| Author | Message | ||
     Buford |
oh, guess I should mention that my bike is an 07 XB12S... Sly-take it you have the 1125? thanks guys (Message edited by Buford on July 15, 2008) | ||
| Xb9 |
Buford, just assumed you were on an 1125. Ignore my last post for any '07 or earlier models. I've used the stock bung location with the wideband no problem. (XB & 1125r) (Message edited by xb9 on July 15, 2008) | ||
| Id073897 |
Unlike any Buell I have ever seen (this may be true for the '08 XB's as well), they are not targeting stoich for closed loop operation. I'm not sure if this would prove true. The target is >15:1, which causes the drivability problems. Could you explain me why? How would you confirm that? Sorry if I seem a bit insistive, but I'm pretty sure, that if you wouldn't know some actual AFR, you would not notice any difference between 16 and 14 in partial load. http://ecmspy.com/download/gunter/graph2.png This is not even realtime, but with only 6 samples per second. Reality looks even worse. There is no target, it's all just "above" and "below" and reversal points. And, honestly, do you really believe, even the best WB-O2 could make just one number from that? First question: how many samples go into that number? What happens, if it's one sample more or one less? Take a look at the fluctuation and answer this question for yourself. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Xb9 |
Gunter, I understand your skepticism. It is unusual. Different in every sense. But your questions are good and welcome. Could you explain me why? To meet '08 EPA emission standards without a cat. The tests are performed (from what I have heard) at cruise loads in the 3-4K range. The target is >15:1, which causes the drivability problems. How would you confirm that? 1. No other explanation of why it runs lean to the point of bucking and surging in closed loop. The ECM and 02 sensors are in complete control. I don't even need a dyno or datalog to confirm it is a lean condition, it is that severe. 2. Slypiranna has confirmed with data logging in closed loop with his wideband controller. I never did this because I did not weld on extra bungs for the wideband o2 sensor. 3. The base maps in closed loop region are lean to match (confirmed with both widebands), and also exhibit leanness to the point of bucking and surging when the engine is run open loop only (no 02 sensors). 4. Correct (properly richen) the CL area of the base maps with via wideband datalogging and it runs smooth as glass with the CL disabled. Night and day / black and white difference. Believe me, you don't need a gauge or graph to tell the difference in riding experience. 5. Plug the O2's back in and in CL it is as lean as before the map improvements. Bucking and surging lean. Again, you don't need a gauge to tell the difference. 6. Unplug the 02's and back to smooth as glass. Maybe Sly can send you some of the log data he recorded in closed loop. I've done logs of narrowband controlled output on my XB and understand your point. I've always looked at the mean (average) when analyzing narrowband output. (Message edited by xb9 on July 15, 2008) | ||
| Slypiranna |
Gunter, I understand why you are questioning this and it makes sense to think this way but please help further...BY THE WAY, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME HERE! I've enrichened this system to 13.8-14.2:1 (that was as close as I could get and it was wideband confirmed on both cylinders) in previous tests and realized the difference. All the bucking below 4k rpm completely went away. In fact, I was able to cruise very nicely as low as 2800rpm any gear. Prior to this, no way. Another example, though not as smooth with stock maps, the o2 disconnect (and forcing Open Loop) test as posted by Xb9 did note an improvement in ridability. This is slightly richer than closed loop correction allows being that its forced to the local map cells. Non the less, better operation. I'm in no way attempting to argue but for what ever reason, some 1125 examples simply do not tolerate closed loop operation, most notably in the +/- 3500 rpm range...AND others run seemingly perfect by their owner's account? Just doesn't make sense...and why most of us are still really determined to find out all the root causes why. We have already found a few issues that affect the performance and have since narrowed the questions down to FUEL & IGNITION...at least that is where my thoughts are. All input, whether agreed with or not is MOST welcome! The LEARNING PART is still ongoing...Post on!  And yes, I'm on an 1125. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Almost forgot...the reason I am questioning TIMING is this question; Let us just say that the lean fueling is within smooth operation...BUT the timing cells related to this rpm/load region OR another input in the ecu jumping the actual advance curve around within this rpm/load range? That is the only other likely culpret that comes to mind...thoughts? P.S. Sorry for the torture BUT could .4-.5 Volts of RAPID flucuation VIA MAP sensor (steady state/no load cruise right at the bucking point/ MAP output Volts 2.4-2.9) have anything to do with any of this? (Message edited by slypiranna on July 15, 2008) | ||
| Bob_thompson |
