| Author | Message | ||
     Jdugger |
> A man of integrity, a man of good character would have stopped there. But since neither you nor I are such a person... | ||
| Bigblock |
Oh Natty, Lyndall golds? There's yer problem, atleast partly. I found the Lyndalls on my 1125 barely acceptable for my street riding, l couldn't imagine road race use! And the only racetrack use my bike has seen is the 1/4 mile. | ||
| Nattyx1 |
tell that to mr Lyndall... Seriously though, Ernie Snair and a couple of other quick guys were using for club racing. But I'm ready to try anything... waffles, school erasers, hockey pucks, whatever. Bring it on, I'll bolt it in. | ||
| Blake |
Speak for yourself JD. | ||
| Jdugger |
As it turns out, you are in no position to judge my character or integrity. I'll ask you to keep your shit stirring and personal attacks to yourself. You frequently judge others for it, so why don't you go ahead and follow your own advice? | ||
| Blake |
>>> As it turns out, you are in no position to judge my character or integrity. I can read, therefore I indeed am. | ||
| Jdugger |
Eh, it ain't worth responding anymore. As it turns out, your opinion of me is worth exactly what it cost. (Message edited by jdugger on April 12, 2011) | ||
| Avalaugh |
Nattyx1, I have gone through the motions and have read all threads regarding brakes, Inc the usual banter between the folks here all arguing. I made the decision to fit an early R1 front, never looked back since, I do miss the asthetics of the ZTL2 but that's it. If I gad gone down this road in the beginning I would of save alot of money on different pads, discs, mounting hardware and radial master cylinders. If you like the look of ZTL it can be improved on, but I like instant braking power and could not achieve this on the ZTL.   If I had more money I would of bought a radial set-up, but this old design from 10 years ago is still a huge leap forward for me in braking power. | ||
| Court |
>>>Do we know what bike that wheel and caliper set are from? I suspect you will soon learn a great deal more. Yesterday was a HUGE day, much more significant that 10-15-09, in the history of Buell. Watch closely. | ||
| Nattyx1 |
Court: you are SUCH a tease! Ava: thanks but I'm not ready to throw baby with bathwater just yet. That said- and just out of curiosity, what was your triple tree solution there? Who made it and at what cost? Thanks | ||
| Drawkward |
Little report: Using EBC Extreme Pro pads with stock rotor/mounting and stock MC at TWS two days ago leaves me again with no confidence in the braking set up on the 1125R in stock config. Fastest time was a 2:07.78 (not super fast, but not bad). I'd love to test out the new 1190RS system...maybe it would perform. (Message edited by drawkward on April 12, 2011) | ||
| 99buellx1 |
I'll say it again. Anyone with brake issues on the track, try the Erik Buell Racing 2015 race pads. http://www.EBRacing.com/shop/product9.html They work. I've had zero brake issues. I'm not the fastest guy on the track by a long shot, but I raced two days at Road America with no issues. I did manage two 3rd place finishes, a 4th....etc, so I wasn't out there sandbagging it either. RA is known to be very hard on brakes. Stock MC, stock rotor, stock mounting, stock FLUID. There is a reason that the Erik Buell Racing race team uses these pads.....they work. | ||
| Blake |
Dr. Awk, Dude. The clue should be what is offered and recommended by Erik Buell Racing. What was used to win races and multiple championships. | ||
| Steve_a |
The 1190RS brake and wheel parts should fit earlier XBs and 1125s with the exception of one issue: the wheel bearings are larger and a 5mm larger axle is used. A sleeve/spacer arrangement could be pretty readily made to compensate for that and allow the original forks to be retained. And, yes, the 1190RS wheel is cast magnesium; just as the competitive wheel is almost certainly forged aluminum. With the casting technique being developed for the 1190RS wheel, it's quite possible an aluminum wheel of the same design but thinner sections could be made almost as light, certainly within 2 pounds if not less. A $1400 forged magnesium racing wheel replacing the competitive aluminum wheel might save 2.5 pounds or so, reducing the advantage of the ZTL system to 3.5 pounds -- or to put it another way -- 25 percent heavier than the 1190RS front wheel and brake system. | ||
| Court |
I have to say . . . it always brightens my day when you visit with your bag of facts!  It's great to hear from you! | ||
| Hootowl |
And it does all this whilst still being street legal, whereas the racing wheel is not. Amazing. | ||
