| Author | Message | ||
     Daves |
First off I think the Victory is a nice bike. I rode one of the very early prototypes back in 98 I think it was. I rode one of the Ness inspired ones in Vegas last Jan. It is a good looking bike, handles like crap but that isn't the brands fault, it is because of the HUGE back tire that seems to be the demand these days. Even HD went to a 200 on some models. Like it or not HD has the cruiser market. Period. The others have been playing catch up for what, 20 years now? Many have come and gone. None have been a serious challenge to HD. Not saying they never will be but it sure isn't now. HD makes a great bike. I have 64,000 miles on my 1999 FLHT so far and it has broke down once,yes once. At 48,612 miles a crank positioning sensor went bad. That is it. I ride the piss out of it too so it is not like it has lead a sheltered life. Olin, HD only makes 4 bikes that are over 22,000.00 so I have no idea where you are coming up with your 25-30,000? The 4 that are are all Screaming Eagle limited edition bikes with 110 Cu In motors and every bit of chrome goodies you can put on a bike. They are SE Ultra Classic touring bike 33,495.00 http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/CVOs/2007/2007_cvo.jsp?locale=e n_US SE Road King 28,495.00 SE Springer Softail 24,995.00 SE Super Glide 24,995.00 You can get a brand new 2007 FXDWG Dyna Wide Glide for 16795.00 2007 FXSTC Softail Custom 16895.00 Harley is Un-original? Baahahahahahahahahahaha Oh, it's much more original to copy like Polaris,Honda,Kawasaki,Yamaha have all done. Yeah, right? I'm sorry Olin but that is just funny.  | ||
| Tpoppa |
Polaris/Victory is a well run organization. I would love to see a liquid cooled sportbike from them. Might put some pressure on HD to let Buell go to liquid cooling. <<begin>> BTW, I am Sooo sick of hearing hearing people say that liquid cooling 'clutters the look' or 'complicates the design.' That arguement may carry some weight in the form-over-function, boutique cruiser market. But sportbikes are about function, performance, and innovation. I really like the motor in my XB9S, and would love to see a liquid cooling added to Buell's line-up. <<end>> | ||
| Bads1 |
Xring Cycleworld did report that Victory had bought KTM but in a small artical in the next issue I believe tear-offs the deal fell through but the relationship is still there. I need to find the artical. | ||
| Midknyte |
I am Sooo sick of hearing hearing people say that liquid cooling 'clutters the look' or 'complicates the design.' especially when we all know that Erik would do "his way". when it happens, it'll be clean, and I'm sure we'll like it. | ||
| Court |
Dave: Thanks for the Ultra Classic link.....NOT. I am fighting a JONES | ||
| Court |
Harley-Davidson's ARE the originals and appear, judging by the fact that they continue to sell each and every one they can make (the textbook definition of "equilibrium" in a pricing strategy) and folks continue asking for more. Polaris, and I wrote about this several years ago, is an exceedingly well managed company and has done some amazing things...regardless of what you think of their motorcycles or styling. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Different strokes, folks! I personally wouldn't be caught dead driving a Buick (until I had collected my first Social Security check). That said, Buicks have been selling pretty well lately. Someone must like them. There are countless HD knock offs from just about every major manufacturer. Now that so many others have copied HD, you want HD, THE ORIGINAL, to change? How does that make sense? Polaris moving to a water cooled is moving farther away from the HD/Buell copy and more toward the rest of the market. WHY DO YOU WANT BUELL TO MOVE THE WAY OF OTHER WATER COOLED V-TWINS (or even I-4s)? If you want a 90 degree v-twin, buy a Ducati. If I had wanted a Ducati, I would have bought one. Like a Buick, I have no desire to ride and Ultra Classic Couch (until after I have collected my first Social Security check), but I don't lament the couch being air cooled or not being my style. If you want water cooled, buy something else.  | ||
| Yohinan |
It's happening. You will see the water cooling in due time. Now remember I am not saying exactly when, but it will happen with our Buell's. | ||
| Swordsman |
I think maybe a few of you misunderstood Olin on the "unoriginal" bit. The way I hear it, he's complaining that H-D hasn't really updated their "look". I'll agree with him there (with the single exception of the V-rod). "Unoriginal" in their lack of stylistic development. With all the goodies attached, it's hard to tell a new H-D cruiser from one that's 30 years old, maybe even older. Then again, maybe I'm reading that all wrong? On the water cooling issue, I really don't have an opinion. I'm still not sure what water cooling is even supposed to accomplish (please don't explain it, I'm sure the answer is around here somewhere already). If they make one, that's fine, I'm sure it'll rock. I don't think I'd buy one though, just because it's one less thing for me to fool with... I'm terrible at keeping up with my maintenence already! ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on October 19, 2006) | ||
| Teddagreek |
 This is my Dads Bike he Got it for just under 14K... Who copied Who? What about Indian? BMW? And Many others. Lets see 100Cubic Inches, 6 Speed, 4-valves per head.. And they were able to make it Air Oil Cooled.. Plus they are American Made... I didn't buy a buell because I like harleys.. I bought it because it was a very interesting and different bike.. | ||
