| Author | Message | ||
     Nattyx1 |
I posted this in another thread. But then I thought it was gonna get lost there because it was kind of off-topic. So I'll repost it here. It was written in response to a question about whether anyone had tried a certain type of Chinese-made, "Pazzo-type" levers that are for sale on eBay for like $70. Let's see what kind of waves this pebble makes in the pond... ------------------ There's lots of talk in here about what a "shame" it is that Buell shut down and all those nice American workers lost their manufacturing jobs (and rightly so). Yet here's a perfect example (at least in part) of why this is happening. You could support American workers and American ingenuity by buying a fabulous set of ASV levers (made in SoCal)... or you can go to ebay and order those knockoffs from Hong Kong. Your choice, of course. Think short term, save $100, and I'm sure the Chinese guy who owns the Chinese factory will be grateful when he goes to purchase his next Bentley. But imagine a tight economic circle. What do you do/produce/make in your job? Maybe the happy ASV workers who are ALSO your happy customers will disappear because they got laid off. And then as your domestic market collapses, you get the pink slip too. And all that will be super fun to think about as you bolt on your Hong Kong specials. Maybe we should all start studying Mandarin... :-(  | ||
| Jules |
There are a fair few components already on the 1125 that were not manufactured or sourced from the USA. I seem to recall a huge number of other products that say "proudly made in Mexico" for sale throughout the States too... Buying domestic is "nice" but it's a global economy now. The chinese just bought a portion of the company I work for for 5.8Bn Euros, they are heavily investing in the UK/Europe (and the USA) at the moment. Most of the Japanese companies started off by buying western products and "improving" them or just selling them more cheaply. It's a shame (on one hand) but competition is important "globally" to give consumers more choice. | ||
| 1324 |
I agree with Jules. I'm a huge proponent of buying American (or European, Japanese, etc.) when feasible. But... Chinese parts run the gamut from crap to excellent - just like any other nationality. Don't forget, those wheels on your 1125's (and new XB's) were cast in China. There is a chance the factory levers came from somewhere in Asia (but I'm sure someone can chime in). For me, I can't justify $200 levers, $175 bar-end mirrors, etc. that are just going to break if I tip the bike over in my driveway. In that light, I'll happily buy knock offs. When my CRG look-alike vibrated off my XB last week while riding, I wasn't terribly upset. Would be different if it was my $100 actual CRG. The only hairy issue with buying foreign is when there is IP (intellectual property) at stake. In this case, I'm not aware of any patents, issued or pending, on any of Pazzo's levers - which is what many of the Chinese manufacturers are cloning. If there is no patent...well, sorry. It's free game, and many products have been 'stolen' from their original owners - within the US. There are only so many ways to skin the cat when it comes to motorcycle levers. It is unreasonable and unfair to let the market monopolize the original manufacturer just because they had the idea first. | ||
| Steeleagle |
Where's the incentive for entrepreneurship if anybody can re-produce your original creation or idea? Entrepreneurs invest time and capital to develop their products or services and should have some protection in order to re-coup their investments, like patent protection. It takes money to develop a product, both in form and functionality. Producing it is usually a separate consideration. If the idea folks are destined to lose money because the competition only has to worry about producing THEIR product, the idea folks will evaporate. IMHO supporting the knock-off market might seem economically wise, but only from a micro level. | ||
| 1324 |
^^ That only applies if the product in question is patented or has patents pending. In the case of levers, are there patents pending? I don't know of any - but will freely admit I could be wrong. | ||
| Avc8130 |
I don't want to support the knock-off market. So I haven't ordered those levers yet. However, I simply WILL NOT consider $200 levers no matter where they are made. IF the Chinese can make and ship them to me for ~$50, then the Americans SHOULD be able to get them to me for a bit less than $179. It is a global economy. ac | ||
| Jdugger |
Patents are realistically worthless anymore. They are too difficult to get, and entirely too expensive to enforce. For small business people, keeping trade secrets in the form of process is a more effective way to protect intellectual property. Ironically, the patent system was intended to prevent this very thing, and today it causes it. So, it's not the lever's design that matters. It's the innovation in how to produce it that can be kept secret... | ||
| Gsxrguy |
every month my retirement money is invested in "emerging markets" China, India and south america. I wonder how much money Americans have invested in Chinese companies | ||
| S21125r |
