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2008xb12scg
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 07:07 pm: | 
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Do you guys know what it costs annually to become a BW sponsor?
no?
Ft you bring up good points, it sounds like A fine line. |
Fmaxwell
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 07:12 pm: |
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"It doesn't really matter whether they are promoting directly or whether surrogates do it, they are still lessening the benefits of sponsorship."
When group buys are thwarted and links to clothing closeout sales are removed, that is lessening the benefits to BadWeb members.
Sponsors already have prominent banner ads at the top and bottom of every page. They have their own forums for communicating with BadWeb users. They have free access to promote their products in the regular forums.
Seriously, how much harm must be done to the users in the pursuit of more advertising money from sponsors? How many users have to miss out on $90 Buell jackets marked down to $20 and $75 hoodies at $15? How many start-ups and small volume manufacturers have to be chased away while they are considering making parts for Buells? I've known people who have made small-volume runs of parts for Buells, really cool custom parts, who can't even mention their products on BadWeb because their total profits for the year are less than BadWeb charges for sponsorship.
I am with Gotlime, Slypiranna, Hellgate, Rkc00, Speedy818, Kevin_stevens, Sl33py, Chadhargis, and others who have expressed frustration about inconsistently applied rules which are totally skewed to the perceived desires of sponsors -- regardless of how it affects the users.
@Ft_bstrd, No, I don't know what sponsorship costs and I've looked all over the board to find out. So what does it cost? |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 07:35 pm: |
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When group buys are thwarted and links to clothing closeout sales are removed, that is lessening the benefits to BadWeb members.
Group buys through sponsors are encouraged.
Sponsors already have prominent banner ads at the top and bottom of every page. They have their own forums for communicating with BadWeb users. They have free access to promote their products in the regular forums.
Seriously, how much harm must be done to the users in the pursuit of more advertising money from sponsors? How many users have to miss out on $90 Buell jackets marked down to $20 and $75 hoodies at $15? How many start-ups and small volume manufacturers have to be chased away while they are considering making parts for Buells? I've known people who have made small-volume runs of parts for Buells, really cool custom parts, who can't even mention their products on BadWeb because their total profits for the year are less than BadWeb charges for sponsorship.
I am with Gotlime, Slypiranna, Hellgate, Rkc00, Speedy818, Kevin_stevens, Sl33py, Chadhargis, and others who have expressed frustration about inconsistently applied rules which are totally skewed to the perceived desires of sponsors -- regardless of how it affects the users.
Clothing closeouts by dealers who never liked Buell and never really supported the brand whereby they dump their gear for nothing harms the dealers who not only bought but bought in large quantities Buell gear for the benefit of Buell customers. Sometimes supporting those who have supported BW means preventing the advertising of those who neither supported Buell or BW.
Sponsorship costs $700 per year.
Small quantity manufacturers have been able to market their products through sponsors for years.
If you want to produce something but don't want to pay the $700, market it through a dealer, DHM, American Sport Bike, Trojan, etc.
It ain't hard.
The policy is to protect those who provide the monetary support to BW. At the same time, the cost of sponsorship is very low (and can be had on a month to month basis if needed) and we are ALWAYS looking for new sponsors.
We are just not going to allow those who want to free ride to do so on the road paid for by those who have been here all along. |
Hellgate
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 07:37 pm: |
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This isn't a black and white option here. Sponsors can happily co-exist with paying and non-paying members. Over on the FZ6 Forum the majority of members don't pay, and that is okay. But for those who do decide to become a Premium or Elite member there are "Scooby Snacks" that come with it. As an Elite member our site provides 500 mb of gallery space, image in a signature, larger avitar, 1,000 PMs, and a bold, and colored user name to others know your infinate coolness, etc, etc. And that is for only $40.00 for a life time fee. Over the past two years there I guese I've donated about $200.00 or so all together.
At the same time we sell ad space and have sponsors. The sponsors post up in their area so we can monitor it. They cut us a beat on the price so it's a win-win.
