| Author | Message | ||
     Xb9 |
Blake, The problem surfaced around 5K before the original tire was ever changed, and the wheel or brake pads had never been off the bike. On the advise of an HD Area Service manager, the first thing we tried was new pads and rotor mounting hardware. That helped some but the vibration never went away, and progressively got worse. They key word here is progressive. The vibration was progressive, didn't happen all at once. Then I started looking into the runout and correctly identified it as the cause, verified by the dealer afterward for warranty. FWIW, I do all my tire change and balancing myself, gingerly, with tire irons. No machine. I have been changing my own motorcycle tires on and off for 33 years, never had a problem. I'm done. Carry on if you like. | ||
| Valvetrash |
I am having the same problem as XB9 had. Mine also occurred around 5.5k before the original tire was changed. I'm not trying to say anything about the design, just that I am having a similar problem. | ||
| Shazam |
Realize I am just "joe idiot" riding around on a daily basis, with five senses, three of which are telling me something is fubar. I keep reminding myself to be polite. (I still don't understand how this screen can get me so upset!) I am sure Blake has enough statistical information on the XB front end to nullify our combined 30k miles worth of intimate knowledge on the subject!......(expletive).... yeah, brake pads! (why didn't I think of that?) Blake didn't say if his pad wedging caused him pulsation, just that his brakes went soft. He also says "Knowing what I know about how steel likes to move around during machining and heat treating......". I don't think it is possible that much heat is being cunducted to the rim during braking. however heating and cooling cyclically over a period of time has a potential to distort metals (like a warped rotor), and could be affecting the wheel. XB9: as per your Q..... I am wondering now, if my rotor is still "floating". Man I can't remember if I checked it for any freeplay when I dropped it off. when I get home tonight I will be feeling out the new one, and comparing it with the one at the dealership as soon as they/ I can....I think it's possible we are all missing something here, but I don't know what it might be. I know you replaced your rotor bushings at some point and was thinking about your previous post about binding...... I am with you 100% on the progressivity of the problem! Mine got so bad recently that I wouldn't dare ride it on the track that way, not to mention cornering on the street being real iffy. I will try and get some pictures of what it did to the tire(pilot sport) in under 500 miles....fucking amazing! and I've seen "all" kinds of tire wear. I think the tire, at that point, was more of what I was feeling, however I assume the wheel caused the tire problem.....I left that tire on it when I took it to the dealer, to see if they will tell me I got a bad tire (possible?) or what their take on it was and haven't heard back yet. The real question ( and one I haven't heard an answer from you, yet) is.... Did the "New" front wheel ass'y fix your pusating? It did mine (that and a new tire) which rules out every other component! I agree that haphazard treatment or abuse could cause these problems, but the only guy who touches my bike, I would trust with two dozen eggs in a hailstorm, walking on nails. Don't get me wrong, I am not divesting myself of any potential blame, I ride the bike hard. but I've never put her down and in all my (20+) years of riding I've never had this problem! It's disconcerting when something you know works so well, doesn't and no-one knows why...... whether or not it's an Isolated issue? This is just my experience. it seems to me like we've been through this once before......prior to the bearing update ?????? so what? five people, just on this thread........ 15208 miles as of yesterday! where you at? by the way....I LOVE this bike, did I already say that? Court, (with all due respect...and a great appreciation for your experiences and the ability and willingness to share them) I find it disheartening.... your remarkably insightful contribution to this subject......that's just great.... the god-father of all things buell.......very helpful! signed frustrated and disappointed(with BWB) Sam and absolutely certain I am way out of line.....my apologies now, tomorrow I'll be in a better mood. removed line of "????"'s to reduce page width edited by blake on June 21, 2003 | ||
| Blake |
No apologies necessary. I can be a real ass sometimes. I get upset at what I perceive to be irresponsible blame aimed at Buell engineering and suggesting the bike needs a conventional wheel/brake kit to replace defective OEM parts. The information we have at this point is completely inadequate to warrant jumping to such a conclusion. Yes my irregularly worn pads caused SEVERE pulsating, more prevalent in hard right hand turns. I have not bothered to conjure why. Measure runout before and after tire changes. The XB9 front wheel is probably more susceptible to being distorted than ANY previous model of motorcycle wheel. So the contention that "I never had a problem before" in no way eliminates that possibility from the list of suspects. In fact, it may make it an even greater possibility. Making ANY