It's not necessarily where the products are built - it's where the money comes from and where the money goes, and ultimately where the profits go. Assembly is only a small part. Things like product design cost, product testing, fixture and equipment design and build cost, wareehouse/shipping, litigation, marketing, back office, IT, etc all add up and create jobs for local economies. One of the big three did a study a few years back (probably somewhat biased..) that showed that for every assembly line job there were 5-7 more resources used to support the design/manufactureing and distribution of said product. You could even make a case about fringe workers such as health care or real estate professions (maybe even the local liquor store) that provide services to those workers. Or the non profit organizations that sometimes receive donations from local corporations. Everything works well when money both comes and goes. Not so much when it only goes. Case in point... Toyota's largest profits come from North America, yet their largest costs are incurred in Japan. Effectively a giant vacuum cleaner sucking money in one direction only. BTW - my son goes to elementary school in a metro Detroit suburb and they have been teaching Chinese since first grade | ||
| Dannybuell |
Nattyx1 - Amen brother. Jules - One of the key factors to the American way of life is having a strong middle class. Big business is the money that runs government and they have allowed job's/opportunities to go overseas for the last 40 years. Any type of progress is based not on saying 'that's the way it is' but on saying 'that's the way it should be'. 1324 - 'huge proponent of buying American...' but, micro economics/marginal analysis set's in... Steeleagle - That's what I'm talking about. Gsxrguy - The greatest transfer of technology/manufacturing capacity in history from one country to the next country in the last 20 years has been from America to China at the expense of the American middle class. S21125r - Detroit public schools teaching Chinese, OMG what next? (Message edited by dannybuell on October 14, 2010) | ||
| Court |
I've done my part this week . . . paid double for a roll of 3M clear packaging tape at Staples because it was marked MADE IN USA. Also . . I ordered an 8U rack mount airline case, a power conditioner and optical compressor and went Carvin as a result of the MADE IN USA label. I'm looking at a Gibson guitar and confess I am really struggling with the difference between the $4,500 "Made in USA" Gibson and the ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL $400 Epiphone. We make choices. | ||
| 1324 |
We make choices. Amen to that. Anyone who claims micro economics doesn't play into their personal finances is either delusional, full of shit, or both. ANYONE who has EVER purchased items from Harbor Freight or the like is guilty. I rest my case as I already know where this argument will lead... | ||
| Stirz007 |
Waiting for someone else to come up with a good idea so you can steal it is as American as apple pie, I'm afraid. There is another current string that talks about IP and how it's a battle of who has the most lawyer money. For the record, I detest those who profit from others' innovation (but fail to share said profit with said innovator) - BUT - look here at home: McDog spends piles of money doing market research, traffic studies, etc., before they site a new "restaurant". BK just waits to see where McD builds, then they build across the street. TV - someone develops a good program. Almost immediately the other networks have their clones out, too. Just different enough to avoid copyright issues, but essentially the same premise - they didn't come up with the idea themselves, mind you. The Chinese are particularly bad about lack of respect for IP, and part of that is a culture thing - that doesn't make it OK, but that's the way it is. I try to support the innovators and my brethren here in the U.S. whenever possible, but for disposable parts, I agree sometimes it does not make sense. Depends upon criticality of application | ||
| Stirz007 |
Court - "US made" Fenders - made by Mexicans North of the Border. "Mexi-strats" - made by Mexicans south of the border. Not dissin' by latino brothers, but the point being US made and Mexican made are essentially the same workforce and skill set. That US made Les-Paul is NOT the same as the Epiphone, IMO. One is a heritage piece, the other will crap out under heavy use. Regardless of who the workforce is, the US made guitars (and I can only speak for myself) generally use better materials, better fit and finish, last nearly forever and sound better. Chinese in school? No surprise, there. Our educators panicked some years ago and started teaching Japanese, thinking we would all end up working for them - A second language skill is a good thing, but I'd say Spanish has a much better likelihood of being actually useful. | ||
| Gunut75 |
I have owned two Gibson Studio (Les Paul, and still have a Nighthawk) that were made in USA. They are both about 20 years old or so. Made in USA is stamped into the back of the headstock on the Nighthawk. I think it was $600 or so brand new when I bought it. I would be looking for one of the old "studio" line. .......and yes I would buy the levers. | ||
