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Lastonetherebuys
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 05:49 pm: | 
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ok given this information what are some of the more common true full synthetics in the weight of oil that we need for our 1125's? |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 05:50 pm: |
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Great info Redbuelljunkie. |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 06:15 pm: |
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All Amsoil motor oils are 100% fully synthetic. Mobil 1 products labeled "fully synthetic" are true synthetics also. I believe, but do not know for sure, that Red Line, Royal Purple, Silkolene, Motorex, Repsol, and a few others market a true 100% fully synthetic oil. |
Illbuell
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 07:13 pm: |
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Red line has the hearts of many race engine builders.. I have meet many who say its all there is in their eyes.. I spoke to a moto GP engine builder who said they use the red line products. He said after each race it was they only oil that had showed no measureable wear in the engine. I haven't used it in a while because its a little harder to find and pricy.. But So is a new engine |
Puredrive
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 07:43 pm: |
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I can't believe that there are still so many HD nutriders
On my bike as of right now I got mobil 1 20w-50 but I will be going to Amsoil. I am at 1400 miles |
Kidder
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 08:27 pm: |
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I will run Shell Rotella 5W-40 synthetic after a few thousand miles. I currently have Mobil Delvac 15W-40 in it.
Both are oils formulated for diesel engines. They are great for wet clutches. |
Mac_inger
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 08:39 pm: |
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Do you guys mind if i derail the thread for a second since we are talking oils ?
I am about to do the first oil change on my CR. Most people recommend Mineral oil for the first few hundred miles. Manual says Syn3.
As far as i know new bikes come with Syn3 in them. Wouldn't it be a problem to go from SemiSynth to Mineral ?
I was about to buy 3 quarts of Mobil 20w50 Mineral but figured i would ask first.
thanks |
Puredrive
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 08:59 pm: |
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I'm from the school of rev it like you stole it from the get go.
I personally dumped the factory oil @the 500 or so mile range. and tried to score some amsoil but my local parts store was out so I just replaced it with Mobil 1 true synthetic. |
Lastonetherebuys
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 09:30 pm: |
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the myth that you need to break an engine in with mineral oil is just that a myth. more and more manufacturors are coming from the factoy with synthetic or semi synthetic in the crank case.
bently, auston martin, cadilacs just to name a few |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 10:30 pm: |
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I don't know for sure if SYN3 is the factory fill or not, but the only reason why your manual says to use SYN3 is because H-D wants your money. If H-D changed their oil supplier tomorrow and started selling "H-D Liquid Chrome Motor Oil- Now you can chrome the inside of your Hog!", you can guaran-damn-tee that all the new manuals will say only "Liquid Chrome" is good enough for your bike.
As for mixing oils, modern synthetics and mineral oils are mixable- the downside being the mineral oil will dilute the synthetic and reduce its performance. There's no problem switching from one to the other during break-in, in fact using mineral oil will save you money because it won't be in there long. The important thing to remember, though, is that a mineral oil is worn out by 3,000 miles- so it won't make it to the 6,200 mile service. A reasonable break-in would include a mineral oil/filter change by 100 miles, the 620 mile service (again with mineral oil), and then switching to a full synthetic at 3,620 miles. From there you would be ahead of the game because your scheduled service intervals are well short of when a fully synthetic oil starts to break down. In fact, the service schedule is double the life expectancy of mineral oil, and just a touch over the expected service life of a semi-synthetic. If you are not a stickler to the service schedule, a quality fully synthetic oil is capable of doubling the factory recommended oil change interval- and still outperform mineral based oils. This is how you can actually save money using synthetics- one full-syn service is cheaper than two mineral oil services, and it's better for your engine.
Most enthusiasts, like me, usually change our synthetics out way before it's necessary, though- mainly because we just like using the best oil available, and we tend to follow the factory maintenance schedule for simplicity's sake. It's always better to change an oil while it's still good, than to change it after the oil is worn out- good oil is never a bad thing. It is a good idea to pick an oil you and your bike like, and stick with it- quality oil performs best when not diluted with a different oil's formula (base stock & additive package). |
Illbuell
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 10:47 pm: |
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A lot of engines still use mineral oil during break in.. mostly aircraft engines but its not a myth... |
Family_buells
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 10:52 pm: |
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Tell Lycoming or Continental that they're lying to you when they specifically say not to use synthetic oil when breaking in an aircraft engine.
The engine doesn't break in properly otherwise. |
Hdwrenchtx
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 11:20 pm: |
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screamin eagle harleys come with syn3 in motor, tranny, and primary from the factory |
Illbuell
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 11:23 pm: |
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A lot of engines don't need a break in.. Some do some don't.. depends on the material their made from. |
Mac_inger
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 11:28 pm: |
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Redbuell,..thank you for the post, very helpful. This oil change that i am doing is at 41 miles  .
I intend to do another at a couple of hundred miles and then the factory recommended 620. I will keep changing often until i hit about 3000 (well maybe a bit less) at which time i am planning to go to full synth Amsoil.
sorry for derailing the thread gentlemen,..please carry on 
(Message edited by Mac_Inger on January 29, 2010) |
Greenflash
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 01:05 am: |
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Good info Redbuell,
and I'd add that AMSOIL is a PAO-based synthetic Group 4, while Motul V300 is an Ester-based true synthetic Group 5. I have been using Motul V300 exclusively in my Ducatis for years, and I will use it in my two (red) 1125s. Something I read convinced me, about ester-based syns posessing a extra protective film on metal surfaces compared to PAO. Motul isn't cheap but really good stuff IMO. Motul has a discount price at their booth at the MotoGPs - I stock up there. But I'd probably use Amsoil if not Motul.