With all the people here, I don't even got to the other parts of the board, this place would come out dollars ahead by moving to a different business model. |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 07:46 pm: |
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Fmaxwell, I was not expressing frustration regarding the policies. I was merely explaining the economics of the situation. |
Vtwinbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 08:01 pm: |
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It all comes down to who pays the bills. I will admit I have provided a product on here when it wasn't available anywhere. When the sponsors said they had some in stock six weeks earlier than expected I bowed out. The sponsors pay the bills, so they get the benefits.
There is a lot of knowledge provided by the users of this forum, which is why I am on this board. For unbiased opinions on products I have other resources. I have donated to other boards because they are more based around the members and that is how they create revenue to continue providing a gathering place. I have also purchased products from sponsors on this board.
One of the things that I do not agree with on this board is the bashing of people who provide unbiased opinions. People come to boards for advice and product opinions, every board must walk a line between who pays the bills and who posts and reads.
John |
Fmaxwell
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 08:34 pm: |
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@Ft_bstrd
"Group buys through sponsors are encouraged."
When the sponsor has the product and price that's the best, then I'm happy to participate in a group buy through them. Otherwise, I want to buy from where I get the best value.
"Clothing closeouts by dealers who never liked Buell and never really supported the brand whereby they dump their gear for nothing harms the dealers who not only bought but bought in large quantities Buell gear for the benefit of Buell customers."
When a dealer has a huge quantity of Buell clothing that they are closing out, then where do you think that they got it? From the clothes faeries? They bought the clothing from Buell/HD, in much larger quantities than some of the sponsoring dealers on here did. I've been to one of the BadWeb sponsoring dealers on here who had almost no Buell apparel in stock and what was there was being sold at list price.
But what you're saying is that you want to punish the BadWeb users, since all that your policy does is keep many of them from finding out about the deals. It's not like the dealer has had trouble finding buyers, with many of the items now being sold out.
"Sponsorship costs $700 per year."
Times 36 listed sponsors today brings BadWeb to a yearly gross in excess of $25,000.
"Small quantity manufacturers have been able to market their products through sponsors for years."
Some guy with a lathe and MIG welder he fires up on the weekend might not want to have a sponsor cutting into his meager profits. But you want to make sure that we pay a mark-up to a sponsor so that they can pay the $700/year to BadWeb.
"The policy is to protect those who provide the monetary support to BW.
The policy is to maximize the profits to the owner(s) of BadWeb.
We're adults here, so let's quit with the euphemisms. I "sponsored" a kid for the March of Dimes. That didn't mean I got to tattoo a banner ad on their forehead or forbid anyone who didn't sponsor them from speaking. The companies that pay $700/year to BadWeb are buying advertising and marketing rights to reach the BadWeb users. They are paying for forums where they can contact customers. They are paying for the ability to promote their wares in the forums. They aren't participating in some act of charity or looking out for the good of the Buell riding community. It's a business for them just as it is for the owners of BadWeb.
And let's stop with terms like "paying the bills." The bills were paid thirty some sponsors ago. All we're discussing here is the profits. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 08:42 pm: |
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quote:When the sponsor has the product and price that's the best, then I'm happy to participate in a group buy through them. Otherwise, I want to buy from where I get the best value.
American Sport Bike didn't even sell the FMF pipe till someone tried to do a group buy, then Al stepped up to the plate, took over and was able to get everyone ordering before a certain date a fantastic price.
About small manufactures, all I need to do is point to Special Ops or XB Lights. Both start off as small businesses being run out of a garage, then they became sponsors and business took off. |
Fmaxwell
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 08:56 pm: |
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@Froggy:
"American Sport Bike didn't even sell the FMF pipe till someone tried to do a group buy, then Al stepped up to the plate, took over and was able to get everyone ordering before a certain date a fantastic price."
Then there's no reason to limit group buys to sponsors if sponsors offer the best prices. But the second message in that thread was from Blake and read "Any kind of group purchase effort needs to be coordinated through one of our sponsors. Thanks." So there is really no telling how good a price the group could have gotten through a direct purchase from FMF or from a non-sponsor.
"About small manufactures, all I need to do is point to Special Ops or XB Lights. Both start off as small businesses being run out of a garage, then they became sponsors and business took off."
So any small manufacturer can get rich by simply producing something for Buells and sponsoring BadWeb? It's like a way to print money? Come on! |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 10:07 pm: |
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You sound like a guy ready to start his own web site . . . .
