| Author | Message | ||
     Jackbequick |
I'm glad to start hearing from some more of the "it ain't broken, don't fix it" folks here. If you want an example of what would happen if you tried to stay with the present large displacement V-twin and add water cooling look at the V-Rods and use your imagination. There are many, many more things and pieces that have to be accommodated, stuffed in, wrapped around, etc. And that will complicate what is now a fairly simple mechanism, make it more expensive, and make it harder for me to work on. The wide power/torque band and general tractability of the H-D v-twin is what makes it a joy to ride with America's good roads and wide open spaces. The simplicity and practicality of doing most of your own maintainance is a thing of joy to many of us. The engine lends itself to improvement and general tinkering if you want to get more power out of it. I think it was a stroke of genius that the MoCo acquired Buell and broadened their customer base. It was a win win deal for everyone. If any of this some day culminates in H-D making HoKaSuYa-like motorcycles I can be philosophical about that. But it shouldn't be done by moving away from or abandoning the thing that is working now. Jack | ||
| Blackxb9 |
Yes H-D takes pride in their heritage but evolution does happen. Remember they didn't invent the wheel or the motorcycle and H-D does a good job at taking the ideas of others and incorporating into their mold while sticking to their heritage. I can tell you it will be something very different in 08 for H-D and i'm not talking about cooling of the engine. Follow the bread crumbs... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Go Wankel!!!!!!!!!   | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
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| Daves |
anyone besides me that thinks the biggest detriment to the "Wankel" engine was/is the name?  | ||
| Slaughter |
Dunno, If HD is selling their butts off, why should they produce "just another" streetbike. Yeah, the pushrod/air-cooled gig works for a small audience but if they make good profit doing it, why change? It is the height of arrogance to claim that a new generation is going to be the death of HD because this new generation will not buy HD products because they must have (fill in the blank) engines/chassis. HD has survived 100 years and profits are still high. If they do come out with a liquid cooled streetbike, good on 'em. If not, good on 'em. I'm not holding my breath either way. | ||
| Glitch |
Funny, I didn't know Erik was in the engine business. I thought he was in the motorcycles business. Since he's not in the engine business, I'll bet he does the best he can with what he has, just like he's always done. | ||
| Whodom |
Dave, You're not the only one. From wikipedia: ----- Trivia "Wankel Rotary Engine" is a phrase included in a Monty Python audio sketch, titled "Are You Embarrassed Easily?" on Monty Python's Previous Record (1972). It is here considered to sound rude due to the word "Wankel," which sounds dirty but is actually a name of a person. In Dutch the word "wankel" means unstable, unsettled, tottering, waddling, toddling, staggering, rickety, labile, which does not help selling this type of engine in Dutch speaking regions. ------- (The first thing I thought of when I read your post was the Monty Python sketch). | ||
| Glitch |
biggest detriment to the "Wankel" engine was/is the name? And the gas mileage sucked | ||
| Davidh72z |
Sorry to dissappoint everyone but HD has a watercooled bike. It is called the VRod. | ||
| Brucelee |
"HDs have ... used outdated technology forever" I couldn't disagree more strongly. If simplicity and ease of maintenance is low tech and peak HP/cc is your only measure of technology, then I guess you may be right. I couldn't disagree more strongly. In fact, I think the opposite is true. Any good engineer will tell you that the most simple design that gets the job done is the more elegant and advanced one. I agree with this statement totally. Clean and simple to get the job done. Lets face it, most of us can't actually ride our XB's up to their potential as it is now. Do I really need any more HP? NO. On the other hand, I sat on a new HD Dyna the other day. Man, that is just about the coolest looking bike to me. I love the whole 96 inches thing and FI to boot. And the fit and finish was fantastic. I saw myself with a bag on back, screen on front riding across the US on that one. I can see that bad boy in the garage next to the XB, which will always be there! | ||
| Daves |
which Dyna model were you looking at Bruce? | ||
| Bigwagon |
Something that continues to amaze me in discussions about engine technology is how few people realize that the real technology is not in the valvetrain configuration or the location of the camshafts, but in the application of extremely high-tech development tools and manufacturing processes that allow seemingly "low-tech" engines like air-cooled V-Twins and pushrod V-8 engines like GM LS-series to meet all current emissions standards, get excellent fuel mileage, and meet the performance parameters set by their manufacturers. | ||
| Blake |
which Dyna model were you looking at Bruce?... | ||
| Brucelee |
"which Dyna model were you looking at Bruce?... " Just the base dyna glide model, listing at nearly $13K. Beautiful burgundy paint job, clean and uncluttered. Gorgeous to my eye! I understand the torque on this new motor is the bomb! | ||
| Daves |
Blake, Who? Me?  Bruce My GM has a 07 FLHTCU and it has the street legal SE pipes, SE air cleaner and it is putting out 77 hp and 92.78 lbs of Tq | ||
| Blake |
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| Swordsman |
Heh, I LOVE that Wankel motor! Looks like a jet engine! "Hey baby, wanna' come hop on my Wankel and go for a ride?" ~SM | ||
