| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
I have never seen a blast on the road. I know people own them, but I have never seen them. I wonder if they are like Crown Victorias. The number one purchaser of the Crown Vics are not Joe Citizen. It's governmental organizations and law enforcement. I suspect that the number one purchaser of Blasts are dealers with Rider's edge programs. The second largest purchaser would be new graduates from the Rider's Edge program. I can't imagine that dealerships pay full MSRP. My wife hasn't shown much interest in riding until recently. She wants a Vespa. Eventually, I could see her doing an MSF or Rider's Edge course. The Blast would be her first and best option. I would love to see the breakdown of models sold. Even if the Blast is a cash cow based upon manufacture costs, I doubt that the production run is sufficient to have any real meaningful impact. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Locally I have two on hand & two sold this year, have sold 3 last year, and 2 the year before. I sell what I get, the demand is there, but it is not like the Fatboy that people come in looking for it by reputation. It is a fun bike, very versatile. Now as to a cash cow, historically that is an animal that you are able to sell for a very high profit with minimal investment... An H3 compared to a Tahoe is a cash cow, they the same chasis and drive train, would you pay 60k for a tahoe? Heeeere's your sign. Every product and service in a economy is meant to make money, if it doesnt, then it will fail to provide that service or product in the future. Again, if you feel that you can build one for less,...Then build it. dont forget the $250 in fasteners that every first time builder seems to neglect. | ||
| Rocketman |
Anonymous, your whole post seems like a refusal, thinly veiled as an excuse, not to reveal the stats. $1500 build cost including the toilet roll in the factory toilet. Senior managements cups of coffee. The whole nine yards. $1500 is what it costs to build a Blast. I hope when you get to the office you'll be getting the figure and posting it here. Then we'll see if you need to "refrain" or not. My local supermarket sells new budget DVD players for £17. Less than five years ago even the cheapest piece of budget crap DVD player cost upwards of £130. But the budget ones selling today are the latest up to date designs. They incorporate all the usual features of DVD players made today, and they're a quarter of the size of the first generation models. Truly amazing product from anyones perspective. Tell me anonymous, with all your manufacturer experience and know how, and you'd agree the £17 DVD is profitable, how is this possible? By the same reasoning please explain why the Blast isn't down to about $299 retail? Sorry, did I miss a 5 off the end, or not! One other thing. Reading some of the responses above, some of you need to read the thread again. The reason the cost of manufacturing a Blast is at question is because of this comment....... My fear is not that Buell will come out with a water-cooled bike, my fear is that in the intrest of appealing to a larger audience, they will water down (no pun intended) what the Buell brand is and means to those of us who love it and its products. To which I replied..... And you don't consider that some, like myself, who bought brand new tubers in the 90's don't think that's already happened with the Blast and XB lines? When I bought a Buell it was really something exotic. Especially with its minimalistic approach and its very high price. Your City X is as common as muck, and cheap in comparison. Frankly, I was singing your song at least 5 years ago. You can listen to it in the BadWeB archives. Eventually I got sick of asking for a world beating limited production 150mph tube frame Buell. Meanwhile the Italians brought us Ducati superbike powered Monsters. Benelli did the same and gave us the TNT's. Aprilia likewise with the Tuonos. MV again with the Brutales. Buell? Well they brought us the Blast. If that ain't watered down from the lofty heights of tube frame Streetfighters my arse is a sweet flavoured fruit. I'd appreciate it if some could stay in focus before flaming me. Rocket | ||
| Nutsnbolt |
You must be a whole bunch of fun at family get togethers. My local car dealership sells budget Cars, too. They have all the same features as a Bentley. Seats, steering wheel, tires, heat, A/C, power seats, power windows, sunroof, engine, hell, even leather seats if you ask, floormats, GPS in the car, OnStar, and compared to the Bentley, it's just a fraction of the cost. Now, why are Bentley's so expensive? I've never seen anyone RACE them down the freeway... I know of Eclipse's that are faster than the Bentley. What a cash cow, right? There are fewer Bentley's out there compared to Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Volkswagen, blah, blah, blah. Hell, Mercedes makes a cheap car, comparitavly to their line up, too. I don't see the reasoning in your Argument, Rocket. Mercedes doesn't have to make a cheap car, but they do... They have all the name recognition in the world. Why do you suppose they made a car that more people could buy? So Buell scales down ONE bike. Big Deal. Mark | ||
| Steve_mackay |
By the same reasoning please explain why the Blast isn't down to about $299 retail? Sorry, did I miss a 5 off the end, or not! That's probably the most retarded statement I've ever seen here in Badweb.<sigh> Think about it with more than 3 brain cells. The Blast is roughly 1/2 the cost of an XB. Do you REALLY think it costs 1/2 as much to produce it? $1500 build cost including the toilet roll in the factory toilet. Senior managements cups of coffee. The whole nine yards. $1500 is what it costs to build a Blast. $1500? You have got to be kidding?!?! That bike wouldn't cost $1500 if it was made entirely in China. So..., since you seem to be the all knowing when it comes to manufacturing motorcycles, why don't you just go start your own motorcycle company, and cut Buell off at the knees with your superior knowledge?  | ||
| Eboos |
"Anonymous, your whole post seems like a refusal, thinly veiled as an excuse, not to reveal the stats." HE CAN'T!!! The speed at which he would get fired would be like moving back in time. | ||
| Court |
>>>I'm not stupid enough to see how smart Buell are at ripping off an unsuspecting public. Actually, you're making a very strong case to support that you are stupid enough. Buell doesn't make a frickin' red cent on the sale of a BLAST. The BLAST has a very interesting past and resulted, partially by plan partially unplanned, in the development of some new concepts at Buell and Harley-Davidson. This is, to me, a fairly uninteresting conversation full of rediculous claims. The idea that Buell is selling the BLAST at $4K with COGS of $1,500 would have them surpassing Harley-Davidson's record earnings. I'm betting if Buell were earning $2500/unit they'd dump the XB and divert all HD and Buell production resources to BLAST production. I'd forgotten just how much fun it was to set in the stairwells at KSU and listen to the stoned kids ramble. . . thanks for the memories. Court P.S. - I'd hear, and have absolutely no facts to back it up, tht 18% of the Crown Vic build comes to NYC as taxis and cop cars. There is also a special NYC edition of the Crown Vic that is 2" longer and used for cabs. | ||
| Kdan |
I'd forgotten just how much fun it was to set in the stairwells at KSU and listen to the stoned kids ramble. . . thanks for the memories. Someone recorded the Stoned Kids rambling at my school and used it for some kind of Psychology research paper. I was very famous that year. I don't think Rocket is stoned exactly. Just never took a business course. Or actually owned a business, or has a clue what it takes to run a business. | ||
| Warbaby |
Interesting thread! Not so much because it is revealing of Buell/HD economics, but rather because it is a study of delusion verses logic and everyone can see which camp you're in. I compliment you folks for being civilized about your different views (most message boards would have eviscerated someone by now). Although I am greatly tempted, I shall not!  Happy trails. | ||
| Swordsman |
I can't imagine Buell makes any profit at all on the Blast. From what (little) I've seen, the cheapest product in any line usually has a very minuscule profit margin. The Chevy Aveo is a good example... at the dealership my cousin works for, they practically sell them at cost just to say they're moving units. I think the Blast is intended to be like pot... it's a "gateway drug" into the rest of the Buell line. How many people (aside from EZblast) keep one for more than a year or two? Not many. But seems like a lot of Badwebbers had one as their first bike. And continuing the drug metaphor, they wouldn't really make profit off the 1st round, but off the returning customer. Again, I'm not into economics or privy to any info at all, just my take on it. ~SM | ||
| Nutsnbolt |
Wait... Did somebody say "pot?" Finally, this thread is getting onto something worth while.  Mark | ||
| Court |
>>>I think the Blast is intended to be like pot... it's a "gateway drug" into the rest of the Buell line. That's 42% of the BLAST strategy. The other was all business, stuff like doing purchase engineering ("where can we get better prices without sacrificing quality" - this, by the way does not mean "cheapo", in the case of Verlucchi it meant redesigning a vendors business practice, in addition Buell has pioneered fabrication techniques by partnering with vendors. Other brands of bikes have benefited from the work that Buell purchase engineers have done. . . can you say NISSIN?) in the very early stages of design and, in some cases, allowing design to be guided by purchasing. In addition, the BLAST was the first bike (don't let no one kid you) ever built by Harley-Davidson that HAD and ADHERED to a strict production plan and budget . . . THANK YOU LISA! The "value" of the BLAST lay not on $$ of profit but was the manufacturing equivalent of say . . . well tuition at Columbia.  There is much surrounding the BLAST to be revealed and I'd urge caution in taking the word of shade tree mechanics sitting in a pub. By the way . . why we are on the topic of "Gateway" commodities, how cool is it that there has been some many instances of folks trading their FXR and FLH for Ulysses? Wasn't the flow of traffic supposed to be from Buell TO Harley . . what do these folks know? Court | ||
| Davegess |
Rocket, your $1500 might just barely cover the cost of the parts in a Blast but I would be surprised even by that. I said 300 bucks profit Court says zip, he is probably correct. If you break even but can use them to keep the factory doors open so you can make XB's at a profit that would make sense. Companies do it all the time, it spreads of overhead cost out. You can see it in the Buell sales dollars, as the Blast units go down the sales dollars go up. And it is no coincidence that when Blast sales dropped Buell report a profit. Rocket you know how to run a business but you don't run a manufacturing plant. There is a big difference. Also I do wonder why you think a manufacturer would EVER reveal something as critical as the actual cost of making a product? they work hard to do better than the competition and would never, ever, reveal something that might give a competitor an edge. | ||
