| Author | Message | ||
     Spatten1 |
I've got a beautiful ETA movement Rolex Yachtmaster rep that I rarely wear because I don't like wearing a fake Rolex. It makes me self-consious. I bought it because it is so good looking and high-quality, but I can't get past the feeling self-consious about wearing a Rolex, genuine or replica. I do, however, love a high-quality time pieces and own two ETA driven automatics. Truth be told, they are much quieter than my Seiko "5" driven watches, but not much more accurate. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Corporate, The Caliber 5001 is absolutely stunning.  I haven't really ever paid much attention to it as the entry price is out of my budget. IWC makes the movement in house. That is part of the cost. As I mentioned, the Panerai is the only other one that I know that has a long reserve. The Panerai Manifattura: http://www.panerai.com/s_page.xpd?id_lingua=2&id_sezione=16&id_prodotto=5805&id_categoria=5784 It has an 8 hour reserve. Most modern watches are automatic. Therefore, long reserves are not required since they are continuously wound. Most modern watches have a 44-65 hour reserve. The Panerai contains the new P.2002 caliber which is the first true in-house movement. It is a manual wind, and, as such, offers an even more robust movement and greater water resistance. The Maniffatura offers the patented crown sealing mechanism that offers greater water resistance than the screw down crown alone. This is a very cool watch. I have only found it for around $11,000. At that price, you could get the IWC. I just haven't found that many long reserve watches. Why would you need one, btw? | ||
| Corporatemonkey |
Why would you need one, btw? Because I am an American dammit!!! Really nobody needs any of this, but I really like the design. After finding out how many watches share movements (eta). It is neat to think some manufactures actually go to the trouble of engineering there own. BTW I found a replica is this watch (japanese movement) for a reasonable amount. But for some reason I felt kinda sleezy for actually thinking about buying it. I did find out you can get them nib for ~$6-8k. Still expensive, but a lot less than msrp. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Monkey, Fake watches are not necessarily bad. They are just, well, fake! I don't think there is a problem wearing one. You just need to ask yourself why you are wearing it. If you are wearing it to impress others, wear it proudly and don't worry about whether it's fake or not. Most people who would be impressed couldn't tell a fake from the real thing. If you aren't trying to impress anyone, you can buy great watches with great movements that aren't that expensive. You could get a great watch with a great story and really impress people. I have heard of folks who own the original but buy a good fake to wear where they would be afraid to wear the original. I usually wear the good watches in safe places and no watch or a cheap watch where I would be afraid to lose or damage it. If you want a high end watch, save up and buy it. If you want a great watch but don't want to spend as much, there are great watches to be had. That is what is great about watches. If you start with a quality Swiss or Japanese mechanical movement, you really can't go wrong! | ||
| Spatten1 |
New ETA movement on EBAY for under $50: http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-Swiss-Eta-2836-2-wat ch-movement-Rolex-Tudor_W0QQitemZ130056500317QQihZ 003QQcategoryZ10363QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem | ||
| Spatten1 |
I'd feel foolish buying a watch with a $40 wholesale movement for thousands of dollars. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Wow Spatten, that's a pretty blanket statement. I supposed all V-8 engines are exactly the same. You might find this interesting: The World’s Most Accurate and Precise Movement Revealed It becomes clear that virtually all mechanical movements gaining COSC chronometer certificates are what the industry calls "tracteurs" — the 28,800 v/h workhorses such as the Rolex 3035, ETA’s 2892 and Valjoux 7750. But the essential question hanging on the lips of the few readers still struggling to keep awake is: "What is the best-performing caliber of them all?" Watchbore asked the person most likely to know, Mr Jean-Pierre Curchod, former dean of the Geneva Watchmaking School, president of the Swiss Society of Chronometry and director of the Geneva laboratory of COSC. For an official institution to reveal this information would throw the entire watch industry in disarray. To hold up one movement as superior to all the others would deflate the bubble of myth that sustains the tightly linked cartel of brands. Therefore, according to COSC, all chronometers are equal, and if any are more equal than others, it’s a state secret. What makes the chronometer? Watchbore put the question to COSC’s managing director, Mr Pierre-Yves Soguel. For the best chance of passing the test, the movement has to be conceived and engineered from the outset as a chronometer, he explains. It’s all in the design, construction and especially in the machining of the parts. The most precise machine tools are only viable in high-volume production, which explains why the mass-produced tracteurs are consistently chronometers. According to Mr Curchod, good lubrication is also an essential attribute of the COSC chronometer. Free-sprung or indexed balances, Breguet or flat springs, coaxial or lever escapements or tourbillons make little or no difference to performance in the COSC test. "It’s the quality of workmanship throughout the movement rather than any single feature that makes a movement accurate and reliable." What about those expensive, lovingly handcrafted crafted, pursuit-of-perfection in-house movements? It is possible for such movements to reach chronometer standard, acknowledges Mr Curchod, but at the cost of much expensive and time-consuming tweaking. "It is more difficult and the failure rates are high — as much as 60%." Just because a base movement may be inexpensive doesn't mean that it can't be enhanced to exceed even the heralded Rolex movements. I can guarantee that you can't get the top of the line performance tuned ETA movement for $40. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Rolex watch Caliber specification and year introduced: 3035 Date/Datejust/Submariner - 1977 3075 GMT II/ Explorer II - 1981 3085 GMT - 1977 3055 Day-Date - 1977 3000 Non Date - 1990 3135 Date/Datejust/Submariner - 1988 3175 GMT II/ Explorer II - 1988 3185 GMT - 1988 3155 Day-Date - 1988 3100 Air King/Sub non-date 2235 early 2000 in the lady Datejust 4155 starting in the 2001 day/date 4130 in house Daytona movement starting in the late A serial number 2000 With the Caliber 3000 in current production since 1990, you might also find this wonderful "piece" interesting: http://www.timezone.com/library/horologium/horolog ium631675591245315012 I wouldn't want to overpay for an underperforming movement as well as not just assume that because it carries a particular NAME that it means quality  (Message edited by ft_bstrd on December 13, 2006) | ||
| Spatten1 |
I understand that a new Rolex will be very dailed-in out of the box and run many years without a service. I said I'd feel foolish buying an ETA driven watch for thousands of dollars, I did not say a Rolex. Therefore it was not such a blanket statement. Would you agree with the following: Getting a good watchsmith to service a new basic ETA 2800 series watch can get you dialed in, clean, and oiled for another $50-$100 over the base watch price of a couple hundred bucks? Then you are up to $250 to $300 bucks with a fully serviced watch that will run very well for many years. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Would you agree with the following: Getting a good watchsmith to service a new basic ETA 2800 series watch can get you dialed in, clean, and oiled for another $50-$100 over the base watch price of a couple hundred bucks? Then you are up to $250 to $300 bucks with a fully serviced watch that will run very well for many years. A watch with an ETA or Valjoux movement can be had in the $500-$1000 territory. The greatest price of a watch is not necessarily the movement any more than the price of an engine and transmission is the greatest part of a car cost. The most basic movement cleaned, oiled, and "dialed in" will only get you a clean, oiled and dialed in basic movement. It can not run or be any better than it started. Think of it like a Chevy short block V-8. The same engine can be thrown into a pick-up truck. It will run, be fairly dependable, provide good horsepower, and have fairly good gas mileage. With some tuning, that engine is now suitable for use in a passenger car like an Impala, with a little more tuning, that engine can be used in a Corvette, and with a little more tuning, that engine can compete in auto races. It's the same engine base, but the performance modifications you make change the performance. ETA and Valjoux movements are exactly the same. The movement you showed in the eBay auction was one of the most basic ETA movements available. There didn't appear to be any performance enhancements. Whereas, if you buy a Panerai, Breitling, etc., you are getting the equivalent of the high end racing Corvette engine in that it has been tuned to perform to meet COSC accuracy requirements and has the certificate to match. That was what I meant by "blanket statement". You appeared to impugne all ETA watch movements and that only in-house movements were quality or were worth the price. As you can see from the Caliber 3000 write-up, even "high end" watch movements can be of questionable performance and quality. I seriously doubt that ANY manufacturer would accept an ETA or Valjoux movement as meeting QA requirements if it arrived in the same shape as the CAL 3000 movement described. I too like the in-house movements, but I am not willing to pay three times the price for an in-house movement that performs the same or worse or comes with lower quality standards. That was my point. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Very good points, well written. | ||
| Swordsman |
Holy crap... I can't believe this is still going. Shouldn't this be moved to General Discussion? It's has not one thing to do with motorcycles, despite the title. ~SM | ||
| Freezerburn |
This time of year it is nice to have some fresh discussion. It is a long time till July and all this talk of fine time pieces makes the time go faster. Kinda like owning a watch that can alter the space-time continuum. | ||
| Diablobrian |
I had that space-time folding feature on my last imitation timex. It got broken during my big crash. I lost most of 3 days when it happened. I wish I would have discovered the function before the crash! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Swordsman, Here is the commonality. Gear heads are gear heads. It doesn't matter whether it's a dog ring or a micro rotor, we love mechanical things. Is it so strange? | ||
| Ulywife |
F_b - PM re: MBIV sent - sorry for the sidebar!  This has been an interesting thread. My parents bought me a Longines several years ago. It's 14K, all other finishes I wear completely through even if they aren't necessarily cheap watches. I've had the inner works replaced once. Hope these hold out for a while longer! It's interesting to see the other interest BadWebbers have. | ||
