| Author |
Message |
    
Moosestang
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 08:09 pm: | 
|
The fact that the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 doesn't seem to conspicuously bear the JASO MA specification on the front of the package was giving me some serious pause in considering it for my 1125. Now that I know that the tech data sheets claim that it is JASO MA-compliant, I think it might be the the best option for an 1125, insofar as: 1) its easy to find (Wal-Mart), 2) it meets Buell's requirement for a JASO MA-compliant synthetic oil, and 3) its not all that expensive.
Comments?
The mobil 1 v-twin has JASO MA right on the back of the bottle. Unfortunately my local Walmart has stopped carrying it. |
Whynot
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 08:27 pm: |
|
I picked up some Mobil 1 4T 10-40 today for cold weather operation (10-40 below 40F per the manual), at a local autozone @ $9.49/qt. |
Fmaxwell
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 09:53 pm: |
|
Walmart near me has the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50. So does the local Advance Auto Parts.
One of the reasons that I like the motorcycle-specific oils is that they give me an excuse to hang around at motorcycle shops on days when it's too rainy/snowy/cold to make riding fun. That's what I did today, picking up an HJC FS-10 helmet for $130 today. |
Yugi
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 11:13 pm: |
|
> I've been lurking for a little while but I have to say I don't understand why the Mobil 1 "red cap" 15W50 (for cars) is bad.
> I'm new to V-twins so maybe I'm missing something but that's all I've ever used in my race bike (Yamaha R6) and I've never had any problems. In fact the tranny shifts so much smoother than the factory oil and the semi-syn I broke it in with I was shocked at the difference it made.
> As long as the API stamp on the back of the container states that it's NOT energy conserving, it does not have the additives in it that will cause the clutch to slip. (The bottom half of the outer circle of the stamp needs to be blank)
> If there is something I'm missing please let me know because I'm always up for learning something new but I've always used the Mobil 1 red cap in my jap bike which also runs a wet clutch and I've never had a problem. In a few more oil changes I plan on running the same stuff in the 1125.
That's exactly what I said. Many people were running Mobil1 15w50 in their bikes without any problems, even with shared oil for clutch/gearbox. I will probably try it later, after Mobil1 V-twin. But now I will run Mobil1 V-twin to avoid warranty issues.
(Message edited by yugi on November 24, 2009) |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 08:53 am: |
|
It isn't bad, it will work great. Mobil 1 VTwin does have a better additive package for an air cooled motor though... so you do get some goodness for the extra $3 per quart.
That being said, I run whatever full synthetic I can find for a good price in the 20w50 weight... which is usually castrol but sometimes Valvoline.
I'd run the WalMart supertech full synthetic if they made it in 20w50.
Then change it every 3500 to 4500 miles as convenient and depending on how hard it's used and how long the bike has been sitting. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 08:57 am: |
|
It has been a while since I tried the Castrol full synthetic in a wet clutch...the last time I did...it was DEADLY...killed a new MTC slider clutch plate kit in a single pass....don't know about the more modern formulations... |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 11:31 am: |
|
Thanks, good first hand info. I use sport trans in the primary, but had thought about just dumping the castrol in there... |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 11:36 am: |
|
Reepi, the Mobil 1 V-Twin is a very good choice...just remember that if you are putting the lube in an XB motor....be very, very careful that you use a lube with NO sulphur...it will KILL the stator. |
Greenflash
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 05:46 pm: |
|
I'm approaching the end on break-in (used HD dino oil, changed at 45 and 300 miles) on my CR, and I'll soon have an R to break-in too. My preference today would be to use Motul V300. I have used it in my Ducatis for years, Miami Ducati swears by it and that's what started me on it. It's an ester "real" full synthetic, Type V. I believe Amsoil to be a Type IV PAO-based also "real" full synthetic. I consider only Type IV and V to be "real" synthetics.
