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99buellx1
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 03:06 pm: | 
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quote:CR Dyno from Moto...
And here lies the issue with comparing number sheets from different dynos, which this entire thread is based off of.
Means little of nothing, sorry Cowboy. |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 03:49 pm: |
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I'd have to agree completely with 99Buell.
That, and your Buell is modified with a race ECM, aftermarket pipe and filter.
Was there anything done to the MOTOUSA bikes?
I have a hard time giving a shit if the BMW S1000R has more HP than my bike, because I'm not the type to be insecure about it. Though it seems, many Buell guys ARE indeed insecure about their bike's downfalls or shortcomings. I say, who the f*ck cares? The thing is a V-twin with more fun in the tank than anything I've ever rode. Ride it and quit worrying about how many ponies you have, or what your stupid ass friends think about it.
(Message edited by drawkward on May 09, 2011) |
Stirz007
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 04:07 pm: |
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Drawk - well put.
(Message edited by Stirz007 on May 10, 2011) |
Zcat
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 04:39 pm: |
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I have owned both a Ducati Streetfighter and now a Buell 1125. The Buell was stock exhaust with an Erik Buell Racing ecm tuned for a stock pipe when I got it. My Ducati had 1 tooth down front sprocket , Termi slip-ons, HP air filter, Duc ECM upgrade and best of all a Tune-boy engine control system set up for my configuration. No doubt the Duc was faster than the 1125 initially but not THAT much faster as the graph above would have you believe. Now I have a Barker, K&N filter and Erik Buell Racing ecm calibrated for this set-up. I would have to be side by side to know for sure, but my seat of the pants dyno feels these 2 bikes are very close in performance. Both bikes were wheelie monsters when well tuned and the Duc might have just a tad more top-end charge but the Buell may have that tad more in lower rpm torque. All in all, I'm very satisfied with the Buell and really find it more fun to ride. I like this bike a lot, maybe more than any other bike I've owned in the past 38 years including a turbocharged, nitros injected 2000 ZX12R that was pushing over 300 HP easily. Now if you want to talk about scary fast......LOL! |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 04:44 pm: |
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quote:The thing is a V-twin with more fun in the tank than anything I've ever rode. Ride it and quit worrying about how many ponies you have, or what your stupid ass friends think about it.
I agree. 
Regarding the turn in, my 1125's do turn in a bit slower and need more effort than my XB and Blast, but the 1125's feel a lot more stable and are more forgiving when I fudge up. |
Jules
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 05:11 pm: |
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Never mind. I think we are talking about two different things. Usually, going faster requires more concentration. Similarly entering a turn faster requires more effort.
Yep - thanks Blake, I didn't think I'd explained myself very well... it's one of those topics that's easier to talk about than type about.
I really like the stability of the Buell as I have it set up, I think the trade-off I am talking about is more "mine" than the bikes
Yes, surprisingly you do have to actually work the handlebars in order to steer it.
LOL - fair point |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 05:34 pm: |
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Other than the track or racing, who really cares about 130 HP or 170 HP? You can do everything as fast on my 140ish HP 1125R as the other guys 180ish HP SR1000RR...and maybe even a bit easier. At least on the roads I like to ride.
The HP thing for the vast majority of riders is only good for ego. Outside of the racetrack or dragstrip, even 140 RWHP could be considered overkill. There's a reason why the manufacturers are going from HP wars to electronic aid wars. Even they are realizing only so much HP can be put to the ground and of that, much less can actually be tapped by your typical sportbike rider on the street. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 05:55 pm: |
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After going through the original and 3 top ends on my S1 in 90Kmiles. The CR suits my need for speed at 4000-6000 shift points. I don't really have to worry about hurting the motor. shifting at 4000-6000 all the time was very taxing on the sporty based s1. |
Hybridmomentspass
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 07:58 pm: |
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on the motousa charts - why is the Buell so rough looking on the dyno?
Draw nailed it on the head
As for the turn in, someone else mentioned it before - chassis set up and tires do wonders. Im not saying anyone has 'bad' tires or setup, just saying when I swapped to different tires (other than stock, went to PP) I was shocked by how quick it went into the corners.
And the second part to that is I remember reading (maybe on here, dont know) a Pegram interview where he was talking about the Buell (1125R DSB) and how well it handled, how it went into the corners quicker than he'd seen a V2 do it before on the track.
