| Author | Message | ||
     General_tso |
Getting ready for 2012 Track Day season and am interested in learning if anyone has experience with the AK Gas Cartridges or the EBR Showa Big Piston Forks. Recommendations? | ||
| Jdugger |
Well, AK-GAS are about double what that set of BPF's would cost... The AK-Gas are very plush. Shockingly so, really, but also amazing on bumpy tracks. If you don't like a lot of front end feedback (racket), there's no question which is better. | ||
| Trojan |
The Showa BPF forks are fitted as standard to the Suzuki GSXR100 and Kawasaki ZX6R now (amongst others I'm sure) and they work very very well indeed. With a little tuning they are excellent and a lot less money than AK or Ohlins equivalents. If you ride on the road as well as track days then I would go for the BPF forks  | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
I think it's safe to say that the AK Gas cartridge kit would be better than the BPF. At $2000 for the AK Gas kit as opposed to $1200 for the BPF, though, I'd say that the BPF would probably be the better value. Is it worth it to you to spend the extra $800 for something that is better but probably not hugely better? | ||
| Sprintst |
Are you confident you have the stock systems set up correctly? | ||
| Jdugger |
The BPF forks are probably compare to the AK-20s, not AK-GAS. With the gas charged dampers, there's a certain softness, a certain smoothness... I can't describe it... you just have to ride them. They feel distinctly different than an oil based damper. | ||
| General_tso |
Sprint... I would not claim that my current set-up is optimized but I think they are pretty close. With that said, I am looking to upgrade for both practical (better performance) and impractical (there's something satisfying about putting cool stuff on your bike) reasons. I'm not planning on racing but do chase lap time improvements so the fundamental question at this point is the relationship between the dollars and confidence. Thank you all for the feedback | ||
| Sprintst |
What are you doing for the rear shock? (or have you already) (Message edited by sprintst on November 28, 2011) | ||
| General_tso |
EBR Showa Race. I have two days at VIR on it so I still have some work to do to get it dialed in. | ||
| Trojan |
I think it's safe to say that the AK Gas cartridge kit would be better than the BPF. You have to remember that the BPF forks are 'new' technology compared to previous cartridge forks, so even though they are cheaper they are significantly better in design to start with. If you were to get BPF forks and then spend another $500 on a K-Tech or equivalent upgrade kit you would have a brilliant set of forks for road or track. Fitting aftermarket cartidges to existing forks is always just a compromise unfortunately and will never overcome design deficiencies in older design forks, although they can of course work very well indeed. | ||
| Jdugger |
Tojan, Have you ridden an AK-GAS equipped bike? BPF is neat, sure, but it's still an oil bath fork. The gas charged stuff is its own category. | ||
| Rodrob |
I have to agree with Jdugger on this. If you've followed our Higbee 1190RS story, you know that we swapped out the brand new Ohlins that come on the 1190RS, for Shawn's old DSB 1125 forks with the AK GAS, and the Ohlins shock for a Penski. The difference is not subtle. I finally got a chance to ride our 1190 myself at the CODE Race clinic, and on the California Speedway AMA track. The AK GAS with the Penski shock, is the best suspension I have ever experienced. The bike is on rails. Totally predictable. Even after riding on the big, turny AMA track, I was not tired at the end of the session like usual. The bike is so smooth it encourages you to relax. That being said, this setup will not take seconds off your lap times in and of itself. It will encourage confidence to push, but if your technique is not up to it, you will fall down. Shawn told me that he thought the setup would take .5 seconds off my lap time right away, but as I improved, would make it quicker for me to achieve pro race pace. It's gonna be very hard to go back to the Showa/Ohlins setup I have on my 1125R track bike. Shawn was the development rider for the EBR Showa race stuff. He says they are very good, great for the money. But not on the same level as the AK Gas/Penski, if price is no object. He has not recommended that I upgrade my setup yet, as he feels that the suspension is not yet the limiting factor in my times. He said to save the money until that becomes the case and spending 4Gs on suspension is the only way left to go faster without building a motor. | ||
| General_tso |
Rodrob, My experience is as you describe regarding confidence. As I'm sure all on this thread can attest, properly set-up suspension can take an oh S@*t corner entry / exit and convert it to a non-event. And yes, the concept of not spending the $$ until suspension is THE limiting factor has definitely been on my mind. Having completed the Code School what do you expect the impact will be on your riding? | ||
| Rodrob |
The Superbike School and the CODE Race programs are excellent. I learned more about performance riding in the four levels of the Superbike School than I had in the years of riding prior. The CODE RACE program gave me a much needed tuneup for my racing as the instructor immediately identified a couple of bad habits I had slipped into over the past season. Working on different lines, throttle, braking and shifting in the context of racing and in a controlled environment is really productive. And smoking the BMW's on the 1190RS was a gas! | ||
| Trojan |
He says they are very good, great for the money. But not on the same level as the AK Gas/Penski, if price is no object. Exactly my point. You have to decide if you are good enough to get the best from the 'better' setup and whether spending the extra $800+ is worth it for your experience level and use. If you only do track days rather than racing, will 0.5 seconds off yoru lap time really be worth the extra money? I've been to a lot of track days where you see average riders with mega buck kit wobbling around getting nowhere near the potential of their bikes. I'm not saying you fit into this category of course, but you need to be very truthful with yourself about what your level of riding is and what you need to make you faster. Could that $800 be spent on classes/race school or even decent leathers/helmet than on expensive suspensions parts. Maybe a new set of tyres or even just having your stock suspension professionally set up would improve your lap times by a lot more? 90% of riders will not get to the limit of PBF forks or appreciated the difference between these and more expensive options. If you are a professional racer and someone else is picking up the tab, then it could be a different story | ||
