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Stevel
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 05:42 am: | 
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I have stated my opinion earlier in this thread that removal of this tool will damage the case. It has not changed. Further, it may be possible to split the motor case without disassembly of the top end. I would have to take a good look at this with a spare motor to be sure, but I think it could be done. Assuming the case is split, the tool would then easily be removed by cutting the shaft outside the case and simply pulling the shaft through the case from the inside.
What one take-away of this unfortunate event is however, is concern over the tool the OP used. The original tool was made by Kent-Moore. Kent-Moor is famous for its specialty tools. They make these for many, many firms including GM. They make these under license and cannot be purchased directly from Kent-Moore. The original tool is one piece and appears to be not very hard. It is easily cut with a file. My guess is it is around HRC 35 to HRC 45 and is steel. Probably 4140 or 4340. It has been heat treated, so it is not soft. Under no circumstances should this tool be two pieces nor should it be stainless steel. Stainless is no way strong or tough enough for this application. So those folks that have one of these aftermarket tools should immediately throw them away. This in no way absolves the OP's errors, but this inadequate tool certainly did not help the OP's cause. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 08:20 am: |
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Steve is probably right, but before I go splitting cases, I would want to try a moderate amount of "pulling". It will either come out, or it won't, and you haven't invested much to find out the answer.
The gap between "pulling pretty hard" and "pulling hard enough that an extracting a tool with a bent tip will damage the cases" is the difference between a set of vice grips and a rubber mallet, and a hydraulic press.
Ever tried to pull something stuck with a pair of vice grips clamped to a smooth metal surface? You can't get much force on them, they just slide off peeling some metal with them.
Splitting cases is the most prudent course, and is guaranteed to work (if you can do it without locking the crank, I have no idea). But I personally would exhaust other low investment non destructive options first (even if they are a long shot).
I will say that when I bought a beat to hell KDX-200, I resisted splitting the cases to address a spline stripped output shaft. And then ended up splitting the cases anyway, and was happy that I did in hindsight.
(Message edited by reepicheep on December 18, 2014) |
B2tomtom
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 08:53 am: |
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Splitting the cases would be tough without the locking tool. You would have to find some method to lock the crank so that you could break the clutch and crank nut loose. You might be able to pull the front cylinder and piston to allow you to see the tool if you can rotate the crank around enough. |
Stevel
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 09:41 am: |
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B2tomtom,
It is absolutely no problem to blow the high torque nuts off the crank.........it's called a Pneumatic 3/4" drive impact wrench. I do it all the time. In point of fact, that tool is best only used for setting the cam timing and nothing else. The tool shaft is only .301" in diameter. I don't think the tool is up to withstanding 300 ft/lbs of torque, no matter what the manual states. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 09:42 am: |
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I'm learning, some excellent points being made.
If the case could break with stainless then it may already be broken. I like the idea of bending the bolt back then anchoring the bike and using a hydraulic ram with a body shop puller clamp. Take it apart and inspect.
Early on my 96S1 broke the left front forward motor mount bolt on a regular basis. The bolts had been on national back order for months, I wanted to ride so I bought grade 8's. I had already broken a grade 8 set and tried stainless. I rode on those bolts for one day to an old school east side fastener company and got something better than grade 8. Those stainless bolts wobbled out after riding around town for one day! The better than 8's have been there ever since, about 85,000 miles. |
Openrangesports
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 12:03 pm: |
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UPDATE #2: SRWmoto came up with the suggestion to use the threads from the rod that is stuck - the rod threads into the base of the tool that has been removed and the rod remained in the engine - with enough threads showing to thread on a nut. If I keep adding spacers between the crankcase and the nut and simply tighten the nut it theoretically should pull the rod downwards. The question remains as to how bent the tip is. If it is rolled excessively I could damage the tube inside the case that houses the rod. On the other hand if its just a burr, the burr will perhaps score the inside of the tube, but that doesn't harm anything. Wish I could see inside to know what I'm up against. I never got enough twisting torque on the rod due to it unthreading from the base. I did get some pull down torque with 2 vice grips and some pulling, but no consistent torque.