Jules (or anyone else) - thats not towards you by any means, just stating my opinion and what I'd read a while back.
Blake thanks for video, was always fun watching Eslick race on the 1125. And yes, he did amazing things on that bike (cant remember who commented on his abilities on the bike on the first page) |
Hybridmomentspass
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 08:00 pm: |
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Fresno - sorry, I meant to quote you too in my post - excellent post. And I agree ALMOST 100% with you, except I do think that they will continue to battle for the most HP, just for a 'my dick is bigger than yours' competition. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 08:48 pm: |
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except I do think that they will continue to battle for the most HP
Probably right, HP wars will never go away. But HP is not the sole objective as it once was for sure. |
Hybridmomentspass
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 08:51 pm: |
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agreed, its not everything, people ARE getting more and more interested in the electronic aids, the features (different power modes, wheelie control etc etc |
Cowboytutt
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 09:10 pm: |
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Wow, tough crowd. Regarding the "this information is useless because they are from different dyno's etc etc" I guess I failed to properly express my point. Even if the difference between dyno's is 10 hp, mine (and many other Buells as my mods are really rather generic for this board) make some good numbers that are IN THE BALL PARK of some current Jap machines.
It takes a HUGE difference in HP to make a difference on street rides and rider skill will trump HP almost all the time so "in the ball park" can get you there on the street just fine if you have the skill.
Secondly, lets disregard the numbers ALLTOGETHER and just look at the shape of the TQ curve. Only one modern bike in the whole comparison had as flat a TQ curve (the KTM). The SHAPE of the Buell's TQ curve is remarkable when compared to almost any bike out there. Forget the numbers!
Thirdly, Buell's respond much for favorably to tuning changes such as exhaust and ECMs. Name one Jap bike that can add about 16-17hp with a SLIP-ON muffler and ECM?
You can spend $700 on a full system for a Jap bike, buy a PC500 and 20 whatever for $250, then pay another $300 for a dyno tune and get maybe another 9hp??? For spending $1000+ dollars? The Jap bikes are already very well tuned from the factory and its hard to improve upon them very much.
Hot-rodding a Buell is very "cost effective" by comparison!
And even discounting everything above, the Buell is a good handling motorcycle. Properly set-up, it can still run with the pack of current sportbikes based upon its handling alone with a competant rider on board.
Which was really the point I was trying to make all along but I failed to do so. A Buell can run with modern bikes just fine with some simple tuning upgrades.
-Tutt |
Jules
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 03:36 am: |
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Jules (or anyone else) - thats not towards you by any means, just stating my opinion and what I'd read a while back.
I agree with you - I think I explained the cornering speed bit badly, I think the Buell outturns any other bike I have owned (all 40 odd of them), next tire change an ging to swap to something "different" to see what happens to the turn in but TBH it's not a criticism of the bike, I love how stable it is in turns which means I can either walk away from, or close the gap on any/all of my mates on their bikes in the curves.
As to the original topic of HP, if anyone asks me how many hrsepower the bike has I always say "plenty thanks"... |
Hybridmomentspass
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 08:44 am: |
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Jules - are you still on stock rubber on the 1125?
Like I stated, going to Pilot Powers was a completely different bike, fell into corners so easy!
Good luck, ride safe |
Sprintst
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 08:44 am: |
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To an extent, it's how you use it, not what you have.
Raised on I4 engines, and seeing/feeling/hearing Harleys, I never had much respect for twins. That is, until I bought the 1125R. What a fantastic street motor.
Oh, more power is always good, but not if you have to give up the 'twist the throttle and bring the front up' torque
Spend some time on a buddy's 1098R, and as I remember it did feel a bit stronger, but I can guarantee he wouldn't outrun me on public roads, because he couldn't outrun my Sprint ST, which is 100 lbs heavier and not nearly as responsive as the 1125
Numbers are fun. Track results are fun. Many of us live on the streets, in the real world. My 1125 does the job very well for me, and is tons of fun. Add in that it's pretty exclusive and unique, and that's a win in my book
(Message edited by sprintst on May 10, 2011) |
Mcrbuelligan
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 08:50 am: |
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the old saying '' it aint what you ride its how you ride it ''
seems to apt here. I bought 2 buells bikes because I like Eriks out the box ideas and not going with the main stream big 4 jap bikes. You know I still get the smug feeling when rack up at a bike meet that my bike will stand out from the bikes there.
