| Author | Message | ||
     Openrangesports |
The crankshaft locking tool just spins and neither unscrews nor screws in after I had screwed it in the hole. This was part of changing out the rotor in 2009 1125cr. In order of events: 1) screwed in tool until I hit resistance. Forgot to fish out crush washer for oil plug so tool had the washer between the case. 2) rocked the crank while seeing if the tool would find its cranks tool hole. Basically kept trying to tighten the tool at different positions. NOTE: I was in the wrong position by about 45 degrees. Also I did not over tighten. 3) found an area where the tool went deeper. (Again this was incorrect area). Tightened tool. 4) rocked crank and it moved. NOTE: I put some torque on the crank bolt. Nothing gorilla but some force. Backed out tool a bit. 5) rocked crank again. Same as above. 6) decided to back out tool all the way because I forgot to take off crush washer for oil plug. Decided to look up instructions more fully on gear position for tool alignment. 7). Tool would turn and turn. Way past what it should have in revolutions to unscrew. I started to panic. 8) watched video on correct position of crank. Moved crank and attempted to remove tool hoping this position eased tension. 9) tool just spins and spins. Tried pulling down on tool with tension to hopefully cause it to bite new threads if thread was stripped. No go. Tried pushing up on tool while screwing in. No movement. 10) started cursing and almost crying thinking if I don't get the tool out I'm looking at a dealer splitting cases, which they'd have to do if the case threads are stripped $$$$$$$$$! I don't understand logically what is going on. Please help with ay thoughts. Sent from my iPad | ||
| Northernyankee |
My guess is that the washer got pushed into the case and threaded on the tool and now is like a lock washer on the tool. | ||
| Brokengq |
Yeah that washer had to make something funny happen in there...I'm scared for you. Step 6 probably should've happened after step 1....no offense. I would fiddle with it a little more, but try to avoid doing anything that could result in more damage. Unfortunately though I think splitting the case to see what's going on may be the only option. | ||
| Stevel |
My guess is you have bent the locking tool to the point where it is not removable. Even after splitting the cases, the tool will most likely have to be cut with a grinding wheel. There is no way to know until the tool is removed if the case threads are damaged, but there is a good chance they are also hurt. If the lower case is damaged, consider a used replacement engine. It will be a lot less expensive. You have nothing to lose by taking the motor apart yourself, at least you will have learned something. take lots of pictures when you do it. | ||
| Mhpalin |
Can you post a pic of the tool in the case | ||
| Northernyankee |
Man that would take a lot of pressure to bend the tool, I believe it is hardened. | ||
| Openrangesports |
The tool most likely isn't bent. Only about 1/2" pokes through into the crank case. There is a super small amount of side to side movement from the tool so that tells me it's almost out, or defiantly not fully in. If the threads were stripped I'd think I could still back it out with downward pressure. When I started the tool in I felt for a washer but didn't feel it, yet it didn't come off with the threaded plug so it had to have stuck up there. Not sure how much damage I could do if 1) I tap the tool IN lightly while trying to thread or 2) placing 2 grip pliers, one on each side, and pull down while turning. If that doesn't work I'm sunk. Any other thoughts? | ||
| Openrangesports |
 Photos of crank locking tool in place.  You'll see the tool is supported by the case making it difficult to bend. This is not my bike but a photo a friend shared. | ||
| Mcelhaney14 |
By having it in the wrong place and turing the crank against it you may have created a burr on the locking end. Doesnt explain why it wont tighten up (maybe the washer)? | ||
| Northernyankee |
That would explain it not locking in the crank and not being able to remove it. (Message edited by Northernyankee on December 15, 2014) | ||
| Mhpalin |
Not much to loose here I would try the 2 grip pliers method sure sounds like it is stripped pull with all you got and turn it out  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hard to tell for sure from the pictures, but it looks like something that would fix just fine with a timsert if you can get the dang thing out. So at this point it seems like you are looking at a $125 disaster, not a "new engine disaster". Now to just get it out... | ||
| Mhpalin |
I agree timsert if you can get it out | ||
| Stevel |
That looks like a home made tool. It is probably not hardened and if so, would be easy to bend. Removing a bent tool could likely trash the crank case. Personally I wouldn't take the chance. Remove the engine, turn it upside down on the bench and split the case. Consider the task "Penance" for the lack of due diligence. | ||
| Dannybuell |
if you believe you have nothing to lose, find a bigger clamp and use some sort of hydraulic ram to pull it out. google auto body tools. | ||
| Northernyankee |
That pic he showed is the Twin Moto Tool. From their website... "The tip is made of hardend stainless Steel to hold the 400NM of Torque." | ||
| Openrangesports |
SRWMoto had the tool made and is as spec'd above. They have been in contact and we are all brewing ideas before I do more harm! I appreciate all the ideas. My logic brain has narrowed down to 3 scenarios. 1) Crank created a burr at tip of tool by my moving the crank with the tool in the incorrect location. Burr is inhibiting tool being able to be removed (see photo of how little room there is for tip to be altered and still be able to be removed). 2) Crank pushed back on tip at end of tool somehow crushing threads where tool threads in. This has caused tool or crankcase to have damaged threads (my personal thought). 3) Brass crush washer has turned into a demon and somehow frogged up the threads? Solution Options are: 1) 2 vicegrips at 180 degrees on tool, pull down like a mofo while unscrewing, 2) Same as above but push up to see if I can find threads, 3) Tap tool with hammer to hopefully straighten out any threads that were squashed then try to tighten or loosen as 1&2 above, 4) Take my licks and cart the bike and box of parts like a loser to the HD / Buell dealer and hope they know how to open an engine and put it back together... while getting the tool out... without being able to lock the crankshaft. 5) Time-Sert if the threads are toast. Have no idea how to keep metal chips out of crankcase or how to flush.  | ||
| Mhpalin |
Flushing is the easy part the hole is at the bottom of the engine so the chips should flow to the screen.The way I would do it is the old 2-stroke I holed the piston method,dump some kerosene into the motor slowly with the oil screen cover and all plugs out,then warm up some cheap oil in really hot water and flush some more should work.If anyone has any better methods chime in. | ||
| Stevel |
You really have no options. The tool does not want to come out. Forcing the tool out will cause more damage, not maybe, will for sure. Without disassembly and thorough inspection, you will not know what happened and you will not know the total damage caused. Further, no external flush can guarantee that all contaminating particulate has been removed. Now, examine the financial impact. You are looking at a minimum of two days work of one man, plus supplies/parts and worse is that you learn nothing and your out a minimum of $1,000. Taking the motor apart yourself is free and you learn something. Consider the worst case and you ruin the engine.........so what, you have learned what not to do at the very least. Now what? You get on Flea Bay and buy a used motor for $1,000. At least to me this is a no-brainer! The only way to possibly avoid this $1,000 exposure is to do it yourself. | ||
| Reepicheep |
OK, I googled up a picture of the full tool because I love noodling problems like this. Dang! That thing is long. So it's a long pencil like rod that engages the crank hole, then a short section of threads that engage the outer end of the case, then basically a handle. We have one "given". The threads in the case are already shredded. They have to be, otherwise you could't keep turning the tool indefinitely. Regardless of what that washer did in there, those threads have to me messed up. === Scenario 1: Bent tool tip === So if that tip is bent significantly, and its steel, pulling it out is going to leave a path of destruction proportional to the amount the tip is bent. Is that just solid crank case? Are there oil passages that could be crushed? Weak points along the path where the bent tip will crack the case? All likely enough that its a really high risk to take. But I'm skeptical that this is the case. The pictures above show the tool fully inserted. But to fully insert it, the crank has to be in the right position (duh!). Otherwise, the tool tip is just bumping the crank where there isn't a locking hole. That had to be the case here, the tool never did get into the hole in the crank. So looking at the picture above, picture that same picture, but with that tip much less further sticking out. How much less? That would be an answerable question by somebody with a tool and half a crank case or engineering diagrams. With that tip half way as far out as it is in that picture, it seems like it would take an extraordinary amount of force to bend the tip. And it doesn't sound like an extraordinary amount of force was applied here, unless there was a step we aren't hearing about where an impact wrench was put to the crank and hammered away for a bit. Or perhaps if there is a spot on the crank that is more of a ramp, and the tool was (under considerable torque) forced inwards against that ramp while the case threads were being boogered up. Seems unlikely for a hardened steel tool of that size. So I had to guess, at this point, I'd guess that the tip of the tool isn't bent. Which brings us to scenario two... == Case two: Serious Thread Boogering == This is what I think happened. I think the washer got in there and fouled the threads, or the attempt to lock the crank in the wrong position meant not enough threads were engaged, and the threads in the case are just mangled and fouled and maybe the washer is now a wedge and that is what is holding the tool in. Which would be "good" news relative to other possibilities. The threads are at the outside of the case, and should be easy to make a very durable and oil tight repair with a $125 timesert kit. Structurally a heli-coil would probably even hold, but I have seen them have a slow chronic leak when used to repair oil drain plugs, so this is a case to pony up the cash for a better thread repair. You could likely recoup significant expense by reselling or sharing the tool after making the repair (as you aren't likely to need it again). == What would I do? == At this point, if it were my bike, based on the thinking above... I would walk out to the garage, slap a set of vice grips on the tool as tightly as I could get them (mangling the handle of the tool), then take a rubber mallet and start pounding down and out and turning it back and forth. If the tip is really bent, the vice grips won't have enough purchase to do much damage to the case (IMHO). They will just pound right off the tool leaving nice deep gouges. If the threads are just boogered and wedged, I think the rubber mallet pounding will break up whatever threads and wedges of whatever are still there, and drive the tool out. Same if it is a small burr on the tool tip, it will do some damage, but not a lot, as the mallet and vice grip combination just can't apply that much force. I wouldn't go nuts though. | ||
| Northernyankee |
I'm with Reepicheep, I think its the washer also. Use some vise grip or weld a piece of flat on the bottom of the handle and then some "gentle" persuasion with a dead blow. | ||
| Northernyankee |
Also here is a pic of the notch where the tool seats. Another reason I don't think the tip of the tool is buggered is because locking the crank with the tool is the method for torquing the stator nut to 300ft/lbs and I don't think you came close to doing anything that forcefully here.  (Message edited by Northernyankee on December 17, 2014) | ||
| Footstuck |
Another way to remove damaged tool You could GGGENTLY turn the rotor till you meet the resistance of the tool. Then, turn the tool till you feel it at its most pronounced bent position(If in fact the tool is bent). If it is bent, as you turn it you will feel the rotor move or you may have to bounce the rotor softly to ascertain the high point. Then I would 'Heave-Bounce' the rotor nut(using the crank as a 'Fly-Press'), to see if you can improve on the amount the tool can be retracted (or improve its straightness). If the tool has bent due to its softness, it should bend back without serious fracture. My bet is that the tool has bent and it has partially retracted under the draw of the threaded section of the tool and probably mushroomed the top of the thread under the tension. Now it will not re-start due to the mauling at the start of both threads and the pinching effect of the mauling aluminum on the shaft of the tool. Good luck... if the tool snaps off under straightening you're in no worse a position as long as you don't turn the motor to much If the tool is soft steel is should bend straight without fracture. Hope this helps fella | ||
| Openrangesports |
Thanks all! I'm going into the garage for a session and will keep you posted. | ||
| Openrangesports |
UPDATE: The Crank Lock Tool from SRWmoto is 2 pieces. The base and the rod threads into the base and is supposed to be threadlocked in place. My tool has unfortunately unscrewed (I got the base out so the crankcase threads are fine) leaving the rod in the crankcase. The rods tip may have been nicked or bent, but in any case the rod unscrewed not allowing the rod to come out. The threads in the tools base are buggered which is why the tool just spun in place. At this juncture I have 2 thoughts: 1)Have a new base machined without crankcase threads, JB Weld the handles threads to the rod (which is tricky cause it can just spin) and once the threads are set, attempt to remove the rod again or 2) Cut my losses knowing my crankcase is still ok, take it to the dealer and let them split the cases and remove from the bottom. Which would you do? Question: If the rod were not bent or nicked, it should have simply fallen out of the hole. I obviously did something... BUT... the tool should have been threadlocked to prevent it from unscrewing so I could have had a better chance of using some techniques to get it out. SRWmoto has been communicative, but seems the tool was assembled incorrectly. Plus how would a crankshaft "nick" or "bend" a heat treated rod? I'm not a fussy guy, but this project has gotten way out of control and the tool didn't perform as expected. The guys have been very polite but.... | ||
| Nillaice |
stick it out with option 1. take it to the dealer as your last resort JB Weld could work. maybe pre-loading the crank will bind the locking rod so that you can get it to thread into the base a little better/further another option dremel a groove in the exposed end of the locking rod and unscrew it like a flat-head screw. ive had great success in doing this with blind-holes and snapped studs | ||
| Mhpalin |
can you move the crankshaft as in wiggle it back and forth just a bit maybe the the tool is pinched just a thought | ||
| Nobuell |
If I understand the SRWmoto tool design, the handle has threads that engage the case thread. You removed the handle and it un-screwed from the case leaving the rod. I assume the rod has threads the engage the handle. Both the rod threads and the handle threads are right hand so the rod un-threaded as the handle was un-threading from the case. You may be able to grind off the handle threads so that you can screw the handle onto the rod. I would then continue rotating the handle in the direction that keeps the threads engaged keeping the rod thread engaged. I would clamp vice grip near the case. You may be able to wedge a bar under the vice grips and between the case to force the rod out. You may want to pry against a piece of wood to preclude case damage. It is worth a try. | ||
| Mitchg |
Vise grips on the rod(super tight) and pound the rod out. I'd use a slide hammer if I could rig the bike high enough though. Odds are, although unlikely, it's just a burr on the rod and it will pop right out. I feel your pain as I'm waiting for my rotor now. | ||
| Reepicheep |
What Nobuell said. Grind off the old threads and use the old handle. Or MIG weld a bolt to the end of the stupid thing... |