I thought Mobil 1 4T, Motorex, H-D Syn3 etc. to all be in the Type III category, right? I realize they are allowed by law to call these type III refined petroleum oils synthetic, I don't agree with the law. Reference the Sport Rider "Oils well that ends well" article, there are links in Badweb somewhere.
The point about Type 5 esters clinging to metal seems to favor it over Type 4 PAO (Amsoil). Lots of Amsoil proponents out there though. Motul has had a great 2-for-1 offer at the MotoGPs (Indy and Laguna). That's where I stocked up, cost $37 a gallon with shipping. Retail is about $55 a gallon. Pricey, but no one has convinced me it's not the best, yet. Regarding JASO MA certification, neither the HD Syn3 nor my Motul list any certifications on the bottles. Apparently, HD Syn3 is just rebadged Citgo semi syn; I will not patronize Hugo Chavez' Citgo company, period. Nice patriotism HD! Plus, I don't think Syn3 even slightly compares to Amsoil or Motul in quality. I still have a few weeks to decide on the preferred oil for my 1125s, then I'll stick with it for the life of the bikes. Any thoughts? |
Duchunter
| | Posted on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 01:37 am: |
|
Here's an update relating to that info that I posted from the Mobil web site the other day:
I found the product data sheets for the Mobil branded oils that I mentioned previously, including the Super 4T in 20W-50. Although I had trouble finding them for a second time on the Mobil site, I found that I had saved the PDF files on my hard drive. Unfortunately, they're too big to post here as attachments, so I'll just summarize the key points here.
Here's the take home:
Mobil Super 4T is available in 10W-40, 15W-40, 15W-50 and 20W-50. All of these are JASO MA compliant. It looks like its a conventional oil, not a synthetic. It might be hard to locate.
Mobil 1 Super 4T is fully synthetic, but as others have previously mentioned, its only available in 10W-40 and not 20W-50. The Mobil 1 V-twin is available in 20W-50. Both are JASO MA compliant. (thanks to the people who clarified that the compliance statement is on the back of the V-twin bottle)
WRT using the red-cap Mobil 1 15W-50 for cars -- I have been using the original Mobil 1 15W-50 in everything (cars, V-twin bikes, oilhead boxers, etc., including my BMW R1100) since 1994. Maybe using it in wet clutch bikes was really stupid and I've just been lucky.
My recollection is that the 15W-50 Mobil 1 was not reformulated when the rest of the Mobil 1 oils were reformulated to comply with the 1990s EPA "energy conserving" mandate. EPA had already required all of the auto makers to start using lightweight oils in all of their cars in the name of energy conservation. Because 15W-50 wasn't considered an oil for current automotive engines, it was exempted from the reformulation requirements. So while the additive levels fell from about 1200 ppm to below 1000 ppm across the Mobil 1 automotive line, the levels never changed in the 15W-50. Back then I saw what was coming, and I bought a pallet of Mobil 1 15W-50.
My understanding is that although the rest of the Mobil 1 line was reformulated to comply with the EPA's requirements for lower additives / CatCon protection, 15W-50 was never modified. It maintained the high additive levels and tested very well.
Back in the late 90s the Internet BMW Riders made a big deal about what's what for oil, because BMW was threatening to terminate bike warranties for those of us who weren't using BMW oils. Here's a summary of the pertinent info:
http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html
10 years ago the data showed that Mobil 1 15W-50 had maintained the same additive levels (above 1000 ppm of Zn, P and Ca) and was right up there with Mobil 1 V-twin. The new Mobil 1 EC (energy conserving) did have the additive levels drop below 1000 ppm in compliance with the EPA mandate.
After reading DiCarlo's report, I was glad that I bought Mobil 1 15W-50 and was using it in my bikes. The one important topic that this study and BMW never bothered to mention is JASO MA compliance, and the presence/absence of energy conserving additives that could be related to wet clutch slippage. Both BMW and DiCarlo focused entirely on additive levels, and completely ignored the issue of energy conserving additives, wet clutch slippage, and JASO MA compliance.