| Yohinan |
Does no one here work on cars? Everyone only works on motorcycles?  | ||
| Skully |
I really don't understand the infatuation with water cooling. Is water cooling really that modern? A motorcycle built in 1894 by Hildebrand & Wolfmueller was credited with having water cooling. There may have been others but this is what a quick Google search turned up. So what is considered modern and/or technical? What is it that we Buellers consider modern? In the end, I agree with Blake: specify what you want the motor to do and let the engine experts determine what the best platform is. | ||
| Socalbueller |
Something that continues to amaze me in discussions about engine technology is how few people realize that the real technology is not in the valvetrain configuration or the location of the camshafts, but in the application of extremely high-tech development tools and manufacturing processes that allow seemingly "low-tech" engines like air-cooled V-Twins and pushrod V-8 engines like GM LS-series to meet all current emissions standards, get excellent fuel mileage, and meet the performance parameters set by their manufacturers. One big difference is GMs LS-series engines can compete with the high performance engines of the world and HD can not. | ||
| Bigwagon |
Define "compete." If sales are a metric, I'd say they are competing just fine. | ||
| Midknyte |
What is it that we Buellers consider modern? At this point? Materials and processes. | ||
| Blake |
"One big difference is GMs LS-series engines can compete with the high performance engines of the world and HD can not." You mean like how the H-D engined Buell XBRR cannot compete? Like when it won the recent race at Magny Cours against the Ducati 999R's and Aprilia RSV-1000R's and even a Honda CBR1000RR? Or are you referring to the XBRR's first ever race where it won against a full on Ducati 999R superbike? Or maybe you are referring to the Buell XB12R's inability to sweep the ASRA Thunderbike national championship? Or maybe you are talking about the XR750's inability to compete in dirt track racing?  That Japan Inc propaganda is some powerful stuff. | ||
| Mr_cuell |
No he's probably referring to every McWilliams DNF of this past season. Remember those? | ||
| Rocketman |
Not to nit pick Blake but you're spouting propaganda too. 'Full on Superbike' is a little short of the measure in reality. What you mean is American full on Superbike - and not even close to the donkey Hodgson's ridden all season in AMA. Come on. Tell it like it is. Rocket | ||
| Kowpow225 |
As with any good argument either side of the fence will do here. I can see it both ways especially in the engine department. One one hand, these engines are VERY advanced for what they are. Aircooled pushrod 45 deg. V-Twin. Ducatis own SS1000 has a very similar engine to the Buell and it is putting out within 5hp + or - and at the same time spinning within 500 rpms, again + or -, of the xb9. What's not to love about that? Ducati isn't doing it any better than Buell. But these engines are terrible.....BAH!  And then there's the other side of the fence.... The Buell is in dire need of a new powerplant because first it doesn't rev high enough. REVS = POWER. Second it still relies on air cooling which limits the design of the engine right off the bat such as compression. And third the ever elusive horsepower figure some of us obsess over. I see it this way. The thing I love about this bike is the same thing I sometimes dislike. The engine. But if you were to water cool the Buell and make it spin to 9 Grand, and then squeeze every available h.p. out of that configuration,WOULD IT STILL BE A BUELL? | ||
| Daves |
It would still be a Buell, just different from past Buells. | ||
| Elvis |
I love Buells . . . doesn't mean I can't also love Ducatis. I love air-cooled V-twins . . . doesn't mean I can't also love water-cooled V-twins. I kind of doubt this is true, but if it is, I don't see how anyone could see it as anything other than GREAT news for Buell fans. Did the introduction of the V-Rod (like it or not) somehow make the Sportster less of a bike? I think the key phrase is this: "But the chance of an all American motorcycle racing competitively in both the AMA and World Superbike series in the future will surely add luster to the category. . . " If you like the sound of that, then you better hope there's at least some truth to this rumor, because that's never going to happen without a major re-design (and that probably includes water-cooling). Like it or not, there's not an air-cooled engine in existence that can come close to competing at the highest levels within the rules. Do I need a Superbike to pick up a gallon of milk? No . . . but I don't see any sense in getting upset about a rumor that Buell may be looking into creating one. | ||
| Ducxl |
With reference to the "H-D workers vote no" thread and where it has gone,the Japanese do a more efficient job at producing motorcycles.They produce them cheaper too.And their cycles MORE efficiently produce power as well.Sure,we can't "use" all of the 150 hp a GSXR1000 makes,but really,how many here would turn down a good Ferrarri or Lambo because "hey,i couldn't fully utilize all that power".If YOU really are into the world market,you MUST sell your Buell for a Jap bike. Me,i'm sticking with Buell and my foolish attempt at keeping my fellow American(Buell assembler) clothed and fed. A Buell IS NO SUPERBIKE.But i always knew that and am satisfied with both my Buells. Which,BTW are now only Chinese bikes Assembled by Americans.Just like those t-shirts mentioned in the "H-D workers vote no" thread. And i like my watercooler 996 too Hope i wasn't too "hateful",or my views "unfortunate" (Message edited by ducxl on October 21, 2006) (Message edited by ducxl on October 21, 2006) |