| Daves |
Yep, HD knock off. Looks like a cross between a Road King and a Heritage Softail. Complete with belt drive and 5 speed trans Not saying it is a bad bike. Just not very "original"  | ||
| Daves |
ps, how does Dad like it? | ||
| Teddagreek |
loves it.. He says it rides just as nice as his BMW touring bike he had. My only problem with it is, the old man won't let me ride it. | ||
| Olinxb12r |
You are exactly correct Swordsman. I'm talking about the fact that HDs have looked the same and used outdated technology forever, the VRod is the exception. (I was incredibly surprised when the made it) HD gets credit for being the original bike, but there are lots of companies that were first that didn't progress. AOL, K-Mart, and Betamax anyone? Sure AOL and K-Mart are still around, but their market share is terrible. If HD hadn't been around for 100+ years and they didn't have the yuppie trailor queens polishing the chrome every night they would be belly up by now. I think it is great that HD has the brand loyalty that they do, but I'm also pretty dissappointed in the American consumer because of that statement. If Americans were not so loyal to HD the AMF days would have killed that company for sure. Some HDs are cool, but they have become the republican of motorcycles and that is just sad! Sorry I'm off on the prices by a little, but not much. The reason I say that is because to compare apples to apples a comparable HD model would have to be a Screamin Eagle. I've seen those models that cost 14k, and they don't look anything like my friends Vegas that cost 15k new. His Vegas has all the power and chrome upgrades you get with the Screamin Eagle, but not the 25k price tag. HD rapes their customers for the cool bikes and the customers thank them for it by replacing every single bolt with overpriced chrome. What a racket. Like I said, no offense it's just my opinion. (Message edited by Olinxb12r on October 19, 2006) | ||
| Olinxb12r |
Court you can not use standard equilibrium pricing models with luxury items because they have inelastic demand. Luxury items do not follow the same rules that regular items do because the demand is not nearly as effected by a higher price point. The interesting part when we are talking about HD is that this status is exactly the opposite of what the "original" HD customer was. Again HD has moved from the liberal bad ass machine of choice to the yuppie luxury item status symbol that in most cases sits in a garage and is cleaned more than riden. It's just disgusting. (Message edited by Olinxb12r on October 19, 2006) | ||
| Daves |
That's why I pointed out the Wide Glide and Softail Custom. Both come pretty much chromed out The Softail has a 200 rear tire(about as wide as you want to go if you want to actually ride the bike anywhere) and are only about 15-1800.00 more than the Vegas. Have you looked at these 2 bikes? They are pretty nice for well under 20,000.00 Waaaayy under your original price statement We sell lot's of them If you want something like Tedda's Dad got but don't want to spend a bunch of money you can get a FLHT for 16095.00 for a 2007 with a FI 96" motor, 6 speed and a 2 year unlimited mile warranty Yeah, HD has "raped" 300,000 new bike buyers PER YEAR. Get real? I get it, you don't like HDs, I accept that and that is your decision. No problem with me. But to think there are over 300,000 people PER YEAR that are willing to get "raped" on price is just not true. They are buying the HDs for whatever reasons they want to. You may not agree with or understand those reasons but that does not change the numbers. How many bikes did Polaris sell last year? Again, I am not saying the Polaris is a bad bike, I actually feel it's a pretty good bike. I am sure the people that ride them like them. If they could get as much for their bike as HD can do you really think they are selling it for less because they are just being nice? | ||
| Slaughter |
Tul-aris! (well, it WAS Polaris-powered!)  | ||
| Olinxb12r |
I hope that is the direction that HD continues to go in the future. My generation is not nearly as impressed with the HD status symbol, so it will take bikes like the one you are talking about to get a majority of 20 somethings to buy HD as we start riding cruisers. Again, no offense, and I appreciate all of the things you do for the Buell community. | ||
| Jackbequick |
Geez you guys, lighten up! This is like picking underwear or maybe even a wife. Don't pick the stuff you don't like, it is that simple. Buy whatever blows your skirt up. But why does anyone else have to be stupid or wrong for liking and buying something else? Or for not building and selling now what you think you might like to buy maybe someday? And I'm getting tired of hearing that I bought a H-D because I wanted or needed a status symbol. I like the thing for what it is. Warts and all if you see some there. I don't see any! I think your wife is ugly, her breath stinks, she picks her nose, and your kids are ill mannered. You should have married someone else. But why would I want to alienate you by telling you anything that silly? If you want to buy a bike that is unlike the H-D's, go buy one! There are a bunch of them around. Don't try to tell me that H-D has to be changed to meet your requirements. If the 20 somethings look around in 40 years or so and can't find a bike they like, I'd be very surprised. And wouldn't it be funny if they wanted a large displacement cruiser like today's H-D's and couldn't fine one? Jack | ||
