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Archive through June 24, 2011Aj201030 06-24-11  11:48 am
Archive through June 22, 2011Aj201030 06-22-11  04:30 pm
         

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Posplayr
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 02:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Lampo - That is very interesting especially going from an 18 pole to 12 pole design.

If the amount of oiling is the same and the mounting is the same them we can conclude that the ability to dissipate heat between the 08 and the 09 designs are the same. If 08's doesn't burn this way we can conclude two factors:

a.) the 09 generate more power and/or

b.) even at the same power the 09 is more susceptible because the power is concentrated in 12 poles v.s. 18 poles

It obviously was not designed correctly.

In a.) above the increase in the power output is likely due to an increased magnetic strength. I'm guessing perhaps that the reason for going from 18 poles back to 12 poles is to get larger and stronger magnet into the same space claim. So my guess is this new design is has higher capacity and is capable of delivering more power and in the process burning out the stator.

Without having a properly designed stator rotor cooling arrangement I can only offer the following as it will help, but not sure if it will work:

1.) get a SERIES/R like the Compufire of CycleElectric. It will not short the windings which is when the stator windings really get hot.

2.) Work with a stator winder to
a.) make sure he is using high temperature conductive epoxy/powder coat for this application. Power coat typically cures at 400 degF and I have seen my on GS stator brown in only 250 miles which I suspect takes at least 500 degF to do.
b.) Increase the wire size in the windings and even if it means reducing windings. For a SERIES R/R the power dissipated in the stator should decrease as the inverse squared of the wire diameter. For example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

AWG______Dia-In_Ohm/Km__Power reduction
12 0.0808 5.211 62.9%
13 0.072 6.571 79.3%
14 0.0641 8.286 100.0%


This is because when the SERIES R/R is not conducting there is no power in the stator and when the SERIER R/R is conducting the power in the stator is proportional to the wire resistance. For the same number of turns wire resistance goes down as diameter goes up as shown above. So changing up two wire sizes from AWG 14 to AWG 12 would reduce the power in the stator to 62% of the AWG 14 power.

If the windings have to be reduced to accomplish this, the peak power will still be the same but getting up to that level there may be a drop in available power. Putting in a beefy Lithium battery may solve that small issue.

http://www.nicecycle.com/Shorai-Motorcycle-Battery -p/lfx14a1-bs12.htm?utm_source=google+product&utm_ medium=versafeed&utm_term=lfx14a1+bs12&utm_campaig n=vehicles+parts+land+vehicles+motorcycles&utm_con tent=shorai+lithium+ultra+low+weight+motorcycle+ba ttery+14+ah+pbeq+12+volt+&v_traceback=c0223_1739_f 0623_0255&Click=3030
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Posplayr
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 02:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Aj2010 - Is the modification to open one of the windings?????

That makes no sense if you are using a SERIES R/R.

going from 18 to 12 pole and then turning off some of those windings is only serving to concentrate the power to a few windings which causes them to burn. The power needs to be distributed across the entire stator so it can give the heat the best chance to get out or be cooled by the oil.
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Lampo
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 04:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"It obviously was not designed correctly."

+1 LOL, that has to be the understatement of the decade. The '09 stator/rotor AND the 'harness fix' both are equally incompetent. Someone had a stroke of genius with a huge FAIL.

My guess is the '08 was designed by Rotax, the '09 was designed by an unnamed tractor manufacturer (not John Deere!) that we all love to hate..(well most of us). And they just don't want to suck it up and admit it, and make it right.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 05:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Man, and to think I paid $1,000 more for having the privilege of owning a '09 vs. an '08...
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Court
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>So changing up two wire sizes from AWG 14 to AWG 12

Is that one wire size or two?

I've got a piece of #13 Solid here . . . but it's getting tough to buy.
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Posplayr
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I just looked at the pictures that AJ2000 posted between 08 and 09 rotors. I have never seen a rotor discolored like that 09 rotor and on the Suzuki's there are plenty of crispy stators.

Just based on the rotor discoloration I would say the 09 stator/rotor is a lost cause. It is probably possible to improve things but unless you can substantially reduce the resistive loses in the copper it will continue to over heat.
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Posplayr
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Court - those were examples only; you would need to see what your wire is. However the example was a two step up in wire size.
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Aj2010
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 06:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A few comments based on what I've read here and my understanding or lack there of. It seems to me that if the stators are almost always putting out max power for a given rpm (most cases 5000 and lower) without the regulator shunting anything. Then it would not matter what type of regulator we use, because the regulator will only start regulating once the available power exceeds the demand. This makes sense to me BUT would not explain the extremely heated regulators many have noted on here.

