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Ducxl
| | Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 08:11 pm: | 
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And--I think I am now asking this question for the third or fourth time-- have you ever reported the issue in writing to Buell Motorcycle Corporation?
I'm going to get off my butt and get that done.A thoughtful,constructive letter.My wife will help,she's got a Masters in Justice studies and is very articulate in writing.I'll post that result when i make it happen. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 08:25 pm: |
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>>>>He is a liar and a man without integrity who has zero credibility.
________________________________________
Hey . . . but at least my Mother and my dog love me.
You are indeed correct there was a report 2-1/2 years ago. I'm not willing to make the quantum leap and suggest that of 75,000 XB's that a single report would have prompted me to fire the retro-rockets. For the statistically minded amongst you the reports, prior to the instant iteration of the discussion, represented roughly 0.000013% of the Buell made. No chart busting stuff. . but nonetheless, based on what we know now, data.
There may, and this is pure conjecture, have been a case where there was a bad process that resulted in a few poor performers, things got better then worse. It's all guessing.
My point remains unchanged in that I have total faith and confidence in the folks at Buell. They have always done what's required, right and gone further in the past.
I posted a while back the 75 pages of 49CFR§571.108 Standard 108, S1 which specifies "Scope: This standard specifies requirements for original and replacement; lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment" to illustrate that AFTER the root cause is determined it's not a case of running to Auto-Zone, grabbing all the lights they have in stock and shipping them out.
First, it's essential that the cause, not the symptom, be identified. If you've ever doubled nuted your exhaust nuts you know that curing the symptoms are temporary . . . you learned that lesson when you removed the broken stud off that the double nuts sent the problem on to.
Once the problem is identified, development commences, presumably in a fairly accelerated rate (and some of this can be farmed out to a very specialized firm) to quickly design, engineer, test (see the testing specs above), manufacture and distribute the new product. Bear in mind that we're talking the United States here. . . less than 50% of Buells market. If, and I've heard not reports from abroad, the same malady exists overseas each countries testing and certification process will have to be adhered to. If you think Harley is slow, let me introduce you to the United States government.
Bottom line is. . . I don't doubt one single bit that there is a problem. Being a "light fanatic" I'm sure I'd have been one of the first screaming. My sneaking suspicion (and I've not had one word with anyone) is that Buell folks are hard at work. In addition, if I were Buell, I'd not say a single word until I knew what the problem was and how I intended to fix it. That, for better or worse, is the situation we the fine folks of the country where 94%+ of the world's lawsuits emanate have created.
My favorite example on sorting out root causes. . . and those of you who have heard me speak on teamwork just bear with me for a moment. . . is the Ford Crown Victoria electrical problem.
Damned if 1 out of 6 Crown Vics wasn't arriving to dealerships with a dead battery. Wise men and women scratched, sniffed, hypothesized and postulated about what the hell it could be. . . FIX IT . . demanded the dealers.
Ford did what other folks do when baffled, they engaged consultants. Consultants, forgive me Bomber, are generally folks who have little stake in the consequences of the final outcome.
They redoubled their efforts, worked overtime, tried larger batteries, beat themselves into mental pancake batter and the problem persisted. All the fixes they through at it, without knowing the problem, failed miserably.
I'll spin about $25,000,000 ahead to the end. You folks have seen those dandy car carriers going down the highway. . . the ones with the hydraulic cylinders all over them and the cars that look like they are about to leap onto your hood.
Well Ford, was loading 6 Crown Vics to a trailer and the last one on the top was that precarious looking thing that sits at the odd looking angle. . . the angle that is just about, by 1o enough to activate the Mercury switch for the trunk light.
Case closed.
I'm betting on Buell to figure out and solve the problem.
Court |
Lost_in_ohio
| | Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 09:32 pm: |
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Just out of curiosity how much does a new reflector cost?????? Geez just buy a new one.
My 99 explorer head lights are plastic and have oxidized. And I could no longer see very well at night. So, I replaced them with some from ebay. Normal wear and tear guys. |
Saintly
| | Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 10:07 pm: |
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Ohio,
I bought a brand spankin new 2007 firebolt 4 months ago.
As of 2 weeks ago, my low beam looks like this:
You suggest that I should just drop $65 on a new one?
In September when that one is toast, should I spend more money?
Now, if you're willing to buy them for me, I'll just shut the F up. I'll email you every time they're shot and you can pony up the coin to replace em OK? That sounds fair right?