| Jtylr50 |
I think that harley can see the handwriting on the wall , and they know that their future and ours will be liquid cooled. also guys it has nothing to do with our preference but a matter of survival to meet govt restrictions.one nice thing however is that we are getting good bikes that will run circles around its ancestors stock for stock,thats not a bad thing. | ||
| Percyco |
"I think that harley can see the handwriting on the wall , and they know that their future and ours will be liquid cooled" Part of the draw to H-D AND Buell is the air cooled V-twin . I think the handwriting is on the wall alright. And it says H-D is the biggest selling cruiser manufacture on earth. And they have increased profits every quarter for the past 20 years ! Gee......I guess they better change to water cooled.......}NOT  | ||
| Jtylr50 |
Dont misunderstand my point i am a very avid fan of harley and buells air cooled offerings ,and own both a harley and a buell but they are having to perform more and more acrobatics with lean air fuel ratios o2 sensors in our pipes charcoal canisters etc to meet ever tightening regulations. so therefore the motor company is begininning to put out new models.personally I think we are going to get it like it or not, hd is has been pretty smart with what they are putting out keeping the air cooled machines we all like but also presenting what the future will hold. Todate the new models have not been to everyones taste but well built and faster than any air cooled bike stock for stock. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
HD and Buell EXCEEDS all required FUTURE emissions AS THEY ARE right NOW. That dog don't hunt! We can do it all without a catalytic converter. Who wants a world with ONLY in-line fours? I sure as hell don't. I'm no fan of HD bikes. It doesn't mean that I won't be later. I'm just not one right now. What, do you think everyone should have a Gold Wing? Do you think all bikes should be like a GW? When I'm old and fatter, I will look even more like a monkey humping a football on an in-line four repli-racer. I sure as hell hope other options are available. Just when you think we have progressed forward and all bikes are moving toward the modern, some reject gives us this:  Or loses a fortune trying to bring us this:  Bikes are so much more than just technology. I, as many others, bought my Buell because it was the perfect marriage of high tech and old tech. I could have purchased a completely modern bike with more horsepower, higher top ends, and better acceleration. I was willing to sacrifice peak performance for personal experience and uniqueness. I'm not the only one to make this decision. Buyers of HDs are no different. | ||
| Jtylr50 |
I totally agree with everything you said I am by no means advocating doing anything to mess up what we all like about our rides.I for one am no fan of goldwings or inline fours,I am a true fan of the air cooled v twin format and am really high on my firebolt wouldnt change it for the world but at some point we are going to get squeezed by all of this noise and emission stuff dont you agree?If I had my way I wouldnt change the platform at all. I hope our beloved vtwins stay around forever I just hope they dont get legislated out of existince. | ||
| Diablobrian |
ooh ooh I have a tularis pic too! Here it is at Daytona  | ||
| Court |
Trying to have a speculative discussion about what Buell will do in the future and using what others have traditionally done in the past, or are doing now, tends, I think, to get folks looking for the ball under the wrong cup. Erase your slate......then think. I, just personally, have a tough time envisioning the pinnacle of Erik Buell's engineering career being the successful recreation of something someone else did 5 years ago. No one is standing at the finish line of the next Buell project holding a sign that says "Congrats....you've finally equaled the Japanese". Innovation, creativity and what's needed will eclipse wants wanted. | ||
| Blake |
"HDs have ... used outdated technology forever" I couldn't disagree more strongly. If simplicity and ease of maintenance is low tech and peak HP/cc is your only measure of technology, then I guess you may be right. I couldn't disagree more strongly. In fact, I think the opposite is true. Any good engineer will tell you that the most simple design that gets the job done is the more elegant and advanced one. FYI: HD was using 4-valve over-head cams back in the 1920's. | ||
| Ironheadsporty |
I cant see why harley would change its design... mines from 1970... but you can buy a new model, almost an exact replica, minus the motor. But you would have a new bike that looks classic and you dont have the problems of an older bike... believe me i should know... mine is almost 37 years old. | ||
| Mikexlr650 |
when did water cooling become modern? last i checked my buddies model-t was "liquid cooled". four valve heads, overhead cams, etc, this technology is roughly a century old, time for something new. i'm willing to bet they are looking a little further ahead than we may realize. | ||
| Ironheadsporty |
plus you add liquid cooling to a buell, with all that weight.... say goodbye to owning the corners! just my 2 cents |