| Midknyte |
Gear heads are gear heads. Yes It's interesting to see the other interest BadWebbers have. And yes. It's either this or another dog thread... | ||
| Rigman |
 | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I guess we could combine the dog and watch threads:  | ||
| Freezerburn |
You're spot on with that one... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I couldn't let it slip over the edge now could I? | ||
| Buellshyter |
It's TIME for this thread to die...lmao | ||
| Jandj_davis |
I have another question for Fat. I just picked up my great-grandfathers Elgin pocket watch. I don't know anything about elgin, except they have been out of business since the 60's. The watch is in pretty poor shape (hands missing, front crystal broken, doesn't tick when wound) and I was wondering if you could tell me if this is a watch worth repairing. I will ask a few local watch shops for estimates, but thought I would ask you first. The fact that it is a 4th generation heirloom makes me want to fix it up, but only if it will be cost effective. Not that I would sell it, I just don't want to put big money on a watch that is only worth pennies to my children. I'll get you more info on it if you want it. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
JandJ, Most of the Elgin watches are worth preserving. I don't think I have seen many that were just junk. The additional family history adds to the need for restoration as well. Hands missing and broken crystal are really no big issue. Those are easily replaced. The reason it doesn't tick is that the balance wheel and escapement mechanism aren't moving. This could be a result of a couple of things. There could be rust inside the watch restricting movement. Some of the jeweled bearings could be broken as well. The hairspring in the balance wheel could be damaged or broken preventing the balance wheel from spinning. The mainspring could be broken. Most Master Clock Makers who would be able to do the repair can manufacture both springs in house. The hairspring is basically a thin wire that expands and contracts as the balance wheel spins back and forth. Here is a great article on hairsprings: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tp178.com/jd/watch-school/6/hairspring-021s.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tp178.com/jd/watch-school/6/article.html&h=450&w=600&sz=27&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=xoC98lFh6LHBoM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhairspring%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG The mainspring is basically a flat ribbon of metal:  The rust and broken bearings can be corrected as well. I would say you are probably in for at least $150-350 for a good repair and assuming that nothing else is broken. The last link is for a very cool book created by Elgin in the 50's. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://elginwatches.org/help/what_is_a_watch_images/11_balance_hairspring.png&imgrefurl=http://elginwatches.org/help/what_is_a_watch.html&h=159&w=200&sz=7&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=yXKTQ2AxUe1o7M:&tbnh=83&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhairspring%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG | ||
| Jandj_davis |
Fat - Thanks for the response. I did a little research with the serial number from the movement, and it was made in 1912. I also have the original Hickock fob, which I am hoping I can get serviced as well. Thanks for the encouragement. I am going to take it in for an estimate today. I'll let you know how it goes. For fun, here are a few ebay links to watches with the same movement. http://tinyurl.com/ydjd33 http://tinyurl.com/ybjok9 | ||
| Xl1200r |
Some really pretty pieces in this thread... it's funny to see some of the very typical designs of these watches for thier given era. I have always been partial to Bell & Ross, especially the Instrument series. Clean, simple to look at, and as a budding pilot, the style is just spot on for me. And at around $2500-4000, the price ain't that bad either compared to some other brands. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
X, B&R is a great brand. They are one of the largest users of the Lemania 5100 movement for their chronographs. Many Pilot driven brands have chosen this movement due to the fact that it has been shown to absorb up to 9 G's with no change in accuracy. Some countries require that this movement be available for official issue to pilots due to the G load capacity. Sinn and Fortis also use this movement and are used for official military issue. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I discovered a new fact. The Swiss watch control group changed the indications on dials. Prior to the removal of Tritium from normal manufacture, watchmakers indicated the use of Luminova as a marker illuminator with the letter (L) and Tritium with the letter (T). After tritium use was discontinued, the (T) marking was used to indicate "Superluminova". The new luminova charges in 20-60 seconds and lasts for 6-8 hours. So if you have a new watch that has "T Swiss Made T" on the dial, your watch will contain the use of "Superluminova". You learn something new every day! | ||
| Rocketman |
Ft_B, do you know how to tell which direction is north using a watch and the sun? I think I do but I'll let you go first just in case I'm wrong and you know, lol. Rocket | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I do not. I've heard you can, but I don't know. I usually just look at the GPS. |