| Drawkward |
Blake Dude. Buy me $185 brake pads and I'll stop bitching. I'd rather have tires I can trust and deal with the braking issue by modulating my braking markers. Not all of us have that kind of change to drop on some god damn brake pads. EDIT: The reason I posted in the first place is that a really fast CMRA endurance team is on EBC Extremes as well as a pretty fast expert racer in the CMRA who kept up with Ty Howard at TWS...they/he has no problems with the pads. Same compound, different braking system. Mine isn't performing. (Message edited by drawkward on April 13, 2011) | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Yet people seem to have money to throw at front end swaps and the like, which I'm sure cost more than the pads. Believe me, I'm not trying to defend the cost of the pads, I agree that they are expensive as all hell......but, they work as advertised. I have a set of the EBC's as backup pads, solely because of the cost....but, when the time comes, it's very likely that I will spring for the Erik Buell Racing pads again. And FWIW, the EBC's I purchased from a fast racer who has completed the Daytona 200. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
And, yes, the 1190RS wheel is cast magnesium; just as the competitive wheel is almost certainly forged aluminum. Thought that was the case. 6 point something pounds lighter seemed like too much just from the ZTL weight savings alone. I know that show was mostly a marketing piece, but comparing wheel/brake assemblies in which the wheels are of different metals doesn't entirely on the up and up. | ||
| Blake |
>>> ... god damn brake pads. Considering that kind of attitude, not sure what kind of help you expect. I don't know any racer who holds brake pads in such low esteem. Perspective is valuable. A full set (two pairs) of the EBC Pro Extreme front brake pads for a conventional dual disk bike normally run (MSRP) from $150 to $194 depending on the specific application. You assume the issue is with the pads. It may be. EBC may have done a poor job designing for the Buell. Wouldn't be the first time. Then again, the issue may be elsewhere. Moisture, under-performing brake fluid, air in the fluid/lines/caliper may also contribute to brake fade. You are racing. You need a brake system designed for that task. Get one. See Erik Buell Racing. Problem solved. | ||
| Blake |
Harlan, There you go again.  >>> Thought that was the case. 6 point something pounds lighter seemed like too much just from the ZTL weight savings alone. As Steve noted, the other wheel was most likely a forged aluminum alloy model. Cost for forged aluminum is not much if any different than for cast magnesium. Also as Steve noted some time ago, the Erik Buell Racing bolt together (not monoblock) caliper is bulky and so heavy and can be made significantly lighter. Once mass production gets underway, that will likely happen. I'd not be surprised to see the weight drop another couple of pounds as the system is further optimized. >>> comparing wheel/brake assemblies in which the wheels are of different metals doesn't \i[sic] entirely on the up and up. Incredible. So you would have Erik Buell Racing compare cast aluminum to forged aluminum wheels in order to be "on the up and up"?  The intent was to compare stock front wheel/brake assemblies, the best/lightest available. How is that not on the up-and-up? (Message edited by Blake on April 13, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
Hoot, Why would a racing wheel not be street legal? | ||
| Blake |
Dr Awk,
| ||
| Jdugger |
> Why would a racing wheel not be street legal? Many of them aren't. The Buell cast Mg wheels, for example, aren't. I suspect they haven't been through a DOT approval or something like that, but it's rather common for race wheels to not be street legal. | ||
| Jdugger |
Blake, That quote is about a year old. I'm a fair bit faster now than this time last year, and my opinion of the EBC pads is not as favorable presently. I use them for practice days now, but they aren't as good as the Nissan pads Erik Buell Racing sells. I'd say they are better than the performance friction ones, though. That was Eslick's preferred pad, but I just can't make them work. They require a TON of lever pressure to really grab. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Blake, A fair comparison would be to compare mag wheels to mag wheels--anything else is pretty much apples to oranges. I guarantee you most of the 6+ pounds was due to the difference in the weight of the wheels. I love the ZTL setup, but I don't like false comparisons and conclusions. If the wheel weight wasn't a factor, then why not just pull the brake components alone and weigh them? | ||