The system here, and I'm NOT a custodian and have no interest so I am speaking ONLY from personal experience . . is not perfect, but it's worked well enough to turn our old 6 person mailing list into 15,000 folks.
It's a lot like my family and friends . . . they're not perfect either but I don't make it my life's pursuit to fix them.
Really . . . and I truly say this with all due respect . . if you don't like it . . . register your complain which you have and then you are done.
If some changes get made that spin your propeller . . .great . . if not . . go start that website ya been itching to start and live large on your $25,000.
Blake's not making a plug nickel on this deal. . . I can tell that even as a construction worker. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 10:09 pm: |
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The group buy was going to put the FMF slipon at $458 + shipping, and Al matched that. Previously, you could only get it for $550 + shipping directly from FMF.
I never said anything about being a Badweb sponsor would be like printing money, but if you ask any sponsor, they will tell you the investment is worth it and pays off.
But, what do I know, I am just a computer tech that posts a lot. |
Skully
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 10:12 pm: |
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I can assure that I'm not getting rich by selling sliders for Buells on BadWeB. DarkHorseMoto would never survive as a stand alone business. The profit margin is simply too small.
If, as a paying sponsor, I have to compete with businesses who don't help support BadWeB, it probably wouldn't be long before I would decide to close up shop and yet another Buell aftermarket parts supplier would be history.
Blake's intent is not to limit discussions only to items sold by the sponsors or even to stop folks from showing off the latest part that they designed and fabricated themselves. It's to prevent non-sponsors from promoting their products on BadWeB.
Keith |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 10:37 pm: |
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"I have products related to my bike, that I can't discuss or share my opinion on because a sponsor has a competing product."
You are confused. Our terms of use do not prohibit anything of the kind. Glad I could clear that up for you.
Seems to me that some aren't happy unless they are whining about something.
Thanks to all those who have so thoughtfully and graciously invested their time into trying to explain/clarify the rules here to some who are intent on being disgruntled or who are just very confused.
Advertising/Marketing not same-same discussing motorcycle stuff. One seeks to promote stuff for sale; the other is just friends talking about their bikes.
Thousands of examples of folks discussing non-sponsor products are easily found on this site. To claim that to do so is prohibited here is moronic.
What is prohibited is advertising/marketing/promotion of for-profit non-sponsor products or services.
Anyone still unclear on that, contact me offline. |
Kevin_stevens
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 10:42 pm: |
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Blake's intent is not to limit discussions only to items sold by the sponsors or even to stop folks from showing off the latest part that they designed and fabricated themselves. It's to prevent non-sponsors from promoting their products on BadWeB.
Then his execution doesn't meet his intention.
I'm just about done here. The policy and attitude of this board is protectionist in the extreme, and seems destined, if not intended, to restrict the growth of the Buell market rather than to expand it.
I've only owned a Buell for a month, so you may say good riddance, but I've been tracking them since the Rotax engine was announced. I've owned and supported other smaller brands such as Moto Guzzi, and understand the need for a strong community.
Discouraging new products, discouraging discussion about competitive non-sponsor products and prices, discouraging new vendors - none of that is productive in the long run. It will result in higher and higher share of a smaller and smaller market for sponsors.
If we can post about, say, Competition Werkes footpegs, and that brings up information about compatibility with Japanese bikes, and that encourages a sponsor to carry them, and that lets them sell some pegs to members for OTHER bikes they own - that's growth. Not to pick on American Sportbikes, because Al's great and I'll happily buy from him when I can - but the pegs he has for sale don't interest me. But I'm not going to post a link to CW and start a thread about what alternate pegs people like, because I'm not interested in the grief, or in having the thread hijacked to discuss why I should lobby for a sponsor to make the exact peg I want instead.
I'll start the thread - somewhere else. Maybe I won't get the same quality of discussion as I would here, but I can at least do it without being slapped down for not being a good customer. I get enough of that from my cell company.
So I won't be posting the results of GPR's work with my CR - you can wait until they announce a product, because heaven forbid I step on a sponsor's toe.
And I won't be posting the name of the $12 spools that fit the 2009 bikes and protect the swingarm, because someone wants to reinvent that particular tiny wheel.
And I won't be joining the discussion about Vortex spools to put in my experience of how well they do or do not protect the swingarm.