Now having looked at both stator designs (08 and 09) it seems to me that (not knowing which design generates more heat) that the 08 should be able to dissipate more heat. With it's 18 poles there is a lot more wire surface exposed to air/oil on the external wrappings of those poles. Plus there is less wire per pole generating heat.

I do also realize that with lower output the 08 design should also generate less heat by default.

I don't know that my going with the compufire regulator is going to help. If the 08 will be at max output at lower rpm then the regulator won't be doing any switching of legs off anyway. So it's more just the idea that switching legs off rather then shunting power to ground is the right way to go about it. Higher rpm's are another story but since there is more oil flying around to cool things it may well not matter. Does any one know at what rpm the rotors of the two designs saturate? Or is it the stator core that saturates?

(Message edited by AJ2010 on June 24, 2011)
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Black
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 07:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't know about you guys, but I have kind of enjoyed this thread. Posplayr, I'm kind of with you in that I always thought the problem had to be either a bad batch of varnish or insufficient wire size. That's not exactly what you said, but I think I follow your argument. Froggy, yes it is heat related. I think any motor, or turned the other way, generator will eventually fail from heat. Roger on that one. Lampo, thanks for the photo, says that the "fix" might not have been properly installed.....or worse. Roger to Aj2010. I guess what I would like to see is Harley...or somebody, be able to say that "x" percentage failed due to burned/melted windings. What I would really like to know is how many returned stators are really all right. Not that any of you may care, but I really appreciate nobody posting the Wikipedia version of Lenz's Law, etc. I thought that Posplayer's Wikipedia post was good, actually. Maybe Harley will, one of these days, tell us more about the failures. In the mean time I will take Buellhusker's advice and swing the cat counterclockwise. I don't believe we can solve this problem here, but enjoyed the exchange. See you guys on the flip side!
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Posplayr
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 09:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

AJ2000,
I posted some actual measurements on a Suzuki GS1100 which is a carburetted CV bike. The load requirements are going to be different as your fuel pump and EFI draw more current as RPM increases. The CV tends to flatten out as you can see in the CF current demand curvers. On the other hand you can see how the SHUNT keeps climbing till it saturates. All these current were measured with an AC current clamp on a stator leg.

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charg ing/RR_Tutorial.pdf

Yes if the voltage is always low then neither a SHUNT or SERIES should regulate and so the power in the stator will be about the same.

It seems like someone tried to improve the 08 design for an anticipated increased power demand, and over did it the 09 design.

So has anybody here gone back to the 08 setup on teh 09 bike and measured the current or battery charging effects? Do you run out of juice at high or low RPM?

Black - I use Wikipedia alot, sometime it leads to more information that you want or need but I figure that is better than not enough.

If someone could measure the currents then it would help figure out what was going on.
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Aj2010
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Posplayr, I've just installed an 08 flywheel/rotor on my 09. The 08 stator will require new leads to be soldered on before being installed. I should be able to take what measurements you want. Hopefully in a few days.
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Finedaddy1
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Posplayr - After showing my burnt stator to a gentleman at work, that used to work on electric motors, he asked me what I had done to fix my problem and I mentioned to him the "drop down" done by Custom Rewind, his reply was pretty much what you had mentioned, the wire size should have been bigger instead of smaller "I didn't think he knew what he was talking about at the time".

If I have any issues I'll just send it back and get it rewound w/bigger wire, I'm sure Gary @ Custom Rewind would have no problem doing this.

Great stuff guys, I'm really starting to understand things a little better.
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Dannybuell
Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2011 - 01:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Posplayr - THX for shining a light into the darkness.
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Dannybuell
Posted on Monday, June 27, 2011 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

stock ECM/Barker: Nice ride today same ride as the my first CEL (check engine light) sys error P1047 a couple of weeks ago. it happened again. The darn electrical system stays up with stock ECM/Barker but gets CEL lights when zipping around the country side at 5000-6000 rpm. The race ECM takes care of the CEL light but gives a low battery light. The race module/low battery light makes going out into the Oregon countryside for a Sunday ride a scary proposition.