| Jdugger |
> I guarantee you most of the 6+ pounds was due to the difference in the weight of the wheels. It's some of it... But, don't underestimate the ZTL-2 vs. "ZTL-1190". The ZTL caliper is VERY heavy, more than 2 typical Japanese sportbike calipers, for sure, and for the 1190 version they stick it in a mill and removed quite a bit of material. Don't hold me to this, but I'm under the impression the ZTL-1190 caliper is milled so much they actually cut away the grooves for the outer dust seals. That could get it into the range of "less than 2 Japanese calipers" I also notice they leave the axles out of the comparison. My Buell axle weighs more than my buddies 08 CBR1000RR axle, though not by much. (I don't remember the exact amount) I'd be curious about the fork legs, too. I know with single sided swing arms, they actually weigh more than a double-sided design because of the additional rigidity required. I kinda wonder about that of the ZTL approach, too. In short, it was a neat demonstration for marketing purposes, as you note, but it's hardly a comprehensive investigation of the total system's advantage. Fun to watch, though. | ||
| Drawkward |
Blake, whether you believe it or not, your holier than thou attitude deserves the disrespect you get from some of us. The EBC Extremes, like I said work if I change my braking points. I'm not putting pads in low esteem...I don't have the money for the top of the line (apparently Buell needs special pads) like some guys do, so I have to pick my battles. Like I said, I'd rather have sticky tires, or perhaps you missed that. The issue is not with the pads. The EBC Extremes, I'm sure, work great for other bikes with efficient braking systems. The stock ZTL2 is shit on the track IMO. With comparable brake pads (I'm sure there's no differnce in the compound from a GSXR to a Buell's pad) the ZTL2 system is outperformed by other manufacturer's twin rotor setup. My whole point is that you can see no fault in the stock ZTL2 system when there are blaring problems. I shouldn't have to buy over $400 worth of upgrades to make the brake system work on a bike that was touted as "ready for the track"......talk about false advertising. My system is bled properly and is pumping fresh Motul RBF600 before TWS. The problem was with the ZTL2. (Message edited by drawkward on April 13, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
> If the wheel weight wasn't a factor So, a lot of the advantage of the ZTL approach IS the wheel. It's inherently lighter because it doesn't have to be as strong. That's why if you take a current model 1125r and compare front wheel weights to something like a 2010 CBR1000RR the total weights of wheels, calipers, lines, bolts, axles, etc, are within a pound or so of each other. The Buell wheel is a cheap, heavy, cast POS by modern sportbike standards, but as a total system it turns out to be roughly comparable to the Honda. Now, compare REAR wheels and you see the difference. The current Japanese rear wheels are dramatically lighter than a late-model 1125r. The Buell wheel and pulley are very heavy. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
When did $185 brake pads become $400+ of upgrades? Ok, we get it, the EBC's dont work for you. How much were they costing you? And how many of them, ill performing or otherwise, did you go through trying to "fix" the issue? How much $$ in fluid? Would it have been cheaper to just go for the Erik Buell Racing pad to start with? ..and if the Erik Buell Racing pad works, and does not require any other modifications, how does that cost stack up against the cost of the EBC pads with a different MC? ...what if that different MC does not help the EBC pad performance, then what? Have you gotten ahead $$ wise in that scenario? Same with a front end swap? Maybe I'm just a pussy on the brakes (it is one of the weaker parts of my skill set, I know this). *edit* Dr. - Please don't take this as me getting on your case, I'm just trying to make sure you look at the other side of it and ensure that you are spending the money in the right spot. Trust me, I'm in the same boat, I have to watch where I spend my money on my race bike, that's why it's damn near stock. One place I want to make sure works is by brakes, I don't want to be going 150 and find out that I can't shed the needed speed, so if it costs $185 for pads, well, then I look at is as that's the cost of racing. (Message edited by 99buellx1 on April 13, 2011) |
