| Author | Message | ||
     Curve_carver |
Will this American Machine be constructed of hong kong parts? | ||
| Bartimus |
who cares? STFU !!! | ||
| Budgolf |
Why you stirrin the pot Dude? | ||
| Kicka666 |
I have an 1125CR that is full of HK parts, mainly Carbon Fibre, wheels & radiators... My levers are genuine Pazzo's though... Curve I love a good pot stir, life would be boring if ya could'nt... | ||
| Trojan |
Will this American Machine be constructed of hong kong parts? I hate burst your bubble, but there are NO American Machines any longer (the closest would probably be Victory but even they have Japanese and European components) just as there are no totally British,German, Italina or even Japanese machines. Manufacturers source parts all over the world depending on cost, supply, quality etc and national considerations are rarely if ever taken into account. The best we can hope for now is that some machines are assembled in our own countries  | ||
| Court |
>>>>Will this American Machine be constructed of hong kong parts? Your post is not the brightest and I think your intent is only to bring attention to yourself, but let me take a crack for the benefit of others. Over 1,000 vendors have been contacted. Starting a new motorcycle company is incredibly difficult. First you have to find someone who WILL make a part, then you have the long and arduous task of preparing detailed engineering specifications to see if they CAN make the part. Directly to your question . . . I should tell you one thing that troubles me greatly . . is that on far too many occasions AMERICAN companies have been approached and simply are not interested unless you are building 50,000 bikes per year. In one case a manufacturer wanted $25,000 just to consider the idea of possibly doing business. Many of the American companies appear quite lazy and complacent. In each and every case Buell Motorcycle Company, and Erik Buell Racing, starts out by considering ALL qualified vendors with little or not, beyond logistics, regard to COO. This by the way is not unusual. Ducati does it. And, for the record, just as there are no "American motorcycles" it is equally accurate to say there are no "Italian motorcycles". You realize the top of the line Ducati has suspension parts from Japan, I presume. The same could likely be said of Japanese motorcycles. Once a supplier is selected, using the Buell method, there is a complex series of events that get set in place to align the vendor and the development/manufacturing process on a manageable life cycle. As has been said, Buell evaluates cost but it falls about 6th in the order of essentials to become a vendor. Erik and team are up against some really tough challenges at the moment. The good news, for some familiar with Buell, is that one of the top purchasing folks from Buell Motorcycle Company has recently joined Erik Buell Racing. By the way . . . and the former illustrates that. . . regardless of where the parts come from . . Erik Buell Racing has CREATED more jobs in the last year than General Motors who still owe the USA billions. Court | ||
| Bwbhighspl |
I drive a Nissan. They didn't take any government bailouts. Does that mean that Nissan is now the more American decision, over GM, when it comes to a car purchase? | ||
| Curve_carver |
In one case a manufacturer wanted $25,000 just to consider the idea of possibly doing business. Many of the American companies appear quite lazy and complacent. I completely disagree with this not so logical statement. Really ? Laziness? It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness. It comes down to R&D time,tooling ,paying the workers, combined with other costs. They have to say we need 25,000 up front just to cover what they put into it. Many companies aren't lazy, there just afraid to invest in something that might flop. I don't blame em one bit. What we lack in the united states is good engineers. If we had more top notch engineers we wouldn't be in the position were in right now. This is what's made it so hard for us to produce quality goods. Making a product right the first time has seemed to be an issue in the united states. This is another reason why imports have succeeded our quality standards. In some cases when an import has an engineering fault they simple recall the whole slew and might it right. As for the stator issue with this motor the engineers at Harley put a relay and dropped 1 leg creating a 160-170% decrease in charging. They went from 3 phase ac current to single phase? Now your battery life has been decreased greatly. This was just a way to get out of a costly repair for the dealers. Now they can make money off selling batteries instead of replacing 500.00 worth of parts. Is this bad engineering? I hope this is making sense to some. Furthermore, who actually engineered the design of this stator? }In each and every case Buell Motorcycle Company, and Erik Buell Racing, starts out by considering ALL qualified vendors with little or not, beyond logistics, regard to COO. So it's only acceptable for a motorcycle manufacture to profit off the Chinese products and it's not okay for a small consumer as myself to order a pair of levers? Is this a logical way to view this or is this a double standard? If it make everyone feel better I bought a slinky that was made in the USA last night}} (Message edited by Curve_carver on February 11, 2011) | ||
| Hughlysses |