Seriously, I apologize for acting like an A-hole to you, but the only thing that's as aggravating as having a new bike with a problem, is having other people who don't have that problem telling me to stop being upset about it and just throw more money at it.
I think I spent enough money with Buell, I did buy two new XB's after all. |
T9r
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 08:01 am: |
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Here is the new one that I got, as a replacement for my 2004 w/ 3k mi (not nearly as bad as some that I've seen), in May 2007. It came complete, I only opened it up to inspect and photo it.
Here are some internal differences from 2003 to 2007. I did cut down the one on the left down to let more light out.
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Xb9
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 09:39 am: |
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For the record, I was the first to report the problem on Badweb 12/2/2003, after one year, 8 months of ownership and 25K miles (I bought one of the first XB9's #640)
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=32777&post=212600#POST212600
After I hit a piece of concrete in the road that I did not see and broke my front wheel, I realized there was a problem with the headlight. It was a very gradual process of degradation that I did not identify until this incident happened. After I determined the problem with the reflective coating, I felt replacing with OEM was not an option as I would end up with the same problem down the road. I elected to design my own solution with the 90mm Hella replacements.
I had a feeling that others would have the same problem as the miles piled up, but at the time it was out of warrenty and I felt contacting Buell would only result in replacement with OEM so I did not bother. As of a couple of months ago the housings are in Buells possession.
(Message edited by xb9 on June 05, 2007) |
Fdl3
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:13 am: |
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Wouldn't it be ironic if opening up the headlight housing to inspect the reflective coating contributes to a faster rate of degradation? I don't think the headlight housing is sealed completely, but maybe it is sealed just enough such that exposing the innards(TM) any more than they are causes faster failure? Just an evil, twisted thought to add to the madness...!
At any rate, I have resolved to just replace the headlights with OEM parts. The OEM part is not terribly expensive, and I know if I attempt to install the Hella 90mm units (which I would really like), I'd royally mess something up in the process.
Perhaps Buell could offer a "Light Upgrade Kit" as an accessory? This way perhaps a recall could be avoided, and yet Buell could demonstrate a willingness to work with consumers. Kind of a compromise along the lines of "meeting halfway". I'd be happy with that.
Especially if such a kit were offered by Buell as a factory replacement for the stock headlights, and the kit was less than $200, and no wiring modifications are necessary. I would even settle on using the Hella 90mm units if Buell could somehow economically engineer a new headlight mounting bracket -> man, that would be icing on the cake!
I know the argument can be made (with merit) that consumers should not have to foot the bill for a safety issue such as this after having already plunked down a chunk of money from the original purchase; however, I have had such a positive experience with my XB9R that I would gladly help defray the cost...to a point of course! 
YMMV |
Rd3501
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:14 am: |
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Heres the sad part. I would have never taken the time to pull my headlights apart if so many were not bitching about the headlights. And find the problems. As you can see I dont really ride my bike that much, working way to many hours it seems. I remember looking at the front fairing going damn, this is going to take like 2 hours..Maybe I should do it next week..lol looking back over the last few years I remember no one hits me with their brights anymore. Now I know why...
Here is the positive I see. If it wasnt for us bitching there would be a few less people working at Buell. R & D, Customer support, extra Managment.etc.. So you could look at it like we are keeping people employeed who would not have a job if it wasnt for us. So see we do support Buell in some twisted way..lol
Just wanted to thank everyone, in a good way.
Now if Buell can just put a oil sight window in the primary like I have been asking for years.. |
Ridrx
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 12:27 pm: |
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Court,
I see your point about the Crown Vic problem and I agree the cause must be known in order to effectively solve the problem, however it seems likely once the vehicle was leveled(removed from trans.)and the battery replaced that the problem would no longer exist on THAT vehicle.
Level the car, replace the battery and send the customer on their way...
...the problem still exists for the dealer/manuf. but the paying customer was not inconvenienced.
It also was nowhere near the safety concern of our problem.
Our situation requires SOME of us to replace these parts on our dime...frequently. Even after a solution is found, I'm still out of pocket $65 a pop every 4-6k miles I ride until then. That adds up to a substantial amount of money if a solution takes more than a few months. Certainly Buell isn't going to reimburse me.
Would it have been dealt with differently if those Crown Vic owners had to buy a new battery every 5k miles?