| Drhodes1970 |
I would like to say thank you to Natty for starting this thread. I won't be adding anything because he said it all. | ||
| Dman |
Oh man, what a topic, "don't get me started" I’ve been to China many times. I competed in an MBA program “battle” at Beijing University many many years ago, there were 10 teams, American MBA students vs Chinese, all go back into negotiation rooms and see who could get the better international technology deal given a set scenario. Americans won 9 out of 10, it was an easy spanking. At the presentations, to over a thousand people, at the University, we had multiple outbursts by people in the crowd yelling, “China will the new US in 10 years”, “China will rule the US”, “We will own America”, all getting escorted out … it was shocking at the time. I’ve been to dozens of businesses from the Wall to Kowloon and there should be no question how China has come from where it was 15 yrs ago (when their national campaign at the time was to try to propagate the use of toilet paper), to owning a significant chunk of us … that’s U.S. I’ve seen a guy asleep at a machine lathe the size of a house with tons of whirling steel, on it, to get caned across the shoulders to wake him up. I’ve been in computer manufacturing plants of machines people buy here in the US at a good price, where the windows were open, the temp 95+ degrees, brutal humidity, dust, dirt, um, clean room – not a chance, but none of that matters for computer assembly, right. I’ve been in Black & Decker where emps weren’t allowed to be married or have kids, they sleep under their table at breaks, & live in dorms so small the sinks fold up against the wall. How does that compare in America and the indirect costs? And the cost difference in levers is $100, they could sell those knock-offs at $20 & make a profit, but then no one would trust the quality enough to buy them. And don’t get me started on IP, crap, the Chinese have hacked our govt nets for yrs now, we can’t get them out let alone keep them out, but don’t make it a big deal cause, well, they own our govt nets. They hack our defense, tech, pharma, financial, you name it, thousands per day. Anyway, yes, I have ASVs on my dirt bikes & SuMo, I got the Buell & past X1W cause its American, plain & simple, own mostly American cars. But like posted above, sometimes it’s choices … all my dirtbikes are Japanese and my SuMo is KTM, I had no choices, I have an R1 (with pazzo levers, lol, go ficure). I'd say the bottomline for me is to always try to buy american, if you can't, then you can't, but I always exhaust my search there first. | ||
| Pdccd |
Global economy my ass. It's only global if it's a fair exchange. You (we) cannot compete when India and China aren't required to meet labor or environmental laws that the rest of the developed world are attempting to work with. Undervaluing their currency in order to maintain an unfair trade balance isn't "global" either. It's another catch phrase thats as empty as the average Americans savings account. Corporations were able to micro-manage every millisecond of time and materials, but were unable to bypass (but they kept/keep trying) the costs of a privatized health system (while all other industrial countries have socialized health care), labor laws, and environmental restrictions, so they moved to countries that had none of these concerns to increase their profit margins, continuing the unprecedented transfer of wealth to the top 1% of the world population. This 1% have no country, they go wherever the profit margin will take them. They'll be back, don't worry, we'll be the third world soon enough and be willing to poison our environment for pennies too. It's a cycle. (not motor cycle :-) They export what they can, and import illegals to do what they cant export (ie.food related.) (Message edited by pdccd on October 14, 2010) | ||
| Jules |
Global economy my ass. LOL - I wish our politicians talked like that. Can't help thinking that bikers would do a far better job of running their countries that the tits that are currently "elected" to do so - Irrespective of which current you are in. | ||
| Jdugger |
For what it's worth, the legacy costs of SS, Medicare, labor laws, etc, are why the US isn't competitive. I'm not saying they aren't good things, just letting you know the fact we have these things are why the unskilled labor markets aren't competitive. | ||
| Drawkward |
Anyone want to buy my levers? http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/593576.html?1284505081 | ||
| Nattyx1 |
So there seems to be some sort of correlation between above normal IQ and Buell ownership. I participate in other boards (and on some I just kind of skulk around to see what's the buzz), and NOWHERE is the level of discourse even close to what we have here. Thanks to all for being here and making this what it is. Sorry to be hijacking my own thread... | ||
| Bott |
+1 on the Gibson Studio Line - but the 'secret' is out,and prices are starting to rise rapidly. | ||
| Stirz007 |
Nat Now there's another interesting, but probably ultimately useless study - maybe Froggy will take it on: "A comparison of the Intelligence Quotient of Buell riders against the General Population". Sounds like a masters thesis ..... | ||
