| Author | Message | ||
     Xb9 |
The last set of numbers on the VIN is the build number. I also recall hearing that the first 400 XB9R's were not shipped initially because after they were built, they had to have the engines pulled for some type of repair, don't really know if that is fact or rumor (hearsay). Funny, Buell replaced my front wheel under warranty, but I also had a very good, customer service oriented HD Area Service Manager involved. HE was very good at listening to my assessment of the problem, which the dealer supposedly verified after I took it to them. But I did all the diagnostic measurement work up front before ever getting a Dealer involved. | ||
| S320002 |
Xb9, Your post about added bushing/pin clearance got me thinking again (always a dangerous thing). It is possible because the mounting is on the outside that heat expansion of the rotor could warp the rotor or wheel or both. I would however be extremely surprised if Buell hasn't spent massive amounts of computer FEA time analyzing the thermodynamics of the wheel/rotor assembly. Greg} | ||
| Spiderman |
Dave is the regular Buell Tech, We are working on trying to locate the problem. BUT Buell does not cover rims under warrenty unless of another tech issue which we are looking for on Darth's bike. | ||
| Blake |
Spiderman, AHHHH I see you have worked at a dealer before. NO Blake H-D nor Buell cover wheels under warranty... I guess the guys who suffered the spun bearings in their wheels and had them replaced for free under warranty were just lucky? The company goofed? Modesto has warrantied quite a number of such wheels. Better reread your warranty documentation... or are you just taking the word of one of your associates? Also see XB9's post above. His wheel was also warrantied. How could you think for one second that it would be reasonable for Buell to not warranty a defective wheel? Does that make ANY sense to you? I don't even think it's legal. When you purchase something new and it is defective, by law the seller must refund or repair it. edited by blake on June 20, 2003 | ||
| Xb9 |
S32002: Your thinking along the same line I am. If the rotor gets hot enough and there is insufficient clearance at the bushings, something has to give. over time and with this stress, I could see a possibility that the wheel could become distorted from the expansion of the rotor. The other probable cause of wheel distortion as I see it could be the stress from road defects. God knows we have enough of that in the Northern states. Something caused Buell to change the rotor/bushing clearance after the initial release of the XB9R; they did not do it for the hell of it. And I know for a fact there was a change, as I acquired that information from a factory Buell Engineer. (Name withheld to protect the innocent, kind, honest gentleman that revealed this to me) As large as the rotor is, dimensionally it has to grow a great deal when it gets hot! BTW, my original rotor was damn near perfect after 12,000 miles. My problem was caused by the distortion in the wheel. I've got my fingers crossed that the new wheel assembly with the greater rotor/bushing clearance is the fix. Time will tell. I've got about 6k on the new wheel assy. now. | ||
| Dynarider |
When you purchase something new and it is defective, by law the seller must refund or repair it. Not always so cut & dried. Just because you or myself or anyone else may think a company is legally liable to fix & or repair a defective item does not mean they will do so willingly. I believe the wheels replaced under warranty were because the known bad bearings tore up the inner race, no choice but to replace them. As far as a full floating rotor getting hot enough to induce enough heat thru the mounting bushings to warp a rim. On a conventional setup no way in hell but on an XB Im not sure. I have had the rotors on my X1 practically glowing & yet the I was able to grab the carrier without burning my hand. Obviously the XB has a different mounting system, but the rotor is still isolated from the rim, but it lacks the full carrier of earlier models. Would be nice to take an XB & really hammer the brakes repeatedly & then measure the heat differential between the rotor & the mounting blocks & rim. I have access to an infared heat gun but dont know anyone around here with an XB. | ||
| S320002 |
Dyna, "As far as a full floating rotor getting hot enough to induce enough heat thru the mounting bushings to warp a rim." Who said anything about heat warping the rim?? That much heat would have the tire smoking. It seems you have an inclination to try to put your words into other peoples mouths. Greg | ||
| Blake |