I am not after a crazy bhp bike, just usability on the road , plus the 1125 handles better than any of other bikes. Plus remember its torque that moves you down the road not bhp. |
99buellx1
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 10:28 am: |
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quote:Wow, tough crowd. Regarding the "this information is useless because they are from different dyno's etc etc" I guess I failed to properly express my point. Even if the difference between dyno's is 10 hp, mine (and many other Buells as my mods are really rather generic for this board) make some good numbers that are IN THE BALL PARK of some current Jap machines.
In the Ball Park?
Yeah, left field!
I'm sorry, but I think you are still missing the point of my comment.
On the same dyno's the Buell made 119HP, where the average of the bikes you were comparing it to made 158HP.
That's nearly a 40HP difference! That is MAJOR power difference on a ~400lb machine.
(now since you are comparing a modified bike to a stock one)
So, even if you add ~16hp you are still at a 24HP disadvantage to a STOCK 1000cc bike.
That is still a big jump in power on a motorcycle.
Plus, how many of those are kept stock?
quote:Secondly, lets disregard the numbers ALLTOGETHER and just look at the shape of the TQ curve. Only one modern bike in the whole comparison had as flat a TQ curve (the KTM). The SHAPE of the Buell's TQ curve is remarkable when compared to almost any bike out there. Forget the numbers!
AGREED!
Great comment, and great way to 'read' the dyno chart.
Then you say this:
quote:Thirdly, Buell's respond much for favorably to tuning changes such as exhaust and ECMs. Name one Jap bike that can add about 16-17hp with a SLIP-ON muffler and ECM?
You can spend $700 on a full system for a Jap bike, buy a PC500 and 20 whatever for $250, then pay another $300 for a dyno tune and get maybe another 9hp??? For spending $1000+ dollars? The Jap bikes are already very well tuned from the factory and its hard to improve upon them very much.
Ok, so now we are back to comparing apples and oranges?!
Why does the inline have to have a full system in your $$$ comparison?
And, if I'm not mistaken, there are slip-ons for the Buell that are similar in price to your quoted cost of a full system on the inline bike, so i think that $$ is a moot point.
Also, the need of a $300 dyno tune, not many people do that. There are plenty of out-of-the-box combo tunes available to download into a PC that a custom tune is rarely done. This is same as the Buell running the Erik Buell Racing ECM. These are not custom tunes, they are out-of-the-box tunes. And there is nothing wrong with that.
I do not know the power gains on an inline bike with exhaust modifications, anyone have hard numbers? (not that it really matters, any more power that they are going to make is just icing on the power cake advantage)
If you want a more even comparison, look into the 750cc. Should be more apples to apples.} |
Sprintst
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 10:45 am: |
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Why compare to a I4 in the first place?
Yes, when shopping it's a competitor in the marketplace, but if you are interested in the Buell, you probably are looking for a V twin's character, not just a bang for the buck liter bike
Direct comparison would be Ducati and KTM
(Message edited by sprintst on May 10, 2011) |
Cowboytutt
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 09:11 pm: |
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"In the Ball Park?
Yeah, left field!
I'm sorry, but I think you are still missing the point of my comment.
On the same dyno's the Buell made 119HP, where the average of the bikes you were comparing it to made 158HP.
That's nearly a 40HP difference! That is MAJOR power difference on a ~400lb machine. "
Hey, this is all in fun!. I guess I should be grateful you didn't personally insult me like Drawkward! LOL! 
Seriously, your comparisons are really not fair. The BMW is in a class in of its own and seriously skews the mean your propose of 158HP. Lets look at it another way! Of the seven bikes in the test, 5 of those bikes made between 151 and 156 HP. The BMW and perhaps the new Kawi do make much more, no doubt about it. The 1125 engine is not in that class I admit. But compared to the other bikes in the test its a difference of 11-16 HP. On open stretches of go fast road, thats still significant but not insurmountable. I'm sure we have all been surprised at times how bikes of different power outputs can run pretty even on the street. I know I have.