| Pdccd |
Oh, goodie. Someone brought up another often used, often mis-understood fancy word developed my the pro slavery marketing machines to further confuse us. "Legacy Costs", as the term was originally developed describes costs incurred by a business in prior years under different management or different political/financial times. They would include agreements to provide healthcare costs and pensions to employees. The federal social programs you site aren't included in this term, and while they deserve conversation, it'll sidetrack me to no end, so i'll attempt to address this legacy bull only. There are two primary reasons "Legacy" costs are crippling our manufacturing industries. Well, three, but the third one is my own opinion. -First, Health care costs have SKYROCKETED. Now we can chatter about that too, but trust me, it's simply another extension of profit margin projections by insurance corps, so i'll try to avoid digressing. Competing countries (Japan, China, India, South America for example) provide health care to everyone, so these costs aren't absorbed by the manufactures, aren't the manufactures responsibility. -Second. Now someone can quip about how the Japanese auto industry seems to be doing ok on US soil, but these companies have only been in the US for 20 years or so, so they haven't had to deal with the issue...yet. While industries like Detroit have been producing aging workers for over a hundred years easy. -Third, to me, it boils down to greed. If we could find a way to lasso health care, and encourage the sitting Corporate board members who make 300x's more on average than the average worker, to perhaps reconsider their priorities, then legacy costs could be reasonably absorbed. But like i said, thats more a leap of faith on my part than any hard plan. And that kinda segues to my overall feeling on this issue. We're beat guys, this isn't going to get fixed. But what pisses me off most, what really hurts me, isn't that we got beat by the politicians we elected or failed not to elect, not by the Corporate Horde, not by the crafty and very patient Chinese. We got beat by our neighbors, by our friends, by our family. We beat ourselves with our own greed. The mad sense of Hyper-individualism that's wrapped in our genes by generations of breeding has choked us. Every time I have to argue with a fellow brother or sister working poor middle class American fighting to pay their sub prime mortgage on an over valued house who's 700billion tax dollars bailed out wall street while their meager retirements are being savaged by the governments efforts to suppress interest rates, while making less money than a comparable position paid in the 70's, less savings in the bank than anytime in this countries history, first time in the countries history their children are projected to do financially worse than their parents, that buying that Chinese big screen television at Walmart on their Visa credit card is the real root of their suffering, not the republicans, not the democrats, not the Chinese people, not the illegal immigrants, not the insurance companies, not the evil marketing execs or the corporate slave mongers. It's the causality of community and personal responsibility that we're each responsible for. But hey, WTF do I know. I'm sitting here communicating to strangers instead of my neighbors , typing on my Chinese computer, sitting on my couch made in India, eating fruit picked by illegal immigrants, wearing underwear made in a place where people can't get clean water, and downloading porn filled with exploited eastern block women, instead of going outside and exploiting some local women. My .02   me ps. one last thing, please save your very valuable time criticizing my poor grammer, attempting to quible over pointless samantics, or dancing upon my gross generalizations and oversimplifications. I'm a friggin welder, it took me an hour to type this, and if you think it's long winded now, think of where it would've gone if I went into detail, posted references, and defined every finite detail of my observations. You get the point. (Message edited by pdccd on October 14, 2010) | ||
| Pdccd |
Alright, I lied. Jdugger, could you give me your definition of unskilled labor? I spent a year at a third job once stuffing envelopes for an insurance company. It had to be the hardest, shittiest job i've ever had, and working at a pig farm shoveling shit was job #2 at the time. Point is, skilled, unskilled, corporate doesn't matter. Work to be done is work that needs to be done. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Pazzo Racing Levers: We are a Canadian owned and operated company, we manufacture everything in house. What are you guys talking about? | ||
| Milo851 |
Pdccd i applaud you i to am a welder and if asked my opinion would point at your post intirely. 20 years ago i had a tatoo on my left cheek [the bottom one] MADE IN USA  | ||
| Dannybuell |
Pdccd - If the points you made were any sharper we would all be bleeding.  | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Pdccd: I'm a welder as well, I don't have a left-wing tattoo, pretty well all your points are valid. People need to see through the bafflegab. |
