter of seconds. That hanging back a tad is costing you. You can probably brake later and harder, and hit the throttle sooner. That would be your first exercise. The second is work on different lines. It's too early for block passing techniques but if the rider in front goes in tight and comes out wide, can you do the opposite? It may set you up better for the next corner. Explore different lines.Hanging back a tad is necessary for me at this point. I don't mean 10 feet back, just a couple feet off his rear tire - enough that I have a small cushion in case Mr. I-Park-It-In-The-Corners decides to freak out around that hairpin and lowside in front of me. I guess my main problem with the lines would be that 1) I don't have the skill yet for block passing (if I understand it correctly), and 2) I don't think Novice groups allow that. Passing on the outside only in corners, and anywhere safely on the straights. I guess my main "problem" is needing to work on late braking more. Don't sweat being the fastest at track days, it's not a race. I'm sure they told you this at the track. I know Dave, I know. And at my first track day, I was all about putting along in the straights and just working on the corners. I guess Barber just "felt" a lot better to me, and I had more confidence. That, combined with the vast amount of retards who were WOT on the straights down to 20 mph by the turn-in point just frustrated the crap out of me. I forget that I can pit-in too, I really need to utilize that more. Follow me at Barber... You need to follow me and Shred around a local loop or two. That should build your confidence some. I'm deathly afraid of following you on any kind of spirited street (and probably track) ride :P Next time yall go out, give me a holler... Thanks for the input everyone. Like I said earlier, I just got a bit frustrated by the seemingly-stupid riding styles of many in the novice group. I guess that's probably a big part of it. I'll keep trying on the Buell for a while, and stop trying to wring it entirely out on the straights keeping up. | ||
| Bcool83 |
Oh, and PS - I now see the value of "aggressive" bars (Crossroads, Carmichael, etc). Just another thing to buy!  } Chiming in to agree with Reep & Spatten1: move up to the intermediate group. There aren't as many throttle heros there. If and when I ride either track again, I might do that. I was thinking about it at Barber honestly, but by early afternoon half the people were gone anyway. | ||
| Jlnance |
1) I don't have the skill yet for block passing I'm certainly not a track day expert, but I suspect that trying to make up for skill by adding horsepower is just asking for problems. If you want to race, you're probably going to need more bike than an XB9. But there is a lot to learn before you get to that level. | ||
| Glitch |
If you want to race, you're probably going to need more bike than an XB9. Depends on the class. The XB9's power is on par with Ultra Light Weight Twins in WERA. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
bcool, you're having issues "handling down the straights" as it was known as at the local stock car track when I was involved there/ occasionally raced several years ago. Sounds better than saying slow on the straights. (Message edited by badlionsfan on July 15, 2008) | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I'm 4th in the points standings in my region in Thunderbike and I'm on a pretty much stock 9. With the 9, you MUST carry more corner speed. I've past people on the straight at Road America, which the straight is very long and up hill. The secret? A better drive out of the last turn. If you don't pass them in the turn, or get a better drive out of the turn, you're beating a dead horse. That's why I'm finishing this season on a borrowed engine (thanks James Gang Racing) as I tweaked my engine at R.A, and am purchasing a new 12 engine for next season. Stick with it. Not to sound like a dick, but I bet the bike has more to offer than you're taking from it. With time comes the speed. | ||
| New12r |
Not to sound like a dick, but I bet the bike has more to offer than you're taking from it. With time comes the speed. Dick....LOL He is right though. I have been asked how to make bikes faster alot, I just say buy leather and make yourself faster, the bike has plenty to offer. | ||
| M1combat |
I agree with most here... The bikes are capable . If you're on a track with LONG straights and no real technical section to speak of and no sections where there are a few sweepers you probably won't do so well on the XB (either one of them really). As soon as you get to a track where there are corners though you should be able to keep up with bikes that have much more HP. The key to going fast on track with other riders of various ability is to time your pass so that they don't affect you at all. It's a skill (Art really...) that comes with learning the lines. There are more than one. The worst thing you can do with a bike that has less power is try to power around someone coming out of a turn. You need to focus on exit speed, but not so you can exit a corner faster than someone... It's so you can get to the next one faster . Exit speed isn't about throttle so much as about mid-corner speed. Mid corner speed relies on proper braking points and proper turn in point, along with using max lean angle. I guess the main thing is that you probably shouldn't worry about anyone else... If you do you'll just get fed up with a "bike that's not fast enough" and go get something else, only to find that it's ONLY faster on the straights . The XB is faster than most in the turns, and most racetracks have more turns than straights . | ||