In fact, I won't be posting much of anything. But at least I promise I won't be breaking any of the forum rules.
(shrug)
KeS
(Message edited by kevin_stevens on December 01, 2009) |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 10:43 pm: |
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When the sponsor has the product and price that's the best, then I'm happy to participate in a group buy through them. Otherwise, I want to buy from where I get the best value.
Sponsors should be given first shot at putting a group buy deal together. There is nothing that another retailer could do that a sponsor couldn't.
A quick PM can get a group buy going very easily.
When a dealer has a huge quantity of Buell clothing that they are closing out, then where do you think that they got it? From the clothes faeries? They bought the clothing from Buell/HD, in much larger quantities than some of the sponsoring dealers on here did. I've been to one of the BadWeb sponsoring dealers on here who had almost no Buell apparel in stock and what was there was being sold at list price.
But what you're saying is that you want to punish the BadWeb users, since all that your policy does is keep many of them from finding out about the deals. It's not like the dealer has had trouble finding buyers, with many of the items now being sold out.
If a retailer has loads of clothing they want to "dump", pony up your sponsorship dollars (on a month by month basis even) and sell your wares.
If you are a dealer with loads of bikes you want to "dump", pony up your sponsorship dollars and sell your wares.
It's that simple. We are not going to "punish" sponsors who have been sponsoring BW for YEARS in order to reward a dealer who is dumping product. How is that fair?
The goal of BW is not necessarily to find YOU the user the best deal. If you feel that is "punishment", I'm sorry.
The real question is whether products like DHM produces would even be available were these policies not in place. It's easy for Cycle Forums to get sponsors like Dennis Kirk and Cycle Gear, but companies like this aren't creating products. They are simply selling products. BW has the best,direct to the buyer, shade tree engineers around. We are the shortest distance between thought and marketable product. DHM, XB Lights, PDG Moto, Palmer Brackets, etc. They exist because of our policies. I wouldn't trade a single one for Dennis Kirk or Cycle Gear.
Times 36 listed sponsors today brings BadWeb to a yearly gross in excess of $25,000.
Between the internet bandwidth, servers, software upgrades, and full time web master, Blake is making nothing. Additionally, there is a staff of a dozen+ folks here who donate HOURS of their time weekly to maintain this site. NONE of us are paid.
Some guy with a lathe and MIG welder he fires up on the weekend might not want to have a sponsor cutting into his meager profits. But you want to make sure that we pay a mark-up to a sponsor so that they can pay the $700/year to BadWeb.
Most sponsors are willing to host products for little or no cost simply to drive traffic to their site. Al is very good to work with as are Skully and others. The sponsors want new products to be created.
PDG Moto did a month to month sponsorship. He would create a batch of gauge face plates and sell them for a month. $60/mo is a cheap entry price for any marketer if you didn't want to go through another sponsor.
The policy is to maximize the profits to the owner(s) of BadWeb.
We're adults here, so let's quit with the euphemisms. I "sponsored" a kid for the March of Dimes. That didn't mean I got to tattoo a banner ad on their forehead or forbid anyone who didn't sponsor them from speaking. The companies that pay $700/year to BadWeb are buying advertising and marketing rights to reach the BadWeb users. They are paying for forums where they can contact customers. They are paying for the ability to promote their wares in the forums. They aren't participating in some act of charity or looking out for the good of the Buell riding community. It's a business for them just as it is for the owners of BadWeb.
And let's stop with terms like "paying the bills." The bills were paid thirty some sponsors ago. All we're discussing here is the profits.
There are no "profits" being had here.
Additionally, there are STILL bills that must be paid every year to keep BW up and running. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 11:35 pm: |
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quote:Discouraging new products, discouraging discussion about competitive non-sponsor products and prices, discouraging new vendors - none of that is productive in the long run. It will result in higher and higher share of a smaller and smaller market for sponsors.
Except that doesn't happen, despite what you think. Take a glance outside the 1125R section, you will see what badweb really is, as this area is full of people who whine and complain constantly. Not really so in the other sections.  |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 11:38 pm: |
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"The policy and attitude of this board is protectionist in the extreme, and seems destined, if not intended, to restrict the growth of the Buell market rather than to expand it. "
Absolutely false. The opposite is true. We simply don't allow advertising by non-sponsors. If you cannot grasp the difference between advertising and just plain discussion, you will remain confused. Either you cannot read, or have a comprehension problem.