| Therealassmikeg |
"Shawn was the development rider for the EBR Showa race stuff. He says they are very good, great for the money. But not on the same level as the AK Gas/Penski, if price is no object. He has not recommended that I upgrade my setup yet, as he feels that the suspension is not yet the limiting factor in my times. He said to save the money until that becomes the case and spending 4Gs on suspension is the only way left to go faster without building a motor." Rodrob, That sounds like good solid advice. I have a question though... You and Shawn switched out the Ohlins components for his race components which he spent lots of time developing and is more comfortable with. Understanding you did this to save set up time do you feel like you abandoned technology that could be even better? Do you have any intentions on trying to tune the Ohlins components? What will happen when he wants his stuff back? (Message edited by therealassmikeg on December 04, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
> What will happen when he wants his stuff back? You put AK-GAS cartridges in the Ohlins forks, that's what. | ||
| Therealassmikeg |
Come on Jim even you would salivate at having a chance to run and tune the Ohlins . ...and I honestly think it's a valid question. | ||
| Jdugger |
Not really. I've ridden forks with the 25mm Ohlins cartridges in them. (The 1190RS uses the new 30mm, I believe.) They are fine. Very nice really. They aren't in the same league with AK-GAS. | ||
| Rodrob |
The original Ohlins forks are at Traxxion Dynamics getting AK Gas inserts as we speak. However, this is not to imply in any way that the Ohlins forks are not exceptional forks. All you have to do is look at the guys who are wining on them. The only implication here, is that I am listening to my rider, who feels confident in, and has lots of experience with, the AK Gas forks. It's all about feel. What feel do you like? What gives you the feedback you need to have confidence in your knowledge of the traction limit? We need to win now! Not months or weeks form now. Our survival depends on it due to my thin wallet. I would be a fool to buy the best bike, put the best rider on it, and then not give him the setup in which he is confident, and expect to win. Perhaps there is untapped potential in the Ohlins suspension that we are abandoning. But given the choice between abandoning rider potential (confidence) and technology potential, technology gets my boot every time. | ||
| Jgarner99 |
And we are all behind you, Rodrob. | ||
| Rodrob |
In re-reading my post, it occurred to me that it might have come off as hostile. I did not intend it to be so. | ||
| D_adams |
Nope, not at all. Sounds like smart business to me. Same thing with tires. I didn't like the way the original tires felt, so I switched to a different brand because of past experience with them. Noticed an immediate difference in character and handling with the bike, and I'm just riding on the street. | ||
| Therealassmikeg |
Thanks for your reply Rob. I appreciate your candor. I'm only asking this since I'm assuming the the Ohlins front shocks supplied have the compression and rebound in seperate legs, and after researching a little see they're also upgradable to the electronic damping setup. Maybe they are a previous model I don't know. This is not to say any of this speculation on my part is or could be better ever. I do quite understand the logic behind all this and can't argue the fact that proven technology is best at this point. You've put a lot of thought into this and I'm in no way trying to insult you, I'm just asking questions Keep up the great work! | ||
| Jdugger |
> the Ohlins front shocks supplied have the compression and rebound in seperate legs That's correct. Starting with the 30mm cartridges, Ohlins uses one damper in each fork tube instead of two. This is exactly how AK-GAS dampers function. | ||
| Rodrob |
No insult implied or taken. It's a worthy discussion. A different rider, might have made a completely different choice. I would really like to have the time and money to see just how the Ohlins could be sorted out. But since Max at Traxxion stepped up with sponsorship, it was a no brainer. I am also curious to see how the Showa setup from E B R on my track 1125R compares to the AK Gas. Now that I have a high benchmark to compare to, will the Showa even be in the ballpark? (Message edited by Rodrob on December 06, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
> will the Showa even be in the ballpark I had the Showa kit on my 'B' bike. They are good cartridges, but are oil bath, not gas. You know that almost pillowy cushion feel the GAS dampers have? And, the way they are soft and smooth in the travel? The way bumps just disappear and you don't get nearly as much nervous feedback in the bars? You don't get that with the oil dampers. That's not saying the Showa aren't good -- they are quite nice, actually -- but the gas dampers have a distinct feel. I have the Showa shock, too, and I actually like it a bit better than the Penske triple. It has a tiny bit more range of travel, but I think the main reason I like the Showa better is the 575 spring vs the 550 Penske recommended for me. I'm going to bump spring rates and re-try the Penske... | ||
| General_tso |
I did not expect this thread to be as valuable as it has turned out to be. Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming. | ||
| Therealassmikeg |
I'm wondering if Goeff May won the Homestead using the factory Ohlins? any guesses? I'm glad this hasn't turned into an oil thread... | ||
| Jdugger |
> I'm wondering if Goeff May won the Homestead using the factory Ohlins? any guesses? My suspicion is yes, but I can't confirm. He has posted here before about the Ohlins kit. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/158 664/627658.html?1295460143 I know Geoff sets the bike up tremendously stiff. He's a fair bit lighter than I am, and uses a rear shock spring more than 100lb/in stiffer than I do. Yowsa. (Message edited by jdugger on December 07, 2011) |