The 'something in your system is failing' from E-B-R is the same answer I got last year when I had the same issue. I have put 8K miles on the bike since then with the stock ECM and no system voltage issues or electrical failures. There should be an race ECM option where 100% of the OEM electrical demands; the fans going on at stock temperatures, the stator harness relay triggering algorithm, things like that.
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Dannybuell
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Erik Buell Racing just got back to me:

Iíve sent this to a colleague for a further detailed answer.

He was the lead powertrain integration engineer, and completed the OE calibrations.

Thanks,

Michael
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Spiffious
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 02:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This discussion has been great. Looking forward to getting this all figured out.



As to my original topic, I did end up taking my SV1000s to WV this weekend. We had a great time. I certainly enjoyed not worrying about a possible stator failure. If the Buell were my only bike, I would've definitely taken it, but I think I made the right decision for me for this trip.


PS. I hit a bear with my SV on the way home. An effin' bear. Somehow kept the bike up and it suffered minimal damage (bent rotor, etc.) The bear did run off, so he should be ok too. But man, who hits bears with motorcycles? Im glad it was the SV and not the buell for that... would rather my CR be shiny and nice.
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Dannybuell
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 03:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Whoa! A bear? How big was it?
Good job keeping the bike up!
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Froggy
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Suzuki should recall the SV because the bear repellent ain't working. : )

More proof that **** happens, just enjoy the trip however you can, sounds like a great adventure.
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Ezblast
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 03:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

WOW!
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Aj2010
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 03:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Finally finished the wiring this morning. The 08 stator and flywheel are in, the Compufire R/R is on. I have not taken it for a ride yet but did start it up to check for oil leaks. As soon as the CT rose above cold, I checked battery voltage. At idle 14.7 rising to 14.8 with a little throttle. I do not usually see figures this high with the stock (09) stator/flywheel and R/R. I do remember reading that the Compufire is supposed to be able to charge at a higher rate even at lower rpm's. Although I don't see how, it sure does appear to be the case. Anyway I am happy to see those numbers, I was expecting something much lower.
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Dannybuell
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Aj2010 I am crossing my fingers ! Are you using the harness?
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Aj2010
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 04:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dannybuell my truncated harness has been removed and some of the connectors have been used to replace the stock positive and negative connector (the stock stuff was not re-usable) and the grey R/R to stator connector allowed me to double the number of terminals (two positives and two negatives). The stock terminals also fit into the Compufire terminal block, with some modifying. Compufire R/R sent with connector and terminals but the other connector (stator half) has no terminals. I guess the stock Harley stuff is supposed to fit. Anyway I am happy with how it has gone together, even if it did take way tooooooo long fiddling around with some of the terminals.
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Dannybuell
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Aj2010 - Can you do some pictures?
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Avc8130
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

FWIW:
I contacted Compufire...they specifically stated that they have NO products suitable for use on Buell 1125 series bikes.
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Ezblast
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 09:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes - so what is the stock number of the Compufire R/R that you did use?
EZ
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Aj2010
Posted on Friday, July 01, 2011 - 01:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah!!!!!!! My Compufire does not appear to be one of the ones only rated for seven miles. I've been working on the lower half of my R/R mounting bracket / heat sink / heat shield / cool air duct ..... even getting my cardboard template built is hurting my little brain ..... so I went for a ride and just used the ugly steel part I'd built a few days ago. I think the only reason my regulator was warm, was the surrounding warm engine parts. The back of the regulator was not warm at all. Voltage seems to move around anywhere from 13.9 up to 14.8 I am happy with those numbers. I will take some pictures once I have the aluminum mounting bracket built......

Dennon needs to start finishing things off and prettying things up ..... My bike is rapidly declining into "RAT BIKE" status. I don't think the curious pedestrian was entirely convinced that my bike is a 2009, parked next to my buddy's flawless 1991 VFR.
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Dannybuell
Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No word yet from Erik Buell Racing or anyone else on ECM. Next weeks 1190 debut at Mid Ohio must be dominating.
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Posplayr
Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

CompuFire Regulator #55402
for 40 Amp 3-Phase
Charging Systems
Dennis Kirk Part #: 209632
Manufacturer Part #: 55402
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Dannybuell
Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Posplayr - CompuFire #s in my database now. THX.
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