Or if those batteries had the potential to really hurt or even kill a customer?
I don't know.
If the lights on our bikes didn't work on the showroom floor, I could only guess Buell would likely be moving much faster.
I do know that scenario's like Xb9's, more often than not, result in a less than favorable outcome for ALL...rider,family,bike,ins. comp.,manufacturer,dealer...everybody pays.
Ride safe.
(Message edited by RidrX on June 05, 2007) |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 01:21 pm: |
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>>>I could only guess Buell would likely be moving much faster.
I disagree.
I suspect Buell is moving as fast as possible at this point, likely constrained by the above mentioned bureaucracy.
The point with the Crown Vics was not incidence of the consequences but rather to shed light (great analogy, huh?) on the need to understand who's behind the wall before you shoot.
I continue to summarily reject the inference that the folks at Buell, fully aware of the problem, are sitting about taking a "screw our customer" attitude.
Court |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 02:14 pm: |
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Although i've heard in the past that,"we're not even on their radar" in reference to what's said here.I'd like to think that,we're being heard regarding this issue.I believe it.Court inspires faith.But time is of the essence.Please phone Erik and tell him to hustle will 'ya? |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 02:20 pm: |
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At his age?
Please.
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Ridrx
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 02:20 pm: |
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I continue to summarily reject the inference that the folks at Buell, fully aware of the problem, are sitting about taking a "screw our customer" attitude.
Court,
That's not at all what I was trying to convey, sorry if it appeared that way. I often forget that a typed sentence must sometimes be worded differently than a spoken one.
My point, as minuscule and meaningless as it may be, was I don't believe it would take the exorbitant amount of time folks are suggesting(months/years?) to resolve this if Buell were losing money(bikes not selling) daily(weekly?). I do know all companies that expect to make a profit must prioritize.
I just can't buy that if DOT or whoever stepped in and said "these lights don't meet X standard, you can't sell another one until they do" that Buell would stop selling Bolts for untold months while "research" is done. Again, only my opinion.
I genuinely hope you are right, and this doesn't take too awful long. As I said before, I don't have the warm, fuzzy history dealing with Buell you have been fortunate enough to have(yes, I'm jealous LOL), but I look forward to the day I can "recall the time Buell...(insert good deed here)."
Gone ridin' |
Sparky
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 08:28 pm: |
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I wonder if a close-fitting heat sink that could be bonded to the outside surface of the reflector housing using a layer of thermal conducting adhesive would be effective in making the stock headlight last without sef-destructing?
Rationale: if the heat sink can dissipate the heat fast enough, the plastic shouldn't melt and the chrome plating material should remain intact (gut feel).
Imagine, a radiator for your headlights, lol. Hey, but if it works...
If anybody's got the time to do a little test with an infrared heat sensing device, it would be interesting to see what the top outside surface temperature of the low beam housing measures after it's been on for an hour or so just to find out if it's cold, warm or hot. That might be telling, eh? |
Sparky
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 04:00 pm: |
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Well, no need for a temperature reading. I did an informal 30 minute ride with both headlights on and the housings got so hot that I couldn't touch them for longer than a split second. Instant ouch! I think there's merit in the heat sink approach. Waddya think? |
Unibear12r
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 08:54 pm: |
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Maybe!
But you are going to have to be careful what those heatsinks get close to!
Note! Sinks just on the bottom may just make the problem worse than better.
It's not a simple problem but I like your idea Sparky!!! |
Unibear12r
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 09:29 pm: |
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And you just made me think of the complexity of all this. For the people who's reflectors have failed... it might not be the reflectors at all. It might be uneven heat dissipation due to cables or devices that are too close/touching the lights in bikes where they fail and not in the bikes where the lights don't fail.
Don't know... just a thought. |
Doz
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:00 am: |
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I just picked up a Hella 90mm low beam and it IS vented, it also has a plate in front of the bulb just like the "spoon" in the stocker. |
Ridrx
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:09 am: |
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I,m gonna be due for a replacement soon, so I think I'll cough up for a new one and drill a small hole(chimney?) in the top of the housing and see if that slows it down any, can't do any worse.
Good point about the cables, I'll check the routing tomorrow for contact/proximity.
