| Author | Message | ||
     S320002 |
I'm not sure Buell has missed the target by too far. Read the Editors' Notes in the 12/02 Cycle World test of the XB9S. Magazine editors are notoriously jaded when it comes to bikes, especially American made bikes. These guys actually seem to like the Lightning. Will wonders never cease? Greg | ||
| Prof_Stack |
As the guy who started this thread, and also the guy who today traded his Blast in for a XB9S, and the guy who has owned a big twin for ten years ('89 FLHS, and the wife won't let me sell it), let me say that the motor in the XB is not a "lump" and is quite adequate for this bike. Even in keeping it under 3k, the motor is very strong. Who gives a crap if a ZX-6R has 123hp at 355lbs? Not me. Thank you, Erik Buell. Nicely done. | ||
| Rick_A |
I perused that book Blake. Great book...and the first Harley book I've seen with a proper Buell section. ...and how much motor do you need in a 250 sized frame?  all it takes is $$ anyway...how fast do you want it to be? | ||
| Nevco1 |
Well, I gave up on making conjecture about new models. Gave up on Santa Claus too as the fat guy didn't leave me any dual headlamps for my X1. The praying thing started to work, so I guess I will just chant my way through 2003 and hopefully a V-Rod powered streetfighter or super tracker will mysteriously appear.... Ommmmm....Ommmmm...Ommmmm....Ommmmm....Ommmmm | ||
| Blake |
Bill, You're never going to let me forget that are you. ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Mikej |
If pressed, I'd have to say that for Erik to be considered for a pedestal among the motor gods, he will have to go it alone. Only then will we see the Buell that could be. Interesting analogy/comparison: Harley-Davidson started in a shed; Buell basically started in a shed. Harley-Davidson nearly went bankrupt and out of business when they were salvaged by AMF; Buell nearly went bankrupt and out of business when they were salvaged by Harley-Davidson. Harley-Davidson employees and investors and owners formed a pseudo-co-op and bought the financially infused company back from AMF; Is this possible with Buell? I'm wondering, as I'm prone to do at times, if S&S or STD or Sputh or another engine company, and if Baker or Andrews or another tranny/gear company, if one of those were to buy into the idea and infuse the necessary funding could Buell then break away? There is that dealership issue to contend with, and supporting/supplying existing customers with spare parts who would quickly be more-alienated from many H-D shops if it did happen. But still, something to consider as you sip your hot apple cider in front of a fireplace or television some evening this winter. | ||
| Court |
Counting to 10 . . . boy howdy would I love in this dialouge  | ||
| Mikej |
9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1... cleared for takeoff start them fingers typing (Leaving for the day in 30 minutes, hope it starts before then.)  | ||
| Court |
I MUST get my hands on Steve Anderson's article. I suspect it is much more objective. Steve, among journalists, is not only a gifted engineer, he has a keen business insight and is unburdened by looking through a leather Harleyscope. Court | ||
| Mikej |
I think that article is in the book. Blake, is that the big black book I see piled high in all the bookstores around here????? | ||
| Blastin |
I usually don't say too much on the H-D/Buell discusion that is constantly being chatted about in one form or the other....but....here's my two cents. H-D is full of a lot of smart fellers and fellerettes. Buell is definitelly full of a lot of very smart fellers and fellerettes. H-D may control the Buell pocketbook to some extent.(I don't claim to know that they do or don't, but I'm guessing they do at least a little bit) The smart people at H-D already recognized the genius of Erik Buell, that's why they bought into his ideas a few years back. Yes Buell(the company) may have to make some concessions, but anyone who would stiffle the free thinking of a man like Erik Buell and all of the other smart people he has surronded himself with at Buell(the company) would have to be an absolute MORON. H-D may have supposedly bought Buell to try and get a "younger" market into Big Twin$, but I think that was not the only reason. Actually I think it was only a small reason. Even mighty H-D can see that taking a street bike(not "race bike" ) around the corner can be a whole lot more fun than taking the cruiser around the block. They recognized that there where a lot of people that also thought this. I do think that they may have possibly slightly underestimated that there were more of us crazy nuts that like to have big "FUN" on street bikes more than cruisers. I thinks that they have now seen the preverbeal "light" and are moving things around appropiately. Things are happening more than any of us would ever know. | ||
| Cowboy |
Blastin..... I agree with much of what you say. as a man that has spent the largest part of his life in the oil field and has watched the take over of many smaller companys, they seem to all follow a pattern the same as we see with Mother Harley and Buell. Watch for a big change in our sport bike in the next 2 yrs. we may even be looking at the end of Buell down the road. Now I will put on my helment an try to duck most of the flak. HA HA | ||
| Rick_A |
Sputhe. Yuk. The Sputhe engines are what...104ci big twins...making what...a fraction above 120hp typically. There's plenty of people with 88ci Sportsters with stock bottom ends typically making around 120hp without all the trickery and expense of that Sputhe lump. Buells are fine as they are, IMO. Why would any aftermarket folks want to get involved? They have their own businesses to take care of. As a private venture that's pretty much happening, though. As far as production bikes H-D has plenty of funding of their own, I'm sure. | ||
| Blake |
Let me quote Mr. Anderson again, yes, from that big black book stacked high in bookstores ...