assumptions at this point is simply irresponsible. Tire problems can be caused by a host of factors from poor balancing to bad suspension settings to improper inflation to tire defects themselves. Throwing out and latching on to assumptions will not benefit our quest for understanding or resolution of the problem. I have some experience in failure diagnosis. It absolutely demands a cunning and rigorous attention to detail lest the wrong conclusions be drawn. If you are really interested in identifying the root cause of the problem should it resurface in your new wheels/brakes... Start with measuring the runout just prior to and immediately after your next tire change. Mark and replace the brake pads in their original positions. Document the balancing of the wheel and the suspension settings. Then we'll have some information to go on should problems arrise again. Did you remove the caliper in order to remove the front wheel? Exercise forks prior to tightening axle pinch bolts? | ||
| Davegess |
My understanding is that not only is the XB wheel very sensitive to balance issues but it also requires a very specific balancing procedure that is not always followed by mechanics. | ||
| Blake |
Dave, If possible can you relate that special balancing procedure here? Is it described in the service manual? | ||
| Davegess |
It is called out in the manual. I don't think it is real unusual just finding the heavy spot of the wheel and tire and correct positioning the weights. | ||
| Darthane |
Toasted my first front wheel while on the Northeast Adventure. Noticed a brake pulsation under light front braking. It diminished under heavier breaking as the rotor found its track in the floats. Had a dealer (Triple S in Morgantown, WV) look at it, was told nothing was wrong. Low tire pressure. Added air, still there. Brought it back the next morning. Blown seal on a brand new front wheel bearing, replaced under warranty. Had the front pads replaced at the same time. Took it for a ride, still there, 10X worse now. At this point it was 11am and I had to be in Gettysburg at 5. Got the bill. There was an hour and ahalf of labor on there (which obviously should have been warranteed) and the brake pads ($58). Total bill $150. Argued with the guy for a couple minuted before disgustedly telling them that I had to be 300 miles from there in 6 hours and storming out. On the way to Gettysburg, after going up and down an awesome mountain three times, I felt my arms getting tired, set the throttle lock and leaned back to stretch, looked down and saw my steering head shaking violently (bar ends moving a little over an inch with each oscillation). Rode the rest of the way to Gettysburg with it that way, didn't get there in time to have them look at it, so I go back the next morning after having XB9 look at it just to make sure I wasn't imagining things. Tech rides it, admits there's a problem, rebalances the front wheel, still there. Doesn't know what the problem is. For reference, I and/or XB9 told both dealers that it was the front wheel, and if they would just take a wheel from a demo bike or floor bike and put it on it would prove it beyond a doubt. No dice. After two hours I gave up and left for Binghamton. To Battlefield's credit, they only charged me for an hour's labor, even though I was pretty damned rude with them the day before (not their fault, but I was REALLY frustrated at that point, and I did apologize). I even received a call from them yesterday asking if I was satisfied with their service, to which I replied that I guess I was, within the confines of the bike still not being fixed, which then meant that I had to explain that comment. I decide to just grin and bear it until I got home. Made a stop in Rochester, NY to put a tire on to rule that out. Still does it, and while balancing the wheel I can actually SEE that it is out of round. I take it to American HD here in Ann Arbor and after explaining what was up to the service guy and telling him the bike was under warranty still he replied, simply, "Harley doesn't warranty wheels." I asked him if it was just due to road damage that they wouldn't. "Harley doesn't warranty wheels - it doesn't matter if it was a defect or you hit something." So I left - if they're going to make me pay for a wheel then there's no way they're getting another cent of my money for the labor of installing it, too. Talked to a contact last night, though, who has been trying to give me a hand with the problem since it started, and was told that I had to take it in to the dealer and they would try to get it fixed, one way or another. Fine by me, but I've already paid $200 to not have my bike fixed, and now if I want even the CHANCE that they'll warranty it I'm going to get stuck with more labor charges for them to take it apart and monkey with it. Needless to say, the whole situation is making me mad and if it wasn't for this guy doing his best to give me a hand I'd have already ordered a new wheel, installed it myself and gotten on with my life. Oh, and now I'm worried that it may be BOTH wheels, as the brake pulsation is there at low speeds when using the front OR rear brake, and at really low speeds when coasting I can even feel it without either brake being used. -=sigh=- It's a good thing I've got another bike in the garage or I'd shoot someone. Bryan | ||
| Bud |