What we lack in the united states is good engineers. If we had more top notch engineers we wouldn't be in the position were in right now. This is what's made it so hard for us to produce quality goods. Making a product right the first time has seemed to be an issue in the united states. This is another reason why imports have succeeded our quality standards. In some cases when an import has an engineering fault they simple recall the whole slew and might it right. I think you'll have great difficulty in backing that statement up. ALL engineers are ALWAYS put under time and budget constraints. I'm sure that whoever came up with stator fix attempt for the 1125's didn't chose that because they thought it was the absolute best, it was what they could do within the time and money they were alloted. Buell Motorcycles itself was pretty damn good proof that the U.S. has some of the best engineers in the world. | ||
| Trojan |
They have to say we need 25,000 up front just to cover what they put into it. Many companies aren't lazy, there just afraid to invest in something that might flop. I don't blame em one bit. The same thing happens regularly over here and sometimes these 'up front' payments are just a sign of a 'show of commitment' rather than any laziness on the part of the engineers. This is especially true if they are approached by what is effectively a new company with no credit or trading history, and is actually good business practice in some cases. Once they build up a business relationship then these forward payments are usually relaxed. However it is also the case that getting stuff made in China/Korea/Far East is much cheaper than in 'the west' generally and they are falling over themselves to get our business. Whether quality ultimately suffers we shall see  My experience of Chinese made motorcycle components has so far not been a good one. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Depends on the circumstances...whether it is a design/build situation or a spec job. If everything needs to be engineered first, yes it is reasonable to assume a fee would be charged for the engineering (25K is not enough to cover all aspects if you include design, prototyping, testing and life cycle prediction)....BUT...if it is a spec job complete with CAD files and materials specification...it would be to the prospective vendor's benefit to provide costing for the item since very little in the way of cost would be required to provide such pricing. I work in the mechanical field...I will not provide for free any costing quotes that require engineering. I will provide a recommendation for a qualified engineer that the customer can pay to have the engineering done. If the job prospect comes with a complete set of sealed plans, and an engineering spec book....stand back...my bid is coming...assuming of course that the job is within our scope of work...if not, I will point the customer in the direction of someone qualified to do the job...good business, good ethics. In the case of Erik Buell Racing, I am confident that the components will be sourced based on the following: A: Reliability and fitness of purpose. B: Vendor reliability. C: Availability and lead time. D: Flexibility of the vendor/ability to respond in a timely manner to changes in specification. G: Fit and finish. H: somewhere in there is cost. The bottom line is the parts will be sourced with the best possible balance between cost and value. At least there will be nobody that can tell them "you can't have better parts than what we use on Harleys". (Message edited by fast1075 on February 11, 2011) | ||
| Lovedabueller |
WHO CARES???? ID BUY ONE IF IT WAS MADE IN A GARAGE IN EAST TROY!!!!! ohh... thats already been done..... damn!!! (Message edited by lovedabueller on February 11, 2011) | ||
| Steeleagle |
This stuff again? Somebody shoot me. ...and by the way, I resent the comment about no good U.S engineers. | ||
| Jdugger |
> I resent the comment about no good U.S engineers. I do too, although if the comment were made after reviewing some of the C++ I wrote earlier in my career, I think it's warranted. | ||
| Tippster |
Pretty sure the OP was just being funny/trolling. Seems quite a few took the bait. | ||
| Drawkward |
WOW Court, you totally fed the troll. I'm nearly 100% positive Curve made the post as a light hearted jest to all the stuff that's been going on recently. How long have you been on the internet, man...seriously...  | ||
| Blake |
"ME!" "LOOK AT ME!!!" "LOOK AT MEEEEEE!!!!" Tiresome. Boring. Lame. Trollish. | ||
| Blake |
I'm with Bartimus. | ||
| Stirz007 |
"What we lack in the united states is good engineers. If we had more top notch engineers we wouldn't be in the position were in right now. This is what's made it so hard for us to produce quality goods. Making a product right the first time has seemed to be an issue in the united states." As a practicing licensed Professional Engineer for over 20 years, I would say there is some truth to the 'shortage' comment. Engineering enrollment in U.S. Universities has declined steadily for some time - it is not generally perceived as an attractive profession, or one that will make you rich. For example, Tulane University had one of the oldest Engineering programs in the country - last year they dropped the entire Engineering school (Structural, Mechanical, Civil, Electrical, etc.). Just before the housing collapse, the Governor's office (Utah) publicly mentioned we were about 1000 engineers short in the area. (That's not the case now - I'm happy I still have a job. There are a lot of my colleagues that are out of work these days). Part of it is the commoditization of engineering in general, part of it is off-shoring design to China and India. They can work for a lot cheaper than I do. From my experience, most engineers, no matter what the ilk, want to do the best job they can. But they are also driven by scope, schedule and budget. If the Owner/Client/Management wants to do the engineering work on the cheap, that's usually what the end result looks like. Quality is often a function of experience and time available to work the problem (Time = Budget: "No bucks, no Buck Rogers") | ||