Maybe we need a fan under the fairing LOL. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 11:54 am: |
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I've noticed that there are few reported degradation problems with the XB 'S' models whereas there seem to be many with the 'R's. Could this be due to the 'S' headlights being exposed to the air and not shrouded behind a fairing? Hmmm, maybe if this is a factor, perhaps a perforated grill could be used instead of the black plastic piece presently on the Firebolts? |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 11:56 am: |
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I think it's related to the diameter of the cone directly surrounding the bulb.The "S" models are flatter than the "R". |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 12:33 pm: |
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I just picked up a Hella 90mm low beam and it IS vented
pics, pics, pics, please... |
Doz
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 08:04 am: |
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Midknyte, and others: I'm doing my own experiment after finding that vent on the hella unit. I've bought a stock replacement low beam and I'm going to vent it, then take pics every month to monitor the situation. If it still fails I'll then convert it to the hellas. The vent will be in the same general location(about 11 o'clock position) as the hella and won't be just a hole but protected by some sort of breather tube. I'll post some before pics this weekend. |
Firebolteric_ma
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 09:19 am: |
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Even with good reflectors you WILL NOT get the same amount of light them Hella's put out.
That Low Beam WILL out shine both Low/High beams on with the stockers. But it is an excellent test to try out!!!! Keep us posted on that Doz!!!!
My bike is at the dyno's right now, but when I get it back,
*****I have come up with a clean, easy way to mount them to the stock bracket AND still have the adjusters on the outside for easy adjusting.*****
I will post pic's when finished!
Good things happen when walking around Lowe's
I may need a new bracket soon as I have been R&D (3x)on the same one now, But with trial and error comes good things. |
Old_man
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 01:18 pm: |
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In one of the original magazine tests, the tester expressed concern about possible heat build-up in the small plastic headlights. He was assured by Buell that there would be no problems.
It seems that, in some cases, they were wrong. |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 05:09 pm: |
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What magazine,what issue.....just the facts please |
Unibear12r
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 07:43 pm: |
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Sparky...I think SIZE matters!!! |
Old_man
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 07:47 pm: |
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It's been 4 years since I read the article, I don't remember which magazine did the test, but it was one of the reasons I decided to buy my 2003 XB9S. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 09:53 pm: |
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Well, Unibear, I'm with ya, man. I'm beginning to realize that excessive heat buildup is a significant factor in this degradation, but, you know, I'm sure there are ways to deal with it (excessive heat in a small area).
I mean, look at the go-fast guys that depend on supercharging/turbocharging for increased HP in a relatively small {size} engine -- they use an intercooler to dissipate excessive heat. On spacecraft, they use heat pipes to transfer heat from hot spots to cooler locations.
I'm thinking there are probably various ways of reducing the heat buildup in this design. I've thought of a couple: vent the fairing front to allow unhindered air flow and add heat sinks to the outside of the reflector housings.
My idea wouldn't take much: drilling X number of holes in the fairing's black headlight surrounds and finding a suitable electronic component heat sink that could be adapted to fit the curved reflector housing.
Ah, but this is just a plan in the brainstorming stages. LOL, I'm full of ideas, but moving beyond ideas into something practical takes a bit of research, testing and conviction that the idea will work. But, I think, if the exact root cause (of the degradation) were known, the proper fix would have presented itself already. |
Unibear12r
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2007 - 10:46 pm: |
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Using heat sinks would be interesting but may crack the reflector due to uneven expansion. That could take a bit of time and money to perfect! You need to start with a good plan for an even heat draw I think. But then again it might not be a problem at all for what I really know!
Drilling holes in the light housing (not the fairing) may rapidly take out the lamp for the same reason.
What if the reflector is sensitive to say a segment of infrared or ultraviolet produced by the lamp? That would work/heat directly on the reflector and heat sinking, holes anywhere or any type of cooling won't be very effective. I know that's getting out there a ways but its possible I think. Could even be a problem with other lamps with the same wattage as the oem lamp. Part of the reason I was hoping everyone would post what lamp they were using on the other thread.
I don't care much for water cooled engines but how about water cooled lights!!!! 
(Message edited by unibear12r on June 08, 2007) |
Bruceclay
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 04:59 pm: |
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OK just to dredge up an old thread...
I just tried to order a replacement OEM low beam for my firebolt and was told they are discontinued!!!!!!!!!
OK.. i say, so are firebolts discontinued??...
no...
so what are they using in new firebolts?
..OH HMMM... it's the same part #...
So now the guy is going to call buell back and try to find out something.
Poor parts guy has no idea of the problem..
what a surprise |
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