I really don't think "fully synthetic" Mobil 1 fits in the group 4 or 5 categories (It's a III I think), and I'm not aware of many others that do either. So that's my opinion and choice. But many are happy with Mobil 1. I use it in my car, I just accept that it isn't really a true syn.
My plan also has changes (HD dino) at 40, 300 and 900 miles, and I think I'm safe to go synthetic Motul at that point. Although there seems to be a difference of opinion as to when break-in is complete - I'm going to assume 900 miles is enough. |
Hairy_cannonball
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 04:53 am: |
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Comparing aircraft piston engines and their unique lubrication requirements to a close tolerance liquid cooled surface vehicle engine is not really relevant. For starters, (with the exception of diesel aircraft engines) they burn fuel that contains a significant level of tetra-ethyl lead. Synthetic oil is very bad at holding lead deposits in suspension which is why, at least to the best of my knowledge, there is no pure synthetic (only semi-synthetic) aircraft oil available for spark ignition aircraft piston engines, only diesels. Second, the piston to cylinder clearance on air cooled aircraft engines is very loose, usually around .010"..over ten times looser than most modern surface vehicle engines are set up. This contributes to significantly higher combustion byproducts winding up in the oil especially during break in. Third, the semi synthetic aviation oils contain an EP additive designed to minimize camshaft/lifter failures in Lycoming H series amongst others. This EP additive is not compatible with break in requirements for most engines. It has been so long since I have flown an airplane with an H series Lycoming ( or any non turbine engined aircraft for that matter) I can't remember if Lycoming says to leave the additive out on these engines for break in or not, but I do know the straight mineral and single grade AD oils do not have this additive and are therefore more suitable for the break in procedure. |
Kidder
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 10:32 am: |
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It is the wet clutch that is the issue on whether or not to use synthetic early on.
Bentleys, VWs, etc don't have wet clutches (lubrication via oil sump). |
Lastonetherebuys
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 10:41 am: |
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A lot of engines don't need a break in.. Some do some don't.. depends on the material their made from
the tollerances that most modern engines are built to do not require break in we have the technology to get the clearances down to thousandths of an inch so it doesn't need to "wear" the engine out a little bit to make better seals
5 min of run time is all you need to break in most modern engines |
Illbuell
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 10:50 am: |
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An engine with alum cylinders and pistons with no nikasil coating,chrome,etc still needs a break in.. Nick plated cylinders with chrome rings not so much... |
Lastonetherebuys
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 10:55 am: |
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is there realy engines out there that have no liners of any sort?
I would imagine that if they were a soft material such as aluminum the rings scraping up and down thousands times a min that the engine would have an extreamly short life |
Illbuell
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 11:08 am: |
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Sure, mostly smaller air cooled engines. A lot of big steel block alum piston V8 still have no coating and still need break in too. |
Lastonetherebuys
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 11:14 am: |
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fair enough about that but i would imagine that if you looked at the same V8 with an aluminum block that that you would find a liner in there.
hardened steel or what ever material is run for piston rings running against a steel wall not so bad. same piston ring running against an aluminum wall would there not be tons of wear on that? |
Illbuell
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 11:19 am: |
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yeah your right on V8's with alum block most have liners..Unless their old ones. |
Lastonetherebuys
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 11:22 am: |
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and old ones would fall out of the catigory of no break in required |
Lastonetherebuys
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 11:39 am: |
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back to the reason this thread was started I found this link that shed some light on different oils and how they rated
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf
take some time to accualy read it and not just look at the graphs like I did the first time I saw this |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 10:37 pm: |
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Consider the validity of a white-paper from a concerned manufacturer.
just sayin' |
Illbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 01:25 am: |
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Mobile one, trusted by the most expensive auto makers in the world for a reason |
Lastonetherebuys
| | Posted on Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 01:48 am: |
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Consider the validity of a white-paper from a concerned manufacturer.
thats part of what has me leaning towards mobil one in amsoils tests mobil one rated all but the same in most of their tests
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Jdugger
| | Posted on Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 08:34 am: |
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So, I'm sure there are a million oils better than HD3 Syn, but let me tell you a little story:
I put in a Suter slipper clutch last month. Part of that is pulling the OEM clutch basket out and RE-USING the OEM plates and steels in the new Suter basket assembly. Of course, one must measure the plates for wear and shim accordingly, etc.
So, after 40,000 miles on my track bike, 10k of which are HARD DUTY track only miles, we measured the entire clutch pack and it was a whopping .003 thinner than new.
Ok, so I'm easy on the clutch.
But No kidding about the measurements and wear. 40,000k miles!!!
I've been inside the motor 4 times on this bike. Everything is always shiny, has a fine finish, and a good film of oil on it.
To me, that really says something about that oil, too.
That something is simple: HD Syn 3 might not be the best -- I'm sure it's not.
But for our bikes... It's damn good enough, and has served me very reasonably. |
Swamp2
| | Posted on Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 09:00 am: |
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Consider the validity of a white-paper from a concerned manufacturer.
Yeah, I can understand being skeptical, but what other oil manufacturer have you seen actually try to provide scientific evidence, based on industry standard testing of the capabilities of their product. Everybody else is "our product is great, trust us".
That said, I agree it provides a pretty solid indication that Mobil 1 is good stuff. |
Peter_nikols
| | Posted on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 02:47 pm: |
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As quoted from Puredrive"
"I'm from the school of rev it like you stole it from the get go.
I personally dumped the factory oil @the 500 or so mile range. and tried to score some Amsoil..."
That echoes my sentiment exactly.
Peter |
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