"Discouraging new products, discouraging discussion about competitive non-sponsor products and prices, discouraging new vendors - none of that is productive in the long run."
I agree. And none of that is the rule here. None. In fact we offer a special month to month sponsorship that after six consecutive months gains the sponsoring vendor the next six months free of charge. We do this to encourage new vendors and the creation of new products. If someone is unwilling to invest a paltry $119/mo in their commercial venture, they aren't worth considering as a vendor. That is the bar for gaining access to BadWeB in order try to start a new business or launch a new product.
Obviously sponsorship value must be maintained, so we protect it. You agreed to do so also when you agreed to the terms of use here.
"It will result in higher and higher share of a smaller and smaller market for sponsors."
Advertising is like that. When folks learn about a good product, they are more apt to purchase it versus one that they never heard of. D'UH!
"If we can post about, say, Competition Werkes footpegs, and that brings up information about compatibility with Japanese bikes, and that encourages a sponsor to carry them, and that lets them sell some pegs to members for OTHER bikes they own - that's growth."
That is also perfectly acceptable as long as the post is not advertising them. There currently exist a myriad of such threads on the forum.
So you are confused and you are basing your critique on horribly false perceptions.
Frankly, I think some folks just like to gripe.
I don't have time.
Having to address this kind of baloney angers me, it wastes custodian's time. It waste's may time. I'd much rather be spending time with family, or doing something productive, or plucking nose hair.
So here is my feeling and final say on the issue. If you don't like the way the place is managed or don't have the consideration to step back and see the truth of how the place really is and has been run for over 11 years now, then please do me a favor and just leave, skip the pathetic, inaccurate, indignant posts. |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 11:47 pm: |
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"Take a glance outside the 1125R section, you will see what badweb really is, as this area is full of people who whine and complain constantly. Not really so in the other sections."
+1 to what Froggy said.
(Message edited by dentguy on December 01, 2009) |
Ponti1
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 11:53 pm: |
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I really want no part in the argument, but out of curiosity, why may we discuss and link to Jardine, HR1, Termignoni, D&D, and other such companies? Is that not stepping on the business of Kevin @ Drummer (a paid sponsor)?
Why is that different?
Just asking because I do not see the difference, and this seems like a heck of a good place to ask the question...NOT because I am arguing one way or another, and definitely not trying to add fuel to the fire.
(Message edited by ponti1 on December 02, 2009) |
Eaton_corners
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 12:39 am: |
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Froggy seems to have hit on an interesting point. This appears to be a direct result of all the new 1125 owners who don't have the background of some of the more dedicated Buell riders. I have noticed on other forums that the young guns do not have the same attitude or respect for our riding activities as the older, more experienced riders. There does appear to be a generation gap when it comes to motorcycling, not to mention common courtesy. But then again, I may be too old for this type of fast-paced activity. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 12:45 am: |
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Ponti,
Because no one is advertising them, starting a thread trying to sell them, or looking for market feedback on behalf of potential vendors. It is just folks talking about Buell motorcycles, which is what this forum is all about.
If you cannot understand the difference between blatant advertising and just good old fashioned friendly discussion among a bunch of Buell enthusiasts looking to talk about Buell motorcycles, then you'll just have to let us custodians handle the issue.
Sorry if that comes across as gruff. I'm just tired of having to explain it. This same issue flares up a couple times a year and there are always a few indignant ignoramusus who are compelled to raise a holy stink. I don't understand such people. If I am participating on a web site forum and don't like the way the place is run, I may offer constructive suggestion, but most likely I'll simply avoid the place. I'd never post antagonistically.
Too many people imagine their opinion should rule the day. They need to get their own web forum, see it grow to over 20K members, and run it for over a decade.
Then there are the purely selfish jackasses who care only about themselves. They are only interested in saving a few dollars, no matter what. They'll gladly make use of the free forum, but when it comes time to supporting the sponsors, they'll ditch them in a second if they think they can save a few paltry dollars.