| Glitch |
Sean, regardless of what it costs to build a Blast, and how much it's sold for, we live in a Free Market Society, Buell can only charge what the market will bare. Simple as that. | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Rocket you know how to run a business but you don't run a manufacturing plant. There is a big difference. That's a MASSIVE understatement as well. As someone who DOES help run a manufacturing plant, I can honestly say Rocket has no clue how one runs. And the costs incurred in running one. | ||
| Xl1200r |
An H3 compared to a Tahoe is a cash cow, they the same chasis and drive train, would you pay 60k for a tahoe? Heeeere's your sign. A little off topic, but an H3 and a Tahoe are not on the same chassis - The H3 is on the GM small pickup chassis (Colorado, Canyon). The H2 is on the Tahoe chassis. And besides, being able to apply a new product to an existing "platform" does not make a cash cow. A cash cow is a product that has been around for a long time and development costs have sunk so low that the company doesn't need to improve on it (so long as they are already an industry leader). Tide laundry detergent is an example. Tide doesn't have to do much besides sell the stuff. The BLAST! cannot be a cash cow because it is a motorcycle. Consumers DEMAND improvements, and if there are no improvements, they demand a lower price, which of course eats into this venerable "bottom line" everyone likes to refer to. | ||
| Swordsman |
Ah, if Xl1200r's definition of "cash cow" is correct, then the Kawasaki Ninja 250 would have to be pictured under the entry.  What's it been, 20 years since it was last updated? However, that would contradict the his last statement about motorcycles, wouldn't it? Also, I think the Blast has only had one real update, which involved the swingarm oil gasket (correct me here, 'cuz I don't really know). Have they really done anything else to it since its introduction? That too would contradict the last statement. I don't think the Blast is a cash cow, but I do think a bike can be a cash cow. ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on January 29, 2007) | ||
| Brineusaf |
Next years new cash cow = Air. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
My local supermarket sells new budget DVD players for £17. Less than five years ago even the cheapest piece of budget crap DVD player cost upwards of £130. But the budget ones selling today are the latest up to date designs. They incorporate all the usual features of DVD players made today, and they're a quarter of the size of the first generation models. Truly amazing product from anyones perspective. Tell me anonymous, with all your manufacturer experience and know how, and you'd agree the £17 DVD is profitable, how is this possible? By the same reasoning please explain why the Blast isn't down to about $299 retail? Sorry, did I miss a 5 off the end, or not! Why are HD TVs down from $9,000 to $2,000? Why are CD players down to FREE vs. the $300 that they started with. Market demand drives some of it. What drives most of it is supply and component sourcing. Each successive producer has the ability to draw upon the skills and experience of previous or initial manufacturers. There are also R&D costs funded by the initial manufacturer that must be recovered. These are up front costs that must be recouped. Nearly all of the profits from the first several models sold goes to repay the development and R&D costs. As volume increases, the speed with which the initial expenditures is recouped increases. At some point in time that initial investment is reclaimed and the profit margins can be applied directly to profits. Subsequent manufacturers get to build on the R&D of other manufacturers as well as take advantage of volume component manufacturers. In the world of DVDs, drives, readers, chips, connections, cases, etc. are all available at much lower prices than initially. These same arguments are made against drug manufacturers. For every Viagara, there are 20 drugs that took as much time and expense to develop yet did not repay the initial R&D expense. The Blast, the XB, the whatever comes next will all follow this same process. The hope is that they will have a winner. Had the market not responded favorably to the Ulysses, BMC wouldn't be able to recoup the initial R&D expense of developing a new model. It's a crap shoot for the manufacturer. | ||
| Court |
We need, for those of us who've worked in financial cost accounting, to be a bit cautious with our nomenclature. SUNK - is an actual accounting term. You may look it up, but I'd use caution when using the term in conjunction with the word costs. When I see "sunk costs" I see those costs, like the monthly rent on the plant, that are necessary, yet unrelated to production volumes in the short run. EQUILIBRIUM - is where marginal costs and marginal revenue curves intersect. That plays into the determination, along with elasticity of demand, what price the market will bear. I'm getting a kick out of the TIDE example . . that's a great example of what "goodwill" would be to accountant. Some of you have surely seen this in today's news. . .
Buell is brilliantly executing a complex business plan at present . . . with all it's bumps, bruises and surprises. . . it's good enough to see production significantly increased and the company making a profit. Not, to those of us who have run our own businesses, a small task. Someone disagreeing with the design of the frame or the color of the tank neither makes it right or wrong. . . . it's opinion. | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
I'd appreciate it if some could stay in focus before flaming me. That's the funniest line ever!  | ||
| Nutsnbolt |
Yeah, this is one of those... "you, first" scenarios. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You tough to battle irrationality with rationality. What do you mean I can't have free healthcare? What do you mean my prescription isn't $12? $30,000 for a car? It should only cost $12,000. I'm glad to see entitlement is universal.  | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
$1500 - to me that sounds like less then 75 manhours. Not including the actual materials. Not including shipping. NO FREAKING WAY. I agree with the concensus, I doubt BMC makes squat on the blast. Yes, the cost of production on an item decreases over time. You seem to be under the assumption that the initial offering price turned a profit. I bet when it was first sold it was done so at a (slight) loss. Only after a period of time have they gotten to a point to recoup. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Ah, if Xl1200r's definition of "cash cow" is correct, then the Kawasaki Ninja 250 would have to be pictured under the entry. What's it been, 20 years since it was last updated? However, that would contradict the his last statement about motorcycles, wouldn't it? 2 things - while small, improvements have been made, however noticable they may be. Second - working off the second part of my statement, a new Ninja 250 is $3000, which means you can buy one for $2600 - no new features means lower price. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If you think Tide lacks innovation and investment, you are *sadly* mistaken. That is a seriously engineered product. The product is getting so good that they have engineering efforts around just the *containers* to help them survive against such an effective detergent. Your DVD is cheap Rocket because every year some supplier takes 8 of the chips that used to be used and combines them down to one chip. Likewise with the mechanical bits... one of about 3 suppliers that makes the mechanical assemblies for all bazillion DVD drives produced the world... with R&D costs sunk across the entire industry. So there ya go Rocket, simply take the internal combustion engine and make it cost half as much, weigh half as much, be half the size, and run at twice the speed, every 18 months. Then we can all make a fortune selling Blasts. | ||
| Nutsnbolt |
I always forget the name of that principle. I know it was created by the dude that worked for IBM back in the late 60's and 70's. Basically, in short, is was that every two years you should be able to double the amount of "transistors" or "resistors" or something, I just can't remember the exact verbage. We were almost at a stand still in that theory till 2 companies just a couple days ago announced that they came up with a way to keep that going. Dammit, I used to quote part of that principle back in college years ago for a paper I was doing. Ah, the days of being a naive 17 yr old Freshman. This was back when we actually USED FLOPPY DISKS. That was space-age back then. Someone knows what I'm talking about, the name of that principle, that is. Moore's Law. Dammit, I knew I'd remember it. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16839253/ Anyway... Yeah, if internal combustion engines were just like microchips, we'd all be riding on something like Rocket's "lighter" bike. mark | ||
| Cityxslicker |
And now how the motor company is getting more money from my pockets. The New Nightster.... I need those wheels, rear fender struts, belt guard, fork boots, & For my girlfriends bike, I need the rear fender, side mount plate, new wiring for the blinkers.... Thanks H-D . Waiting to see the next gotta have it from Buell  (New Model Images to large to load) www.harley-davidson.com / XL1200N Yet more reasons why it is never "cheap" to build your own. | ||
| Thespive |
Wow, look at the discussion I started. BTW, please refer to me as Sean and Rocket as Rocket from here on out, I don't want people to confuse us, no really, I don't. --The Other Sean (Message edited by thespive on January 29, 2007) | ||
| 45_degrees |
There's Moore's Law, and then there's Murphy's Law and how does Murphy's Law relate to BadWeb and Buell? Whatever can be bitched about will be bitched about. |