You guys are way over my head and thought processing right now but from what I see I have to agree with everything that has been said. My own tuning goes back to carbs, magneto's and distributors but the timing and lean conditions are still giving the same results, i.e. stumbling, surging, more heat from compression pressure, etc. My hope at this time, as I might have mentioned before, is for BMC to at least step up with "race" tuning as a "parts" alternative for those people who do not have to worry about EPA regs. Many just might be willing to do this, even if it would cancel warranty conditions, as many will be wrenching on their own bikes due to some dealerships service problems. At the same time open this option up to non racers with without licenses. Just put the old "for racing use only" on the parts (ECM's, mufflers, fairings, etc. Again, I really would like to hear from someone from BMC but I'm afraid its just not their policy for many reasons. | ||
| Chevycummins |
Finally got my bike to learn last night. After 20 miles of 3rd gear at 45mph. Front 94.5 rear still 100. A little better only at cruise speeds. Still bucks and surges at lower speeds and in lower gears.  | ||
| Id073897 |
5. Plug the O2's back in and in CL it is as lean as before the map improvements. Bucking and surging lean. Again, you don't need a gauge to tell the difference. 6. Unplug the 02's and back to smooth as glass. This habit is comparable to the XB and shows the uselessness of changing the map if running in closed loop. If CL is active, then AFV is of no impact, as AFV is applied in OL only. I'm not convinced that the mixture is the main cause for surging. I'm running OL with my XB and get heavy surging in some areas, but this could be induced by the single manifold or whatever reasons. What I see is a change in O2, but pw remains constant, as all other parameters. This tells me (but I might be wrong) that the problem is not fuel induced - or at least not only. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Alex |
Just from what I have seen: Whenever the system enters CL there needs to be a starting value for EGOCorr. And that value is AFV. Furthermore if one deactivates EGO Correction all the cell values will be multiplied by AFV. That´s why I say all values are multiplied by AFV. To be more precise one would probably have to say CL values are initially multiplied by AFV and then corrected by EGOCorr if all necessary CL conditions are given. There is sense in changing the cell values in CL to make necessary EGOCorr deviation smaller. Just my 2 cents. | ||
| Xb9 |
(Message edited by xb9 on July 29, 2008) | ||
| Id073897 |
Whenever the system enters CL there needs to be a starting value for EGOCorr. And that value is AFV. Yes, that's what I watched also. Most obviously during idle. AFV is a kind of "frozen EGO correction". I'm not sure if changing map bins will have any influence on the deviation. From what I understood the ECM starts a correction cycle with some veBin value. Then this value is adjusted via EGO correction in the direction of O2 target voltage until it hits the lean or rich limit (possibly provided by O2 sensor data). At this point the signs are changing and a new cycle is started, but in opposite direction. In this case, the deviation will be restricted by the rich/lean limits. Map bins will set up some "entry point" into a new corecction cycle if vital parameters (TPS, RPM) change, in this point of view map bins have an impact on mixture. Nevertheless, there are still lots of open questions, how adjustment works. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Black_snowman |
AND others run seemingly perfect by their owner's account? It's my humble opinion that these reports are from people who are not as particular as we might be. I'd say those people reporting that everything is fine are probably running how mine is. Which is much better than it was, but far from perfect. It's been slowly improving over time and runs pretty well at anything 3k and over and sometimes I've run it lower with only a little roughness. Before about 1500 miles I was having to make sure I kept the RPM over 3500 or it would run very rough and made me fear for my drivetrain. I don't know if that helps at all, maybe we should look for the posts from the people who are happy with how it's running and get some more details. Maybe knowing about the ones that run better will help us narrow the parameters or values that are the issue. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Loretta runs smooth enough now that I can ride her AT IDLE, hand off the throttle in 1st and 2nd. 1st is 9 mph and 2nd is 13 mph. No rattling or bucking. School zones are a breeze. When she's smooth, she's smooth... Z | ||
| Ccryder |
Burton: Without knowing some of the other riders, you are reaching some conclusions that may not hold any water. a picture of Zac and myself is right there on that page in the dictionary of Riders that are particular. Your picture must be on the page of "...", well never mind. I'm not discounting the way your 1125r is running, just don't discount how well our 1125r's are running either, just because you don't think we are not "as particular" as you. Come ride mine, although Zac's may be closer. You will feel what a great running 1125r should feel like. Later Neil S. | ||
| Xb9 |
Zac, it's good to hear your bike is running great. You're one of the lucky ones! Do you know anyone else with an 1125r near your altitude? Curious if their's runs well or poorly. Black_Snowman, I agree. Human Perception is a LARGE variable. So much to do with what you are accustom to and what you have experienced in the past. Riding habits and environment come into play also. That's why actual hard data is so much better | ||