The worst part of this is my ego hit. I took my time and did everything by the book but the crank position indication is BS, Rotax should have thought ahead on this one. If I had been in the right place I wouldn't have damaged the tip. Besides that, the tool didn't help my plight. I don't understand why a hardened rod would get damaged by a crank turned by hand... Thanks for all the comments, it really helps my brain! |
Northernyankee
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 12:23 pm: |
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Do you have any pics of the tool stuck in the case? It might help people come up with ideas. I do like their idea of shimming it until it pops free.
I too find it hard to believe that the tip of the tool is damaged...but being that this is a 2-piece design unlike the OEM tool which is 1-piece, you never know. |
Nuts4mc
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 01:27 pm: |
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1) I would be careful using the case as a "base" for the wedging action as you describe in UPDATE #2...try your best to spread the force out over a large area (like using "fender washers" for wedges)
2) make sure the threads of the shaft and the nut are in good shape...if you can, use a "coupling nut" like the ones used to join "all thread rod" together...metric coupling nuts can be purchased from McMaster-Carr:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#hex-nuts/=v2v93y
3) I would use a coupling nut and a slide hammer ( like the kind used by body shops to pull dents) to pull the rod out...leaving the case(s) un-stressed:
http://www.harborfreight.com/slide-hammer-and-pull er-set-pc-60554.html
...hope this helps |
Openrangesports
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 02:42 pm: |
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FINAL UPDATE: SUCCESS!!!
The rod in the case had threads. SRWmoto's idea worked. The confusing thing was the rod looked perfect. No nicks, no rolled tip. The rod had a super small bow in it, almost hard to see. The only thing that makes sense to me is that the rod was a little bit too big for the hole and as I unthreaded the base (which would have pulled the rod out with it) the rod unthreaded as well leaving me with no real purchase on the rod to get it out. I'm still not sure the threads on the plug hole are good but I suspect they are. I'll get a long bolt to check so if its damaged I don't have a small plug I cant get out.
So, I don't see what damage I could have done inside the case. The rod was clean and relatively straight. I guess its possible that I bent the casting where the tip comes out into the crank case but that doesn't make sense.
Thanks all for the input. It really helped me think it through and made it more of a puzzle than a death sentence! Christmas came early for this Kentucky boy.
Anyone have an OEM BUELL CRANK TOOL I can rent? I've dedicated this much into the job, hate to quit now... |
Brother_in_buells
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 03:41 pm: |
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Good to hear you got it out!
Can you post some pics of the tool parts? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 04:05 pm: |
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Great news! |
Nuts4mc
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 04:27 pm: |
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Super! great to hear! |
Mhpalin
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 04:45 pm: |
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Right on good to here Have e merry Christmass |
Mhpalin
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 04:48 pm: |
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Check this thread outhttp://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/734073.html?1413402301 |
Shawns
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 06:27 pm: |
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Try this. http://www.ebay.com/itm/261652049722?ssPageName=ST RK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649 |
Nobuell
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 06:55 pm: |
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Woo, wipe the sweet off of your forehead. Good job! |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 11:47 pm: |
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Yippee! Merry Christmas! |
Nillaice
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2014 - 12:38 am: |
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Open range
Pm replied. Send me your deposit |
Northernyankee
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2014 - 08:04 am: |
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Nice!!! |
Nobuell
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2014 - 08:59 am: |
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A quick reminder, the easy way to find the front TDC when the ignition cover is off. Remove the washer on the balancer shaft. You will see a crescent shaped cut-out. Rotate the motor until the cut-out is parallel to the rotor teeth. Once it is parallel, the locking tool will insert into the proper hole. No guess work or pulling the valve covers.
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Battyone
| | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2015 - 03:57 pm: |
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I'm pretty sure I've had a rant about this before. I currently have 5 1125 motors, 2 completely dismantled.And one race bike gone to a new home. I have removed and replaced rotors more times than I can remember, having sold and fitted quite a few 08 setups for unlucky 09 owners, as well as repairing/building my own motors.
I use an 18v impact gun nothing more. Just heat the nut to soften the loctite, wizz it off, clean the nut threads and re use it. |
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