Greg, Greg just confused the effects of thermal expansion with overheating. Calm? Sheesh. Greg, My impression was that the wheel hubs had the problem, not the bearings. The bearing seats where too large, out of tolerance. But no matter, the wheels were replaced under warranty, right? Therefore, the wheels were covered by the Buell warranty, right? That was the point, right? I'll not be arguing the point any further. | ||
| S320002 |
Blake, I'm perfectly calm. I just wanted to make sure such a silly statement wasn't attributed to me. Greg | ||
| Dynarider |
Touchy touchy, I didnt put words or attribute anything to anyone. I read it the first time & OBVIOUSLY I read it wrong. I was mistaken when I thought you were talking about heat transfer. But no matter, because unless a rotor was machined with such tight clearances that it basically had to be hammered on the carrier or onto its mounting pins, I doubt it would grow enough to warp a rim. I dont know what the rate of growth is for the XB rotor but I wouldnt think it would be more than .003-.005. The dies we use at work normally will expand .002-.003 between the mounting faces once heated to 500 degs. | ||
| Dynarider |
The January/February issue of Fuell has a 2 page article on the XB front rotor. It includes a diagram of the mount system & explains that they accounted for any possible expansion. | ||
| S320002 |
Dyna, 302B stainless (used for parts exposed to high service temperature). CTE=.000009 in/in/deg F x 500 deg x 14 in =.063 in. About 20 times what you think. Greg | ||
| S320002 |
I haven't seen the Jan/Feb issue of Fuell but it sounds like my statement about FEA analysis is probably true. Greg | ||
| Dynarider |
Where did you come up with the 14", Rotor diameter? If that was a solid 14" rotor I would expect the growth to be greater, but with a width of what 1.75" or so is it still going to expand 3.5%? The article in Fuell is pretty good. Maybe Court or one of the dealers here has an extra copy laying around somewhere. edited by dynarider on June 21, 2003 | ||
| S320002 |
The rotor is going to expand in all directions so if makes more sense you can multiply the dia by pi x TCE etc. I did the calcs in my head so they're rough. Greg | ||
| Court |
>>>And I know for a fact there was a change, as I acquired that information from a factory Buell Engineer. I also posted a .pdf file of the Technical Service Bulletin on Badweb the day it went to dealers. Buell has been INCREDIBLY forthcoming with sharing info with owners and receiving owner input in improving products and processes. I do not get Fuell magazine. I'd like to be gave up and having my check returned in 1999. MORAL: Never say that Buell needs to improve customer service and parts delivery. Now that the systems are well on the way toward being straightened out I should submit another membership application. Court | ||
| Dynarider |
Im suprised to hear that Court. I thought for sure you would stay with Brag just to get the mag if nothing else. | ||
| Spiderman |
Blake, Oh wise one. This is straight from Buell her self. Thats why we have tech support on the problem now. Yeah if you spun a bearing you should replace the wheel but if it has a dent in it from some of the worst roads in America why whould they then??? >>>>>>When you purchase something new and it is defective, by law the seller must refund or repair it LOL what fantasy world are you living in if that were true Buell would have a lifetime warranty. The tech Has checked the out of round on the rim and the rotor warpage (if that is a word) and everything checks out. BUT he is still in contact with the Buell tech in Wi to see if they can get to the core of the problem. | ||
| Court |
>>>if they can get to the core of the problem. Right talent and resources are now in the mix, it will be resolved. Wanna have fun? How long would it take to get this level of talent looking at a concern on say your Ford, Kawasaki or Sea-Ray? Kudos to the TEAM at Buell. Court | ||
| Blake |
Spidy, A dent from an encounter with a road hazard is not a "defect." Buell warranties defective wheels. It is not a fantasy world. It is simple reality. If I purchase any new product and find it defective, it gets replaced or repaired under warranty. It is not a fantasy, it is the law. Maybe you are misinterpreting the meaning of "defective." | ||
| Court |
>>>Buell warranties defective wheels. Happily You two stop arguing or I'm going to make Blake write 1,000 equations on the board and Spidey sit with a dunce cap on. I'll bitch slap both of ya...I swear I will.  | ||
| Spiderman |