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| Cowboy |
Blake I knew the flak would come. But never say never, I got up every morning for 36 years and put on a pair of OTIS coveralls and then one day they were Haliburton. Every $1.00 bill has George Washingyon on it. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Is George Washingyon Chinese? | ||
| Cowboy |
Bulliedan sorry about that. To many years pulling wrenches. Fingers to stiff every thing else ?????? | ||
| Rattler |
Hehehe..Blake..you never came off as pissed off to me in your postings & I'm certainly not "if it ain't a harley" type man. I kind of love working on the tractor engines though. You see how easy people take a stock HD Sportster mill & improve it...I'm just into doing that now. If HD does come out with a water cooled Sportster, I will jump ship to a Buell most likely. Then again, I'd have to give it a chance & see. I've heard this same rumor along with the XB9 engine one a few times now...I'd prefer the latter. The Nallin/High Country/Team Elves Buell sounds interesting too! I guess the big question is as mentioned already, something radical is happening with the Sportster just from the standpoint that Buell dumped the Sportster mill IMO. Timbo, I'm not all that thrilled with the Buell power ranger look..(Remember you in Snyders race suit at Bonny! LOL) I do like the look of the Sportster better, but it's that look that compromises it's handling ability & a lot of other things! I guess that's why my Sportster is now all in pieces...no engine upgrades this year..a first in two years now...all appearance & bodywork only this time. This, along with this years LSR project is keeping me quite busy in the friggin cold garage! I just like having something different than the norm, which is why I'm doing the winter project on looks only this year. A Sportster now is a cruiser bike, some of us wished was more Sport bike I guess, but not like all the foreign bikes either. (Not that Buell is, mind you) I do prefer the look of the Tubers over the new Bolt & Lightning Dale A. | ||
| Timbo |
Gee...thanks Dale, Now I know what you *really* think. Maybe that's why my youngest son wears his blue power ranger PJ's ALL the time. In fact he's running around the house like a wild banshie as I type this now with them on. Well since it's highly likely Snyder and I will be racing at the same time this coming year, I bit the bullet and bought a nice pair of racing leathers (so no duct taping of my old pair). You may be glad to know I bought a pair that is one solid color (yes,black) so no more power ranger look either. As far as bikes go...It's a very personal thing, period! The more I ride my XB the more beautiful it looks to me. That may sound funny but when I look back at it and think of the incredible fun I just had, I can't help but admire it. I agree the look of the XL is classic, and I love it. That's why I still own one, and if I can have my way, I'll have a tube frame Buell as well (S1 thank you very much). Timbo | ||
| S320002 |
Quote: "Watch for a big change in our sport bike in the next 2 yrs. We may even be looking at the end of Buell down the road." Cowboy, When HD bought out all but 2% of Erik's share of their joint venture, one stipulations of the contract was that should HD ever sell Buell the name would stay with Erik. HD is not likely to sell out Buell and the end of Buell that you are looking at down the road is the end with the taillight on it. If HD ever puts a liquid cooled engine in a Sportster expect a Big Twin price. More about the Buell engine thing later. Greg | ||
| Nevco1 |
One good thing about HD/BMC and life is that there is aways something new down the road. As far as what it is, guess we will just have to wait and see. In the interim, I am still chanting for a V-Rod powered Streetfighter and/or Supertracker. Ommmmmm...Ommmmm...Ommmmmm | ||
| Rick_A |
One thing I've always liked about Sportsters is that a new one still has features reminiscent of the original...and also look much like the 70's Sportsters...when they were probably in their finest time (i.e., were actually still thought of as fast bikes). I for one hope it stays that way. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Blake, Where did this come from? Quote: "Watch for a big change in our sport bike in the next 2 yrs. We may even be looking at the end of Buell down the road." Don't bet on it! | ||
| Court |
That has a distinctively Jose'ish sound about it, regardless of who authored it. I was told the same thing in 1998. After meeting Erik, I didn't beleive it then and I don't beleive it now. I try/tend to try to avoid circular "consider the source" arguments on the topic and often quote, as you may recall, Nobel Laureate Gary Becker's advice to "terminate a dispute once it has been resolved to differences in taste". Frequently, I submit, taste rather than substance, is the source of such Buell-doom" statements. I wrote one of my best pieces in 1995 on "Faith", that elusive ability, perhaps gift, of those lucky people capable of beleiving, truly believing, in the abstract, that they can not see, touch, hold or prove mathematically. Faith, in this day, seems more elusive as we enter an age when even the less educated among us can quickly, via an internet search, produce "proof" of nearly anything. In a world that seems to revolve around change, one of the gifts I cherish most is the ability to recognize that which does not change, things such as love, honesty, loyalty and, yes, faith. Entreprenuership is a funny place. Try asking someone what an entreprenuer is and you'll get an answer that in someway