Bryan, Douse your disk look like this ??  the other side looks ok  The ware pattern looks to me it’s warped, but my dealer thinks it ok they blamed the fronttyre, and the worn brake pads bought are replaced, dun some 3500 km with it sins the other side looks ok the run out was ok, but with a cold disk the puls is very irritating, when hot i barely notice it gr, martin | ||
| Darthane |
Martin, I don't have the bike here anymore (it's at American) but I did not see any irregular wear marks on the rotor the last time I checked (about 4 days ago now). The pads themselves were worn evenly as near as my eye could discern. The head shake did not seem as bad to me today as when I first noticed it, and I fear it is because the new brake pads are wearing to the rotor...which means I probably WILL have an uneven wear pattern on THESE pads. Unfortunately (or fortunately, perhaps, given my luck with dealers) American has agreed not to do anything to the bike until they hear from the factory regarding this, and I was unable to get ahold of the guy today. I know, I know, I'm being impatient, but patience was never my strong point, especially when I've been trying to get it fixed since over a week ago and just couldn't afford the time to let it sit in one dealership until they could get around to really looking it over good. Bryan | ||
| Blake |
Bryan, You shouldn't have to pay ANY labor charges for a warranty repair. Wheels, along with everything else on the bike are covered by your warranty. To any dealer that has the gall to lie to you and claim that "Harley doesn't warranty wheels", simply reply "Buell does, please fix or replace my wheel under warranty now, or I will call customer service and have them settle the issue." If they don't believe there is a problem, have them ride the thing. It is completely disheartening to hear about the level of dis-service some dealers are willing to force on us. The discoloration does not indicate any problem, just that the disk was hot. I don't understand your comment/concern about the brake pads wearing unevenly. Were your old pads worn unevenly? If yes, how so? | ||
| Darthane |
Blake, I understand that I shouldn't have to pay labor charges for warranteed work. I just did back in Morgantown, WV. Too pissed to care at the time. Buell is involved in my situation so hopefully I will be able to get the wheel warranteed and replaced free of charge, but I'm not holding my breath. In a week I won't care one way or another and I'll simply be asking Dave S. to order me one so I can get my bike back. As to the brake pads, no, the original pads were not worn unevenly. My concern now is that the head shake is slowly going away, and I believe it is due to the rotor wearing away the portions of the pads that were pressing on it so hard and causing the head shake in the first place. But I could (hopefully) be wrong. I'm still relatively new to this whole motorcycling thing, so I just try to think things through logically, but sometimes my starting points are wrong. Bryan | ||
| Blake |
Rubbing brake pads wouldn't cause head shake. Head shake would be a steering head bearing, wheel imbalance, or steering geometry/suspension issue. Some with similar symptoms have switched to another tire (not the OEM tire) and the no-hands shake disappeared. What are your sag settings? | ||
| Darthane |
I went through the entire suspension thing - twice. The first time was with XB9 - a former road racer and current owner of an XB9R. I trust what he did - it made the bike WORLDS better. I redid the compression and rebound settings again just to make sure that the first dealership did not @#$% them up. The suspension settings are fine. Now that I have no saddlebags on the bike I am going to tweak my preload settings a bit. My reasoning for the brake pads/head shake thing is thus (and it could be erroneous, as I said before, it seems logical to me, but that doesn't make it right): The wheel is slightly out of round. Fact, I can see it. This caused the brake pulsation. The rotor itself is still floating properly (I can depress the rotor at each spring). The head shake occurred after having new pads put on, thus my logical thought was that since I now have over twice the brake pad thickness that I did before, the rotor has just that much less room to float in and is rubbing the pad harder than before (if it was at all) under a no-brake situation. This could cause the head shake, at least to my mind. I have had three different front tires on it since the problem occurred. Still there. I personally balanced the one that is on there now. I trust myself - I do not trust any dealership farther than I can throw my Firebolt. I'm a little guy, that's not far. If it matters, I had a D208 on there when the shake began, put a OEM D207 on it, then (what is currently on the bike) a standard D207. The shake is always there, it is just most visible when my hands are off the bars. I know that the wheel itself is causing the problem. Period. It may only be one contributor (I never did get around to checking the steering head bearings) but it is definitely a HUGE part if not all of the problem. Bryan | ||
| Blake |
Let us know what your dealer determines. | ||
| Jim_witt |