Court I love it when you talk dirty. A dinnged, ort dented wheel does mean it is defective. Unless acted upon by another force like your tripple clamps are tweeked cause of a wreck at the Gap Or a bad casting. Thats why we are looking into it hell this issue has spanned from NY to Wi. BTW sorry about the defective thing I was thinkin bout just in genral broke. I have been workin wayyyyy too much.  | ||
| Darthane |
Spidey, What did he say the OOR condition on the wheel was? I had two places tell me 0.020". I still adhere to my claim that it is the wheel, not a twisted triple clamp (Both XB9 and Shazam had the same problems with their front ends, XB9 said his OOR was 0.025" and Shazam told me 0.029", I believe. Both well within the spec for the wheel technically being OOR, which is 0.040" for lateral runout). If the triple clamp was causing it, it would have begun immediately after that. the triple clamp is a non-moving member, it would not gradually grind itself to the point it is at now. The thing that pisses me off is I will now have several hours of labor to pay for, on top of what I already have shelled out, and I am still going to end up with a new wheel one way or another. From what you're saying, it sure as hell sounds like they've already made up their minds not to warranty the wheel, so give me my damned motorcycle back, I'll order one from Dave and fix it myself. The bike will be getting a new lower triple clamp this winter as well as a new header, steering head bearings, and quite possibly a new rotor and isolators. I would rather spend my money on the parts and do it myself than continue to shell out money to not have my bike fixed, or to get it fixed and be gouged on the labor for a non-warranteed item. I'll get off my  now, I feel much better. And just for clarity's sake, it made it through WV, MD, VA, MD again, PA, NY, VT, NH, ME, then MA, NY, PA again, OH, and MI. Add to that Buell getting involved and we can tack on WI. Not bad, eh? Patience sucks. Bryan | ||
| Darthane |
How long would it take to get this level of talent looking at a concern on say your Ford, Kawasaki or Sea-Ray? <~~Court Not a fair comparison. Ford would have given me a new wheel just to get rid of me.  I really do appreciate it, guys. I need to vent now and then when I look at the empty spot in my garage, though. Bryan | ||
| Court |
I'll get off my now. I would too. Good people are giving up part of their weekend to sort this out. No one is blowing anyone off. I'll get off my now. | ||
| Xb9 |
With my front wheel problem, after measuring everything and studying my findings, I came to the determination that something is amiss in the specs in the service manual. Here were my findings: The out of true (lateral) runout of the wheel is 0.85mm (.0335"  Max. allowable is 1.02mm (.040". Runout (lateral) at the rotor surface, with the rotor mounted on the wheel, is 0.50mm (.020" . Max allowed is 0.45mm (0.0177" So, the wheel is within spec, but it's getting close to being out of Tol. The runout at the rotor is out of spec, but it's out mainly due to the runout of the wheel! The rotor by itself is nearly perfect for flatness and Parallelism. It would be great if someone at Buell would review these allowable tolerances. Hey, we are all human. | ||
| Xb9 |
The smiley faces were unintentional (cut and pasted from an email) | ||
| Jim_witt |
Blake said: A dent from an encounter with a road hazard is not a "defect." Buell warranties defective wheels. Agreed …… pretty logical on the "road hazard" scenario. Than again, how about a collateral damage warranty scenario. Say a non-warranted item like a wheel bearing self-destructs, which in turn destroys the hub therefore rendering the wheel useless? Think the wheel will be covered? -JW:> | ||
| Darthane |
Court, Like I said, I do appreciate it, I just needed to vent. I realize that there are people working on this that would otherwise be doing something else, and I'm sure they're getting sick of me bugging them just as I would like nothing better than to have my bike back. XB9, how did you measure just the rotor, and did you test its runout while you did the wheel itself? I only ask because I was given the impression that there really is no [good] way to check the rotor's runout. Bryan | ||
| Xb9 |
I have access (at work) to a 24" square granite surface plate with a digital dial indicator mounted on it. It reads to ten thousands of an inch. It is periodically certified for flatness, and the only way I can think of to check the rotor alone. The runout figures I quoted for the rotor were with the rotor mounted on the distorted wheel using a dial indicator on a truing stand. It's obvious (to me anyway) that the limits in the service manual may be in error. How else can the wheel be "in spec" when it is causing a perfectly good rotor to be out of spec?? |