Fine. It's a free world. I simply don't care to pay any heed to such selfish jerks.
Thanks for your thoughtful approach to the issue. I sure do appreciate it. Hope I clarified it for you. If not, please contact me further offline.
Thanks,
Blake
(Message edited by blake on December 02, 2009) |
Ratsmc
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 01:44 am: |
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Well Blake, I only care about myself.
...but really, I think that has caused me to come around on this issue quite a bit.
I think there are two important factors this issue. The first is that there seems to be a misunderstanding of the rules and how they are enforced. As the admin of another forum, I can tell you though I am sure you know, people will never actually understand the rules even the simple ones.
The other issue is that the rules here are a bit different than anywhere else and I think for very good reason. The Buell community is different than say a Jeep community - there will never be as many Buell's on the road nor will there ever be generations of Buell riders. That creates a situation where what many riders expect or want for their bike may not exist or be easily available.
What you have here is a community that actually creates it own aftermarket. I have worked with a couple of sponsors here and my involvement with them is directly related to their involvement here. The fact that they respond to interest and suggestions from the community and ask for feedback is a remarkable thing. They aren't just advertising they are responding to our needs.
The fact is, this place has improved the selection, price and availability of parts for Buell owners. On top of that, the sponsors here are all small business owners. If I can support a Dark Horse Moto or American Sport Bike, I feel good about doing that. The fact that they look to us to help them do a better job is a pretty rare thing.
} |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 01:57 am: |
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Ratsmc,
Wow, that was a remarkably astute and thoughtful commentary, and I really appreciate it. You've encapsulated my views very well.
Thank you.
Merry Christmas to all. |
Jammin_joules
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 02:15 am: |
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Clothing closeouts by dealers who never liked Buell and never really supported the brand whereby they dump their gear for nothing harms the dealers who not only bought but bought in large quantities Buell gear for the benefit of Buell customers. Sometimes supporting those who have supported BW means preventing the advertising of those who neither supported Buell or BW.
The clothing fiasco was not product ordered from Buell under normal whole sale conditions in large quantities pre-black THursday and many of the dealers who had the benefit of being east coast time zone bought product that supportive dedicated Buell & BWB sponsoring dealers were not allowed to attain for loyal customers and Buell enthusiasts.
Being a BWB sponsor is more than the annual fees we pay. Time to monitor and contribute to the content as well as other offerings made thru BWB has a cost also.
I too find the 1125 board of a different flavor than the other various boards on BWB. Perhaps it is, in part, due to the percentage of first time Buell/BWB owners since incentive pricing is higher than XB and other platforms? Just saying...
Regardless, given the activities since black-Thursday this board and all of BWB as well as Buell dealerships will be a dynamic and rapidly changing entity in my humble opinion. Where as we have seen a large increase of Buells in our service department as of late, I can't see that being the case long term and at all dealerships.
Decreasing part availability, no new bikes for sale, fewer new buyers to the brand, fewer new parts - all these and more will have new, as yet, undetermined effects on us; owners, dealers, suppliers, service personnel.
Hopefully we will not forget that which makes us alike, and over look more of that which is different between us.
 |
Gotlime
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 09:36 am: |
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I'd ride with anyone on this board. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 10:07 am: |
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First off, I'm not on anyone's "side"... I posted my feelings, and for the most part, I don't think the rules here inhibit me from participating in the manner I'd like.
I'm planning a long trip on my S3T for next year, and I want to carry more stuff than the saddlebags allow, so I'm going to buy a tail bag. I wouldn't think twice about making a post about which tail bag I bought, or looking for opinions from others who may have used said tail bag or had recommendations for other tail bags. I wouldn't expect the thread to get banned for such.
If I tried to get a group buy going through a non-sponsoring vendor, then yeah - it's be squashed and with good reason.
BTW - I also post sometimes on a Mazda forum, and a post was deleted there because someone had set up a group buy on HID kits through a non-sponsor. It happens more than just here.
As far as any "income" from vendors, anything Blake gets to keep is really of no consequence. It's simple economics. If sponsorship wasn't worth $700 a year, he'd have to charge less. If sponsorship costs $7,000 a year and people WANT to pay it, why shouldn't Blake reap the rewards of a service he's created?