| Xb9 |
Personal case in point. A couple years ago I threw a Drummer on my Stock XB9 and thought it ran great! A while later, I got a wideband and Technoresearch software and decided to custom tune the maps to this engine configuration. Then I found out what great really is. It's a variable - the human perception and sensitivity thing that's hard to quantify. CC, I don't think we're trying to put anyone down here, that's definitely not the intent. and I'm sure there are some 1125r good runners out there. Thank the Buell Gods you have a good running one. (Message edited by xb9 on July 16, 2008) | ||
| Ccryder |
Just trying to supply another point of reference. This is a technical discussion and I'm just hoping to keep it on "task" and not dilluted or high jacked. Keep up the great work! I'm following this thread with GREAT interest! Even though mine is running great, I'll always stand in line for better. I really do appreciate all the thought and time that is being put into this thread, even though a lot of the time it's above my head. Later Neil S. | ||
| Dalton_gang |
"AND others run seemingly perfect by their owner's account?" I`m one of the less picky owners I guess. If the bike is running at 95%(just a guess) or better I`m happy. But when it wont pull a 2nd gear power wheelie and it poops at every other stop sign I start freaking out. Usually when it starts acting up is when I start getting more aggressive (mean) and usually it starts behaving after a short while. This is the reason that I`m wanting to agree with Zac`s solution. Still at 100 and 105 and lofted it in 3rd a couple of times last night. Ran smooth down low also. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Dave, from my previous posts I thought you understood that I am at 4200 ft elevation. My rides regularly have me going to 8000+ ft. and back with a cruise at even elevation at 4200 ft. for 10 miles to get to the twisties which generally go up. To be as accurate as I can be; my bike generally runs very well without surging or hesitation midrange or low rpm (down to 2500 or slightly less but not at idle as Zac's) Only once did I experience a 4500 rpm momentary stumble when grabbing a handful in 3rd gear and it was in real hot weather and where I had been cruising for a while at low constant elevation and went to rapidly accelerate around a slowpoke. Hasn't happened since. Always runs very strong in all rpm ranges. AFV's are at 94,5 F&R. My bike (#292)is still stock with the reflash and no alterations yet. Bike seemed to run slightly better after the reflash, that is better to a lower rpm but not quite idle. Some surging still below about 2200 rpm. Not enough to bother me but as Black_snowman eluded to that is subjective to the individual. Now I do not have the electronic tuning abilities of you guys but have many, many times seen the conditions some are encountering and most of the time it has been a lean or very lean condition. We should all know that usually maximum H.P. comes "near" the leanest condition because of greatest compression pressure without detonation but thats always near the ragged edge of destruction also. On the other hand we are seeing it, I believe, due strictly to meet EPA regs. With what you guys have seen in your fine data gathering is that leaness in those areas of EPA testing. On our carbed bikes we simply cured that with jets and slide needle adjusting and "race" ECM's and ignored EPA as we have a choice as individuals. This is what I'm hoping for in electronic tuning. I have very little doubt YOU GUYS WILL FIGURE IT OUT. We are not hamstrung as the factory is. I am also sure as some have said; we will then know just how well these bikes CAN run. Please stay on track and keep up all of your great work, all of you who are contributing here. Thanks much, Bob (Message edited by bob_thompson on July 16, 2008) | ||
| Black_snowman |
Zac4mac, that's awesome! I haven't read every post on the board so I hadn't seen you state that elsewhere. Ccrider. I wasn't looking to make accusations, just see if we could get some participation from the good ones. Looks like it worked.  Is there anything we can learn from Zac4mac's or Ccrider's machines? Can we troubleshoot like they do with diseases, find one that's unaffected and look for what's different? (Message edited by Black_Snowman on July 16, 2008) | ||
| Chevycummins |
I also believe that its ones opinion we are going by when we say it runs great or not. I ride in vehicles all the time that there is "nothing wrong with" according to the owner but I will spot 10 things within 10 seconds of driving. I would really like to ride another bike to compare it to mine. I'm sure there are some that run great and I would like to see what I'm missing out on. I've been known to be slightly picky, I like to call it observant. Another thing I noticed on my bike is a slight load will smooth it out quite a bit. Tire inflation and body weight may also help "load" the bike enough to make it seem smoother. I'm working on an adjustable O2 sensor for my bike and just installed it today. No codes yet and seems to be a little smoother with less surge. So far the ecm does not know its being tricked into running a little richer. | ||
| Ccryder |
Burton: It did work, not a problem. I think Zac and I responded to another thread that our 25r's were running very good. