| Author | Message | ||
     Craigsmoney |
I have been fighting with this issue since I got the bike last spring, but until now have been able to deal with it as it wasn't been that bad. I had it in to our friends at the Harley shop, and the service guy said "yeah the tech felt it, but said you'll have to deal with it because there is nothing wrong with your bike."...according to the computer. See all they did was check that the fuel mapping was right, and there were no codes and did a tps reset. I took it into that shop several times, but then gave up with them. A couple months ago I sent it in to a different dealer for a charging issue, you know typical issue, and they replaced the stator and front coil pack said that that was the problem. I got it back and didn't even ride 10 minutes and the problem was still there!!! I don't think they even fixed it. So I took it back, and they replaced the recall harness, said it was foobar. I got the bike bike, guess what? No change. That was the last time it was at the dealer. I found the problem with the charging system in about 5 min, and had it fixed in 1hr (that includes a trip to the parts store). Two of the stator wires were melted together close to the plug on the regulator. Charging system works great now. see post (http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/678961.html?1336630950) The Problem. A miss fire/poor power through all RPM ranges from idle to 8000RPM, Maybe does it at higher than that, but I haven't run it that high for long enough to feel it. It also runs like a dog then it will smart up and take off for a few seconds, then back to it's old tricks. This spring I put in a barker's exhaust and ebr race ecm. I'd like to say I like the set up, however the bike runs worse when the race parts are installed. I have gone into diag mode with the race ecm, the codes are: P0122 TPS circuit low. P0113 Intake air temp sensor high/open P0193 Fuel pump sensor circuit high P0511 Idle air control circuit fault P0562 Battery Voltage low. I started doing some diagnosis according to the manual, the tps runs smooth, no voltage spikes. Fuel pressure is good. 517 KPA at key on, and hover's around 400 kpa at idle and cracking the throttle. Then I said...hold on a minute. I wonder if those codes were stored in the race ecm from the start. So I installed the stock ecm and ran the diag mode, and the only codes were a fuel pump code (because I had the fuel pump disconnected) and the active air control valve code (and I think you all know why that code came up). How long do the codes stay in the ecm? I cycled the key on and off 50 times yesterday and the codes were still in the race ecm. I have also run through all the grounds and they are all tight. I even found the two ground wires on the front head and put a wrench on it and it is tight. I didn't remove it as I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to re-attach them without rotating the engine. In diag mode, the voltage read out jumps all over the place ranging from the low 12's to the high 14's and it does this fast volage changes several times a second. I have my voltage meter on the battery and it holds firm at around 13.7-14 V. This spring the front coil pack was replaced due to water damage, and the dealer said there was a code in the computer that said that was the problem. I think the code was a front cylinder miss fire. As a side not, when I did my valve adjustment in the fall, the front spark plug hole was full of water. I also replaced both spark plugs, and have ran what seems like gallons of injector cleaner with fuel all last summer. Has anyone else had the problem with there R/CR and if you have fixed it, how? Thank you in advance for all your help. | ||
| Timebandit |
i thought that the code clear occurred after 50 starts, not 50 key-on/off cycles. You might want to check on that. What ever happened with your stator wire problem? Did they fix it under warranty? | ||
| Craigsmoney |
No, I gave up on them. It cost me 10 bucks to get the Pins. It is really easy to take the connector apart. really, the should still be chasing down this miss problem, but I give up on them trying things. I've read that some people have injector problems with these bikes, have you had experience with that? | ||
| Timebandit |
I'm lucky enough that I haven't had to deal with any performance problems yet. (fingers crossed). I'm not likely to be much help. Zac4mac has written about the injectors. It sounds like your shop is just doing the absolute minimum -- they check error codes and push the bike out the door. I'm really surprised that they never bothered to put it on a scope and watch for a misfire to see if there's an electrical reason. I guess now that there are computers on the bikes, the dealership techs are losing their diagnostic skills. So which ECM/exhaust combination are you using now? You've got them matched and you've checked for leaks? Did you ever try an ultrasonic cleaner with the injectors? | ||
| Craigsmoney |
I'm using the barker's exhaust and ebr ecm for that and k&n filter. I'm running it all. I haven't checked for leaks. I don't think the manifold is leaking because nothing around them is melting. but I'll have a closer look at that this afternoon. Thanks for the tip | ||
| Colintornado |
It may be a duff injector,"AVALAUGH" had poor running and we suspected an injector so we swopped out with my bike and it prooved it. | ||
| Craigsmoney |
thanks for the tip Colintarnado. Can we swap injectors. lol. apart from removing the injectors and having them tested, is there a way to narrow it down? | ||
| Craigsmoney |
Time, Can you direct me to zac4mac's posts about fuel injectors. I try searching for fuel injector and nothing comes up. If you can help me with that, that would be appreciated. | ||
| Colintornado |
If I was a little closer I would come and swop injectors !  .It is quite a simple job to replace them and I guess you could just buy 1 new one and try swopping front or rear one at a time.I dont think they are that expensive. | ||
| S21125r |
Rogue just diagnosed a similar problem with an leaking intake boot few posts up/down. If you have tuner pro and a cable then some logged data will tell a pretty good story. If not then consider putting the stock ECM and stock exhaust on and ride long enough to see if the AFV values start to radically diverge from 100%. Purely speculation but you may not see the AFV diverge on the EBR ECM like you will on the stock one - At least Rogue didn't on his issue. If the AFV goes way high on one cylinder then it's either not getting enough fuel (clogged injector) or it's getting too much air (intake boot leak) for that cylinder. If both are way high or way low then perhaps you have a fuel pump or regulator issue. If one is way low then perhaps a leaking injector. Also remotely possible to that if the TPS isn't calibrated, or IAT, O2 & coolant temp sensor are not responding correctly then the ECM could be calculating the wrong corrections, but I think you'd see CEL error codes for most of those as they have fault check I believe. Barring an obscure mechanical issue like a blown head gasket or something, the only things in the air/fuel control loop that don't have internal fault checks built into the ECM logic are the injector clog and/or boot leak scenario - although you should see those issues via AFV #s on a stock ECM as it tries to compensate. So my money is on one of those being the issue as those two seem to be the most common failure mode, but don't rule out an electrical/grounding issue. Good luck. | ||
| Craigsmoney |
Thanks for the input s21125, I just read rogue's post, and I'll look into that. What do you mean AFV's? I just got home from work and I'm having a brain fart on that. I'm also going to check the crank sensor, and remove the fuel pump to check for crap in the tank. Cheers Craig | ||
| Dannybuell |
air fuel values | ||
| Craigsmoney |
ah, so the 02 reading would be the best indicator of that I guess. So I just checked the intake boots for leaks. they are in great shape, and no signs of cuts or holes. I removed the CSP sensor, and it was clean. still trying to get the fuel pump out. Can it be wiggled out with removing the rear swing arm? | ||
| Firemanjim |
Adaptive fuel values. And check the harness ground at clutch side near front head, had one that was loose and gave weird symptoms. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Waas fuel pressure still good at 400rpm as called for in manual. And pump can sneak out with swingarm attached but shock etc unbolted.Need giant snap ring pliers! | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
very giant snap/slip ring pliers! seriously that thing is a beast | ||
| 1125rcya |
How many miles? I would start by replacing the spark plugs. That would probably tell a story in its self! Valves need adjusted? Again miles | ||
| Zac4mac |
I haven't posted anything about injectors except speculation a rider at Daytona may have had sand in his. Avalaugh and Colintornado have been down that road tho IIRC. | ||
| Craigsmoney |