I agree with Froggy and other's that the 1125 board is like a whole nother place than the rest of BadWeB. It's always been a little more volatile then the rest of the place, but since Oct 15 it's really gotten out of hand, to the extent that I really spend a lot less time in here and never really expect to see anything of value. I'm not sure why it's so different, but it is. |
Andymnelson
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 12:06 pm: |
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I'm personally quite shocked at the attitude that has been given to Blake and the custodians here. Pretty embarrassing actually.
I think that it's one thing to state an opinion on how a board is run, quite another to take the discussion the direction this one has.
I can't imagine getting this worked up over a forum...and sticking around. If you don't like it, state your opinion politely and move on. If it changes, great. If it doesn't then learn to play by the rules of the house or go to another house. Seems simple to me.
BadWeb has always represented the best of the best in motorcycling to me- a very professional environment that is informative and helpful. A far cry from the typical message boards that are full of threads like this one.
My hope is that this board returns to that professional atmosphere...more like the XB board and Old School board are for me.
Thanks to those that invest time, energy and money into this place- this board has made my riding experience a better one. |
Fmaxwell
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 01:06 pm: |
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@Andymnelson
"I'm personally quite shocked at the attitude that has been given to Blake and the custodians here. Pretty embarrassing actually. "
I'm shocked by Blake's responses, in which he refers to those who disagree with him as "indignant ignoramusus[misspelled -- ironic]" and "selfish jackasses."
This thread started off in a civil manner and was carried on without personal attacks (prior to the post mentioned above). People politely and thoughtfully discussed funding models that they felt worked better from other forums. They discussed their views on how to better balance the needs of the users against those of the sponsors. They suggested alternate funding methods such as allowing users to pay for the privilege of being able to freely post links to products, businesses, and sales with which they had no financial interest.
I urge you to reread this thread, starting at the top, and to tell us what you felt was unprofessional or against the rules of this board:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/518709.html?1259707865 |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 03:05 pm: |
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I'm shocked by Blake's responses, in which he refers to those who disagree with him as "indignant ignoramusus[misspelled -- ironic]" and "selfish jackasses."
This thread started off in a civil manner and was carried on without personal attacks (prior to the post mentioned above). People politely and thoughtfully discussed funding models that they felt worked better from other forums. They discussed their views on how to better balance the needs of the users against those of the sponsors. They suggested alternate funding methods such as allowing users to pay for the privilege of being able to freely post links to products, businesses, and sales with which they had no financial interest.
I urge you to reread this thread, starting at the top, and to tell us what you felt was unprofessional or against the rules of this board:
I believe the responses you received are in direct response to YOUR assertions that Blake is "rolling in the dough" and that the sponsor costs equate to "hush" money.
If I spent the time and attention that Blake does in creating and maintaining BW, I'd be pissed too.
You can make this your personal crusade. It will end badly. At less than 500 posts, you are FNG. You haven't seen how this goes. I have.
You've said your piece. We understand your position. You've been heard. It isn't going to change anything. The policies are the policies as created by the owner and as enforced by those tasked with custodial responsibilities. It's served us well to this point.
The owner is willing to ride BW into a dark smoking crater rather than to run it in a manner inconsistent with his desires and his design. It's his "business". |
Ccryder
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 05:32 pm: |
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Hmm, still boils down to when you were a small child playing in your friends backyard. When you started playing there, you learned his rules. Sometimes if you didn't like them they might. just maybe change them per your suggestion. If not, then you live with the "rules" or went home.
All right there are a few more rules and they are a little more complicated but, these are the rules in this backyard. Whenever I didn't understand I would drop Blake a PM and in a short time he would answer my question. If I didn't like the answer I had two options. 1) Live with it. 2) Go play in another backyard.
Guess what????? I do both. I can adapt, and I do. After 10 years here on BWB, I'm still here and that's because BWB operates in a manner that I like and respect. Some have alluded that they may leave, it's a big world out there have fun. You know where to find me, I'll be here with a few thousand others.
Time4Dinner
Neil S. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 11:45 pm: |
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Bunch of capitalists crying like communist pigs in Animal Farm.
Man makes a buck, or more, or not, so what? He earning it honestly, he's not taking it from you. Heck, you're not even involved in the transaction. It's really, literally, none of your business.