Blake mentioned: ...... To any dealer that has the gall to lie to you and claim that "Harley doesn't warranty wheels", simply reply "Buell does, please fix or replace my wheel under warranty ...... Just to let you know, it took them 5 months to replace my wheel. I was told the same thing BTW. I also "recall" but can't confirm it (because I can't find my extended warranty) that the extended warranty doesn't cover wheels (could be wrong). They also tried telling me the cupping of the front tire caused my rotor to warp and refused to cover it under warranty. I could tell you stories you wouldn't believe, plus some of the folks that pulled this shit were promoted up the Buell corporate ladder. Tried getting on with life but this does bring back some screwed up memories. -JW:>  | ||
| Blake |
I'm not talking about an extended warranty. Yep. It is too friggin' sad. It's like the dealers are being paid to sabotage Buell. | ||
| Jim_witt |
Blake wrote: ...... It is too friggin' sad. It's like the dealers are being paid to sabotage Buell ...... Exactly how I feel. Love the bikes hate dealing with the dealerships I have available to me. -JW:> | ||
| S320002 |
Blake, "Rubbing brake pads wouldn't cause head shake." Brake pads rubbing unevenly could easily cause oscillations, leading to headshake. Darthane, If you sit on the bike (engine off) and rock forward and back with the front brake locked do you hear a clicking noise? Also check for any sign of the forks twisting in the triple tree clamps. Greg | ||
| Darthane |
S32002, I've never noticed the clicking noise that many people have reported with brakes, but I've never tried that particular test before. Unfortunately I am not in possession of my little 'bolt right now, it's at the dealer hopefully being fixed (even more hopefully, fixed under warranty!). I checked the forks before I left, they seemed fine then. I'm not sure if thi mke a difference or not, but I have inverted forks, so the lower portions swivel by design (that's in the serie manual re: how to get the front wheel off... good joke, since its loads easier to remove the caliper), only the upper portions are clamped in the triple trees. Whenever I get the bike back I will be doing the 10000mi service, one of things is replacing the fork oil, so they'll be off anf remounted soon, just to make sure. Bryan | ||
| S320002 |
Bryan, The clicking noise can be caused by wear around the rotor attachment pins. Too much wear can allow the brake rotor to move slightly off center. This could result in the balance and braking conditions you describe. An off center condition might not show up under no load conditions however, any off-center condition would likely be more evident under dynamic braking loads. I know you have "inverted" forks the question was about possible moment in the triple tree clamps. Greg | ||
| S320002 |
By the way, the fact that changing the rotor mounting hardware helped but didn't fix the condition points to the possibility the the rotor is worn at the mounting points. Greg | ||
| Darthane |
I never changed the rotor mounting hardware - no idea if that is the culprit or not. The rotor still floated properly, but without measuring it I'd have no idea if the rotor/mounting hardware was still in tolerance or not. As far as I know, the triple clamps were still plenty tight on the forks. -=shrugs=- We'll see, I'm hoping to hear something about my bike today or tomorrow. Bryan | ||
| S320002 |
Sorry Bryan, it was Xb9 who changed the rotor mounting hardware. You know you guys kinda look alike from where I'm sitting. Greg | ||
| Darthane |
LOL...our issues are very parallel, but the two of us are pretty different. He's old.  edited by darthane on June 20, 2003 | ||
| Xb9 |
old?? Isn't that a relative statement; just older than you, youngster!  | ||
| Xb9 |
My original wheel assy. never "clicked" The replacement wheel assy. has always clicked, most noticeably at lower speeds and cold rotor. I was told the rotor clearance at the mount bushings was increased from the early builds. They have never confirmed that the lack of clearance was the cause of my wheel distortion, but in my mind it is a good possibility. My XB is #640, so it is an early build. | ||
| Darthane |
Is the serial number for XBs the last few digits of the VIN? I've no idea what number mine is. | ||
| Spiderman |
>>>>>>"Harley doesn't warranty wheels", simply reply "Buell does, please fix or replace my wheel under warranty now, AHHHH I see you have worked at a dealer before.  NO Blake H-D nor Buell cover wheels under warranty, I am talking with tech services now and still wating on this magic tech from Buell to call me. | ||
| Darthane |
I got a call from Motor City today saying that they had talked to him. WTF? I told him a couple times that the bike was at American, and I thought that he had called there because he called me to verify where the bike was yesterday. He said that he had called American and they said the bike wasn't there...now I'm thinking perhaps he called Motor City both times (they are the dealer that I bought my bike from). Update: Right after I posted this I got a call back from him. Tony, he told me that he was in contact with a guy named David, who is the quote unquote 'regular Buell guy'. He should have my bike on the rack tomorrow checking things out, so a bit behind schedule but moving, so all is well. ...at least until I get the bill and have a coronary. Bryan edited by darthane on June 20, 2003 |