I got the fuel pump out yesterday, and inspected it. It looks new. Squeaky clean. I decided to install the stock ecm and muffler (looks and sounds way better with the barker) and I'm going to see if the stock ecm picks up some codes. I did look at the AFV and the front was 110, and the rear was 100. What do those numbers represent, and what are normal. Keep in mind I haven't ridden it yet, just idled it in the garage. 1125rcya, I replaced the spark plugs when I did my valve adjustment about 3000 km's ago. I haven't got to an oil change interval. and the bike only had 22000 km's. I will finish putting it together today, and take if for a spin to see what happens. I'll also check the fuel pressure at 4000 RPM Thanks for the help guys, it's been great. | ||
| Timebandit |
My mind must be going, I thought for sure it was Zack that had made those injector posts, but I couldn't find them either. Now we know why. Sorry for the bum steer.  | ||
| Craigsmoney |
no worries mate | ||
| Craigsmoney |
UPDATE Went for a long ride today, and it is still upto it's same bag of tricks. I Checked the AFV's after the ride and they were 99.5F and 100R. so pretty close I'll say. Colintornado, can you post the link to the fuel injector fix you did? Also, fuel injectors from HD in Canada are 175 bucks each. Is there a place to get them cheaper? Thanks for your help. Craig | ||
| S21125r |
Craig - I'm not sure I would spend money on injectors just yet. Right now your AFV are in the normal range which suggest all is well on the fueling side. However it does look like the front cylinder leaned out 10% over the course of the ride, so I would ride some more to see if the trend continues and eventually sets a CEL for AFV imbalance. If the AFV continue to stay normal then I would start looking in the ignition circuit. | ||
| Colintornado |
Here is the link to "avalaughs" problem with an injector.... I guess I was wrong when I said I thought new injectors were cheap ! http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/620853.html?1301693191 | ||
| Redcrrider |
You know, coils do fail, so that maybe the problem. Sometimes that don't fail completely either. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Redcrrider ~ I was thinking about the coil pack too. Labor being what it is.... can you reverse the coil packs? | ||
| Craigsmoney |
Danny, I thought of reversing the coil packs, but what would that do? The front coil pack was replaced under warranty. Maybe I should call and get a price on one for the rear. Sorry about the delay in posting. I went for a nice long ride this past weekend. Clocked in over 2000km's. On the way I checked the AFV, and they were mostly spot on. The last time I checked they were 99.5 and 100. One time early in the trip it was 99.5 and 104.5. Front and rear respectively. On my journey I stopped in to see my brother. He is an automotive technician with almost 20 yrs experience. He knows his shit. He is stumped. We checked for vacuum leaks around the the intake, and nothing was found. The O2 reading are the same, and didn't spike at all when the intake cleaner was being sprayed. And the bike's idle didn't smooth out at all when the injector cleaner was added to the system. I'm wondering if I have a lose timing chain. Usually a timing problem makes it run like a dog all the time. I don't know anymore...errrr | ||
| Dannybuell |
if the coil pack was damaged on installation was what I was trying to convey... | ||
| S21125r |
There is a fairly good diagnostic section in the electrical manual that will walk you through testing the ignition side. The fueling side relies more on trouble codes for diagnostics and I got the impression that you don't have any DTC clues to work from so you may need to run the full test procedure for every sensor and wiggle test every switch/relay/wire. Don't forgot the secondary sensors like Bank Angle Sensor or Side Stand Switch (if Canada bikes use SSS?). Out side of that, get a compression tester and leak down tester to make sure you don't have any mechanical issues with the top end. Might not hurt to find an old school mechanic (your brother maybe?) who has an oscilloscope and knows how to use it well. They can look at secondary ignition waveforms to see if there is a missfire in much the same way as some OBDII compliant cars look for misfires. They can also compare them to the O2 sensor waveforms to tell you which cylinder is misfiring and why depending on the shape of the wave form and how the O2 sensor responded. You really have a hair puller there so I don't envy you... | ||
| Craigsmoney |
I'm thinking of buying another, and using this as a parts bike. It's too bad it is such a PITA to do anything with the front cylinder. How much smoke should be coming out of the engine breather when the engine is hot? |