| Slaughter |
I'm going to add a voice to saying that the frustration with SLOWER riders on FASTER bikes is a common thing. The riders who can't turn and then wick it up on the straights aren't learning a thing. "Dialing" up more speed doesn't teach a rider anything except to use their right wrist. (no comments about their OTHER uses for their right wrist on a Family BBS) For track days, it's BETTER to get separation from riders like that so you can develop your own rhythm and timing. Following a rider who CAN'T ride will be worse for you than following a GOOD rider or riding by yourself and paying attention to what your bike and the track are telling you. Find a coach to work with you too. Most of the track coaches I've found LOVE to have questions asked of them - trust me, they're NOT making any real money... they're doing it for the love of the sport - most are barely breaking even. | ||
| Mr_gto |
Bcool, are you signed up to do Nashville on Aug. 2nd? Its going to be at night, 4pm-12am. I have been to Tally and i loved it. It is a great track for the Buell. | ||
| Mr_gto |
My 2ct. Setting up you suspension on the XB is a big part of helping you ride better. I am a big rider (235). I have done alot of suspension work to my bike. I can see big differences every time i change something for the better ie, new front springs, increased fork oil level, stiffer rear spring. I would love to get my hands on a Penske rear shock and put gold valves in the forks, just cant afford it yet. I have seen great improvements to my lap times with just suspension tweaks. I have a pretty much stock bike and have no problem hanging with much faster bikes on the track. Just ride smooth and speed will come. Its kinda fun getting passed by a liter bike and then passing them back as you come into the next corner because you can out brake them and carry more corner speed! | ||
| Bcool83 |
I'm going to add a voice to saying that the frustration with SLOWER riders on FASTER bikes is a common thing. The riders who can't turn and then wick it up on the straights aren't learning a thing. "Dialing" up more speed doesn't teach a rider anything except to use their right wrist. (no comments about their OTHER uses for their right wrist on a Family BBS) For track days, it's BETTER to get separation from riders like that so you can develop your own rhythm and timing. Following a rider who CAN'T ride will be worse for you than following a GOOD rider or riding by yourself and paying attention to what your bike and the track are telling you. Find a coach to work with you too. Most of the track coaches I've found LOVE to have questions asked of them - trust me, they're NOT making any real money... they're doing it for the love of the sport - most are barely breaking even.That's exactly it I think. I'll stick with the XB for now, and just realize my frustration is more with the other riders than with my bike. I know I certainly have lots more to learn, and can carry much more corner speed than I do...it's just a matter of getting myself to do it. Thanks for the words of wisdom everyone! | ||
| Slaughter |
Realize also that Twin-class bikes and mid-displacement twins like the SV and Ducks are ALWAYS going to be out-pulled by the generic late model inline fours. Just the nature of the beast. Like was suggested above - Just pull into the hot pit, slow down and let the putz get 20 seconds on you and then pull back out again and ride YOUR ride. Think of making the bike QUICKER - not FASTER. (WE feel your pain.) | ||
| Slaughter |
Another question: which track day operator are you running with? Make sure they offer EXPERIENCED on-track instruction (no really cheapie track day operator has enough instruction) Work with the instructors - ask specific questions about lines, turning points, braking points, body position and shifting. You'll be surprised at how few track day riders even ask ANY questions of the instructors - they just expect to somehow absorb knowledge just by being on the track. | ||
| Vtbueller |
Before spending more money I usually ask myself: "What would Miguel Duhamel do on my bike?" Then I save my $$$$ and keep practicing. The one exception is suspension work. That will bring you confidence. If you follow racing you will now that the top amateurs are not far from the pros. At the last www.cdnsuperbike.com event in Calgary which is known for it's loooooong straight the top Buell rider in Cnd Thunder and the top amateur on a 600 had almost identical times. 1:21... I know there is quite a difference between racing and track days, but you should have no doubt that your XB9 has more potential. 3 123 Dave Estok New Smyrna Beach, FL 13 1:21.258 12 +2.062 Buell Canadian Thunder } 1 14 Jodi Christie Keene, ON 12 1:21.980 7 -Yamaha YZF-R6 | ||
| Swordsman |
Heh, guess this is the reason repli-racers are called repli-RACERS, and XB's are called streetfighters. ~SM |