I thought the start your own forum response was appropriate.
I check out two Buell forums daily, and a third once in a while. I'll check yours out if you start it but I won't pay a subscription. But, hey, it'll be your house and your rules. |
Macchiato
| | Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 08:52 am: |
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Large companies pay for this type of service for the purpose of the "R" in R&D.
Competition is good for all concerned.
Big picture, long term we all know this to be the key to longevity. To ignore it creates a "boutique market", and that may be fine for some. |
Jammin_joules
| | Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 11:43 am: |
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Bunch of capitalists crying like communist pigs in Animal Farm.
Reminds me of a story
Bubba the capitalist cow poke
A cowboy named Bubba was overseeing his herd in a remote mountainous pasture in California when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced toward him out of a cloud of dust.
The driver, a young man in a Brioni suit, Gucci shoes, RayBan sunglasses and YSL tie, leaned out the window and asked the cowboy, "If I tell you exactly how many cows and calves you have in your herd, Will you give me a calf?"
Bubba looks at the man, obviously a yuppie, then looks at his peacefully grazing herd and calmly answers, "Sure, Why not?"
The yuppie parks his car, whips out his Dell notebook computer, connects it to his Cingular RAZR V3 cell phone, and surfs to a NASA page on the Internet, where he calls up a GPS satellite to get an exact fix on his location which he then feeds to another NASA satellite that scans the area in an ultra-high-resolution photo.
The young man then opens the digital photo in Adobe Photoshop and exports it to an image processing facility in Hamburg ,Germany .
Within seconds, he receives an email on his Palm Pilot that the image has been processed and the data stored. He then accesses an MS-SQL database through an ODBC connected Excel spreadsheet with email on his Blackberry and, after a few minutes, receives a response.
Finally, he prints out a full-color, 150-page report on his hi-tech, miniaturized HP LaserJet printer, turns to the cowboy and says, "You have exactly 1,586 cows and calves."
"That's right. Well, I guess you can take one of my calves," says Bud.
He watches the young man select one of the animals and looks on with amusement as the young man stuffs it into the trunk of his car.
Then Bubba says to the young man, "Hey, if I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my calf?"
The young man thinks about it for a second and then says, "Okay, why not?"
"You're a Congressman for the U.S.Government", says Bubba.
"Wow! That's correct," says the yuppie, "but how did you guess that?"
"No guessing required." answered the cowboy. "You showed up here even though nobody called you; you want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked. You used millions of dollars worth of equipment trying to show me how much smarter than me you are; and you don't know a thing about how working people make a living - or about cows, for that matter. This is a herd of sheep. ...
Now give me back my dog.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ................o~'o
As one techie pointed out though:
Since when do GSM based cellular networks get reception outside of a city? Especially a data network...
But then he also has a data link on his Palm, which is an extra phone bill each month. He goes on to use an Excel sheet with a database, which is the wrong way of going about things, as you should use Microsoft Access as its built exactly for that purpose. So now he is receiving an email on a Blackberry (another cellular based plan, more redundancy and wasted money), he could of totally skipped the whole Excel thing as it wouldn't be needed if you just used the satellite uplink image and advanced photo recognizing software to count the heard.
Oh, there is no such thing as a portable color HP Laserjet, their smallest model is bigger than the Uly topcase. |
Chopped_burban
| | Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 01:18 pm: |
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Jammin...LMFAO... that's much longer than the version with the blond who dyes her hair brunette, but along the same lines.
As for the rest of this.... I got about half way through the second page before noticing how off track from the original post it got. I think the first post was valid and I'll keep using this site and the other Buell forum sites to get a better picture because yes, I do feel information on this site is somewhat censored. HOWEVER, their is a ton of good info here and it's a good place to hang out.
And for anyone keeping score, yes I support site sponsors that I have found here by buying through them. The advertisement and word from other users about their customer service has led me to them. But not all of my stuff comes from site sponsors. At the same time, my local dealership isn't a sponsor and I bought 2 Buells and a bunch of other stuff through them.
Oh, and yes, if it came down to being able to, not required but available, to buy a yearly membership that would get me my own @BadWeb mailbox and a few other frills, I probably would. I do it at my truck club, so why not for my bikes? |
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