Furthermore, you compare a bone stock Buell and not one that has been tuned which was not my point ever. I even stated that two times. I was trying to show (much to my delight and surprise even which is why I shared the information with you guys!) how a tuned 1125 engine can actually do pretty good! Lets leave the bone-stock Buell out of it. I'm hoping you have an Erik Buell Racing ECM for your bike and perhaps a pipe. If you do, you know what a "different animal" it is compared to a stock bike.
Good point about the "canned tunes" on the newer Jap bikes. I didn't know that. I used the comparison of a full system vs a slip-on because historically slip-on mufflers have not increased power much on Jap bikes. A difference of 1-3 HP on my previous 'Busa. A full system and tune on my 'Busa could yield an increase of 8hp which is where I came up with that number.
However, with the new stock exhausts using large pre-mufflers and catalysts I wondered if your right so I tried to do a little digging. With a top-of-the-line Yosh pipe on a BMW1000rr they gained 6.39 HP. Here's the text:
"Strapping the BMW onto the dyno proved the Yosh exhaust delivers power gains throughout its 14,000 rev range. From idle to 5000 rpm the stock system actually delivers just a hair more power but as soon as the engine spins past that threshold it’s pumping out more rear tire spinning horsepower and front wheel lifting torque. The power curve features a linear progression much like stock with nearly 80 ft-lb of torque (2.38 more than stock) arriving at 11,000 rpm and a whopping 183.08 horsepower (6.39 more than stock) coming some 2300 revs later, 700 rpm shy of redline."
They do say you might get more performance value with a slip-on muffler but they didn't say how much. Here's a link:
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/802/9185/Motorcycle- Article/2010-BMW-S1000RR-Project-Bike-Part-1.aspx
So, I think my point about how much performance increase you get with a Buell compared to "other" bikes might be a good one if the most expensive pipe out there can only get you 6 more HP.
As to why compare a Buell to any inline 4? I just stumbled across the information and I was pleasantly surprised by the numbers, that's all.
Obviously, if all we cared about was HP and TQ numbers, we would all be riding something else and not our Buells and we would be having this discussion on a BMW or Kawisaki Forum and poking fun at the "poor little under-powered Buells".
Since this is a pro-Buell forum, I just thought I would share the interesting numbers to suggest that with a decent tune a Buell can perform very well indeed.
-Tutt |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 12:36 pm: |
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I really enjoyed your presentation Tutt Man. Thanks for taking time to share it. |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 04:57 pm: |
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So, what I'm getting from the above is with just a slip on and new ECM on the 1125 we're getting more gains from that than what the riders of the other brands are? |
Hybridmomentspass
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 05:04 pm: |
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can someone please help on this
"on the motousa charts - why is the Buell so rough looking on the dyno? " |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 05:09 pm: |
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"on the motousa charts - why is the Buell so rough looking on the dyno? "
So much torque, the wheel is slipping on the drum |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 05:24 pm: |
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> what I'm getting from the above is with just > a slip on and new ECM on the 1125 we're
> getting more gains from that than what the
> riders of the other brands are
I think that's a fair statement. The 1125r in stock form is really quite detuned, so one should expect as much IMHO.
The street trim power-to-displacement ratio of the 1125r is quite a bit lower than those other machines. |
Cowboytutt
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 05:52 pm: |
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Thanks Blake! Tried to keep it upbeat. I appreciate the consistency of your message on your forum.
-Tutt |
Stirz007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 05:59 pm: |
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> what I'm getting from the above is with just a slip on and new ECM on the 1125 we're getting more gains from that than what the riders of the other brands are
I got a 7% increase in HP (118 to 126) and a 6% increase in Torque (67 to 71) by changing chip and can on mine. That's at 4500 foot elevation, using the same dyno. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 06:21 pm: |
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>>> So much torque, the wheel is slipping on the drum
Fresno,
More torque at the rear wheel happens when there is more HP at the rear wheel. Torque is reported referenced to the crankshaft versus engine rpm, not at the rear wheel versus rear wheel rpm. What I'm saying is that the higher HP bikes are putting more torque to the rear wheel; that thanks to a lesser gear ratio from engine to rear wheel (lower overall drive ratio). |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 06:45 pm: |
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I was joking, Blake. Torque and HP go hand in hand. if the HP curve shifts to the left on the plot, then the torque will go up. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 07:13 pm: |
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THX Tutt |
Cowboytutt
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 07:31 pm: |
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Thanks Danny! -Tutt |
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