Its not at all clear to me whether the absence of "energy conserving" verbiage in the API "donut" is conclusive enough to consider a specific oil to be JASO MA compliant, even though it is not specifically rated as such. If you've got a wet clutch bike that's a big assumption to make.
So what to do about the Rotax motor? Personally, I believe that the Japanese MC industry was right when they created the JASO MA spec for wet clutches. The manufacturers observed real world failures when automotive oils were deployed in bikes, and they designed the JASO MA oil spec to eliminate the problem. They claim that it makes a difference, and if anyone should really know, it should be the bike manufacturers. I also think that Buell probably knew something when they spec'd a JASO MA type oil for the 1125. I'm willing to take their word for it and pay a little extra for Mobil 1 V-twin oil for my 1125. Although I've still got the better part of a pallet of Mobil 1 car oil sitting in my basement, its not like spending a few extra bucks on V-twin oil for the bikes is gonna kill me.
The Repsol and Motul products look pretty good too, though it seems like V-twin is still going to be the winner in terms of price and availability. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 02:56 am: |
|
amsoil is the best. Mobil 1 V-twin is a good second choice across the board. Syn3 sucks. None of the mentioned will harm your wet clutch. |
Hildstrom
| | Posted on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 12:42 pm: |
|
Sport Rider Oil Article 2003
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index. html
Sport Rider Oil Testing Results 2003
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/index. html
AMSOIL Study of Motorcycle Oils 2009
http://www.amsoil.com/products/streetbikes/WhitePa per.aspx
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf
I questioned the validity of the AMSOIL study since they make oil and ranked themselves first in the results summary tables. I read the study and compared many of the individual test results to the independent test results obtained by Sport Rider and things matched up fairly well considering the 6 year difference. I also compared many of their automotive test numbers to some other independent testing I found online and noticed good correlation. AMSOIL motorcycle oils do not win every individual test in their study, but their oils place very well in all of the tests, so I think the high overall score in the results summary is warranted. I also feel that the independent testing supports the AMSOIL study.
HD Syn3 definitely does not suck according to the AMSOIL study. Check out the PDF page 24 summary and the individual test results throughout.
I was a member of the "any cheap oil will do since I change it so often" crowd in the past. For several years I ran the cheapest WalMart and AutoZone 10W-40 non-synthetic oils I could find in my Land Rovers, but I noticed an increasing layer of varnish building up on the dip sticks over time. I ended up taking a photo of the dip stick during the last two conventional oil changes to make sure it was actually getting worse and I was not crazy. I switched to AMSOIL AMO 10W-40 in one Rover and Royal Purple 10W-40 in the other this past October. I will post the final oil analysis results after my next oil change. The results will end the conventional vs synthetic debate for me in addition to comparing AMSOIL and Royal Purple synthetics.
http://hildstrom.com/projects/oil/
I switched my 1125R to AMSOIL MCV 20W-50 at the 620 mile service. I ran cheap 10W-40 oil in my FZR600 until I noticed the sludge/varnish in the Rovers. The FZR has Castrol Syntec 10W-40 in it at the moment, but I am thinking about using AMSOIL MCF or AMO next time. I pulled several clutch-wheelies in second gear at about 40-50mph on the FZR, so the Castrol Syntec 10W-40 I used had no negative effect on the FZR's clutch grip.
Here is a good discussion on the API oil label and using "automotive" oils in motorcycles with wet clutches.
http://svtwin.blogspot.com/2009/06/oil-change.html
Hopefully the information buried in these links will help someone make a good decision. We've gotta keep our Buells on the road as long as possible. 
(Message edited by hildstrom on November 30, 2009)
(Message edited by hildstrom on November 30, 2009) |
Hellgate
| | Posted on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 12:56 pm: |
|
Hildstrom - Good shit, thanks! |
|