describes a person who chases the commercial equivalent of mythical windmills, dreams they cleraly see and beleive in, but that may be invisible to others. In the days when tears were shed over potential sources of the next payroll, bank loan officers laughed and lackocash precluded burning the wood stove all night, there was a group who beleived. Today, that group, with the dream embraced by growing numbers, is alive, well and has grown in number to include many of us here. The article, if I recall, was written by Reg Kittrelle (and I stand ready to be corrected) and the topic was Buell & HD integration, the venue was SacBorg. In 1997, while speeding from Chicago toward Milwaukee, my phone rang and it was Reg. I'd gotten an offer from Erik to come to East Troy to help. Hours following that offer, I got another from another company that had a "keep those two apart" ring to it. The money was much better, but the motivation of question. I followed Reg's advise that night when he said "Go with your heart. When the book of Buell gets written you're not just mentioned, you are a chapter, make it a good one". I beleived then and I beleive now. Harley-Davidson and Buell are different motorcycles. Like any other complementary goods, they share some parts, owners, stategies, goals and methods. There are some economies of scale (parts) and some diseconomies of scale (B.R.A.G.). By that, I am referring to what is known as postive/negative transfer of knowledge. In essence, Harley parts knowledge can benefit Buell. Harley H.O.G. knowledge can be a burden to Buell. Using the Harley gun to fire the Buell bullet works in some/most cases, not in all of them. In the beginning fewer folks recognized this. It was the truly gifted, Terrlink and Bleustein among them, that did and ran corporate interferance to insure Buell survived. Others took the opposite tack, vowing to do Buell in, whether by it's own devices or not. There are some, at least two I know of, motivated by simple jealously having to eat "you'll be sorry" words uttered when Erik left Harley-Davidson to chase a dream. You didn't ask for this lecture and it's not directed at you, I know where your heart is. This is primarlily for the benefit of the recent nay-sayers who rather than help someone fix their speedo senor will spend 2 hours on the internet "proving" that Buell has a design flaw. I'm glad I am not one of their children. Harley-Davidson and Buell will BOTH thrive, I predict. I predict that, in the coming 18 months, there will be good news, related more to Buell programs and methods as they may eventually benefit the mothership than to Buell motorcycles, about positive things happening. I predict, based on early information, that you will read a magazine article about the Buell XB chassis and bikes based on it moving motorcycle quality and owner satisfaction to previously unheard of levels. I predict the mother company, these systems being ironed out at the Buell "skunk works" (for a Buell hat, tell me the REAL name of Kelly Johnson's facility known as "skunk works" will adopt systems and benefit, beyond the simple sale of motorcycles, from the Buell acquistion. I am thrilled about what is going on and how it is happening. Court | ||
| Bandm |
Clarence L. (Kelly) Johnson was Vice President of Lockheed's Advanced Development Projects (Skunk Works), located at the Rye Canyon Research Facility, renamed the Kelly Johnson Research and Development Center. | ||
| Court |
Bandm: Good work! E-mail me your address and a quite rare Buell baseball cap wil be on the way. For a good read, don't miss "Skunk Works" written by Ben Rich and dubbed "Dynamite" by Tom Clancy. The book is fabulous and I used it for research on organizing and maintaing control of highly technical development teams. Johnson wrote, quite literally, the book in this area. Court | ||
| Rick_A |
Those Buell caps are ugly as sin. I made my own. | ||
| Blake |
Imonabuss, See Cowboy's post above dated Friday, December 27, 2002 - 12:32 pm in this thread. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Blake, Sorry, I scanned back through the thread and missed it before. Where do these guys come up with this stuff? The times of worrying about Buell folding were in the late 80's and early 90's, I'd guess! | ||
| Mikej |
Just to throw a little sidelight on the issue that is somewhat totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand, yet may be totally indicative of the issue at hand. The other day I stopped in at my local usual H-D/Buell shop to use the restroom, say howdy, and see what's for sale and what's on sale. One thing I picked up was a poster showing Harley's over the last 100 years. Even has the little 350cc cafe racer they had for awhile. Amoung all the bikes and models pictured, including the XR750 and VR1000 are exactly two Buells. The only Buells noted on the poster are the 1995 S2 and the 2001 Blast. No S1, no S3, no RS/RSS/RR's, no other Buells apart from the S2 and the Blast. I just found in interesting, partly due to what was included from the Buell, and moreso what wasn't included. This observation probably has nothing to do with anything, or it has everything to do with everything. Oh, and the poster has two images of the V-Rod, left side and right side shown, and it included three 2003 models of Harleys. Once I hang it up on the wall the writing may truely be on the wall, or not. Like I said, it may mean nothing, or it may mean more. It would be interesting to talk to the graphics people and ask two questions: why were no other Buells noted on the poster, and why were those two Buells noted when no other were included. |