| Hughlysses |
Wow, Jeff- that's hard to believe about Tulane. What you're saying about engineering being "exported" falls right in with a book I read last year "Shop Class as Soulcraft": http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry -Value/dp/1594202230 The author makes the point that in today's world, ANY job that doesn't require hands-on work is easily exportable. The basic premise of his book is that the U.S. has belittled trade jobs for years and done their best to phase them out, while potentially, they will eventually be the only jobs left. Your final statement kind of falls in line with that sign I've seen in a few offices: "Fast, Cheap, Good: pick any two". | ||
| Reepicheep |
Having reviewed some C++ written offshore, I suspect you aren't giving yourself enough credit.  | ||
| Dannybuell |
Curve_carver - It seems that way sometimes. >>>This is what's made it so hard for us to produce quality goods. >>>Making a product right the first time has seemed to be an issue in the United States. >>>This is another reason why imports have succeeded our quality standards. When America sees a new import we are looking at a second or third generation product, refined in home and other markets. A lifelong friend owns some auto parts stores (40+ years) told me that Japanese starters and alternators last about 2x longer than the rest. >>>In some cases when an import has an engineering fault they simple recall the whole slew and might it right. It seems the typical American engineering response is dictated by bean counters risk analysis while the typical Japanese response is QA. In my opinion HD has bean counters/risk analysts and Buell engineer that he is fits the QA model. I am interested to see if the 1190RS electrics are engineered any better. | ||
| Blake |
We have plenty of top notch engineers. Without them you don't create things like the Apollo program, space shuttles, stealth bombers, chevy corvettes, iPhones, John Deere tractors, Caterpillar heavy equipment, Boeing aircraft, Peterbuilt trucks, Hughes spacecraft (satellites), General Dynamics SatCom antennas, Low Noise Amplifiers, multi-band up- and down-converters, Ford F250 Super-Duties, all sorts of amazing military hardware, software that pretty much runs the world, computers!... the list goes on and on and on. Yes the market is now global and competitive. We kick butt. I will say though that a significant portion of our engineers are not quality minded. It is one of the most frustrating aspects of my professional career. Too many engineers seem to think that they can do it all and are expert in all. Their end product is a joke compared to what you see coming out of Japan and Germany. Ego. The insidious mentality of "we've never done it that way before" or "we've never worried about that before" or "we don't have time to do it right"... WAY too much chicken-shit engineering; giterdone quick and cheap ends up costing a LOT more than if it had been done properly from the start. I can't tell you how many times I've seen it. I had one guy spend hundreds and hundreds of hours designing his own really poor version of a trailer instead of contracting a trailer company to do so. Then when it came down the wire, he had to farm it out anyway and had to pay a HUGE expediting fee. Egotistical idiot! When you find a really good, competent, practical engineer who can communicate and work well with others, you had better hold on to him/her. They are rare. | ||
| Court |
Blake. . you stole my list. The world's best engineering seems to be in America. Around the world folks, like Porsche and Mercedes-Benz engineers, toil away on machines designed in the U.S.A., using software written in the U.S.A. Find me a machine at Ducati, Triumph or Ural that is not running Windows or some derivative. I teach at Columbia University. I am in Pupin Hall (Room 425) and I'm less than 50' from the original Cyclotron where Enrico Fermi first split the Atom. If these halls, with more Nobel Peace Prize winners than any other building could talk . . what a story they would tell. Next door is the Fu School of Engineering. If American Engineers and Engineering is deficient it's a well enough kept secret that thousands of folks from over 100 countries fight for the opportunity to pay nearly $100,000 a year to be here to learn. If any of you are ever in town I'd be pleased to take you on a "behind the scenes" tour that will leave you with your jaw slack. The entire premise that American Engineering is deficient if ludicrous. We do, I'd submit, suffer from a poor competitive position when it comes to manufacturing. But when you see some of the retired workers, say a Principal from a NYC school, who gets $200,000 a year in pensions and whom no one questioned when she worked 1,800 hours of overtime her last year . . .well, ya gotta a problem. No so much in talent, but basic values and honesty. We also need to remember that the most frequent complaint with regard to Chinese imports is that they copy, the term "Reverse Engineer" is often used, American products. If they engineering is deficient. . why . . my curiosity wonders . . would someone seek to emulate it? I'd suggest that there are a LOT of great engineers in the world and American's are among the finest. By the way . . some of you have seen some of the trinkets in Erik's off . . . I presume you know that Buell, person and company, have done contract engineering for Porsche unrelated to motorcycles. Erik has also been retained by foreign motorcycle manufacturers to take on particularly difficult engineering challenges. Damn night school kids . . . . | ||
| Blake |
Danny, You nailed it wrt Erik. He's a major proponent of total quality and kaizen. He's an exceptionally rare engineer in that he came straight from school to H-D and managed to see outside the box of that engineering environment. Based on what I've seen, and despite some bright lights in the organization, the engineering culture at H-D just doesn't get it. Anyone remember when they used to have to custom fit the cams into each XL-based engine? There were what, at least four part numbers for each cam due to sloppy tolerancing in the cases/bushings? What a joke! After a couple decades, they finally fixed that, I think at Buell's urging. The XB engine has just a single part for each cam. Similar situation with the oil pump drive gear, a failure waiting to happen. | ||
| Court |
>>>>WOW Court, you totally fed the troll. I'm nearly 100% positive Curve made the post as a light hearted jest to all the stuff that's been going on recently. I agree. I don't seriously believe anyone with the cognitive poop to operate a keyboard believes any of that silliness. He did however provide me with an elegant forum to makes some points I think Buell folks would be interested. Furthermore I realized, as I am sure he did, that his tenants were so flawed as to be indefensible and would soon self extinguish. Turns out . . I was right. | ||
| Curve_carver |
Only 4 cam part numbers ? Lol Wow thats crazy! They were custom fitting cams to engines because the tolerances were that far off. I dont believe it. | ||
| Stirz007 |
And - as in any profession, there is quite a spread in talent and motivation. (You know what you call the guy who finished dead last from Medical School? - A DOCTOR!!) I'm biased, because I am a private sector licensed professional. That means: I screw up (just once) and I need to find some other way of making a living. Licensing means you have to demonstrate that you actually have some mastery of design and judgment skills before they let you hang your shingle out. Industry - Boeing, NASA, Chevrolet, John Deere - has what is called an "industry exemption" from professional licensing. You can be an "engineer", but the body politic or licensing board hasn't reviewed your credentials and skills as a requirement for you to practice the profession. That's not to say private industry engineers are less worthy or unqualified, just that the bar for getting in is somewhat lower. The main difference is that if an engineer screws up in industry, the engineer himself is not usually directly accountable (he may get fired, but can still practice engineering). The company takes the hit. It could be argued that industry engineers have less to lose if they don't focus on quality. Now go to the governmental side and (apologies to those the following does not apply to) the consensus in private practice is that those are the guys who couldn't cut it in the private sector. There is some excellent talent in Government, some of the smartest cats I know, so I don't want to totally stereotype the group. Blake - I would note that practicing outside your area of competency is considered unprofessional practice, at least in the world of P.E.'s. I can get my license yanked for trying to design a trailer when I know damn well that I am not qualified to do that, or that someone else is certainly more qualified than I. I sit on the State Ethical Conduct Board, and those are the cases we hear most often. Funny thing is, it's usually guys from Boeing and ATK, who have retired or lost their jobs, so now they try their hand at structural or hydraulic engineering (Public water systems and buildings) - they usually aren't qualified, and it is pretty easy to pick that up. Their response is usually something like "I have an engineering degree and I worked as an engineer at XYZ for 20 years, so I'm qualified" - NOT. | ||
| Blake |
Seems like all the notice is paid to German and Japanese engineering. This may stem from the fact that not too darn long ago, a badly engineered product in those nations earned the engineer an intimate date with a Samurai blade or a trip to the western front. The engineering in Britain, The Netherlands, France, Sweden, Norway, Italy, Israel, and America are all top notch. Anyone ever read the Pentagon Wars? It is the true story of the agonizingly protracted development of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. | ||
| Court |
>>>The Netherlands I'm not familiar with all of those but I DO know that whenever we have something big . . say over 5,000,000# to move that all the folks (and specialized equipment) seem to come from The Netherlands. I also, and this is purely anecdotal, love all the History and A&E channel shows on some of the amazing projects they've done. Interesting that all the world's leading construction firms are from Sweden and Australia. Most of what we (in construction) know about sophisticated QA/QC came to us from Australia. . . many leading edge safety initiatives from Sweden and The Netherlands. |
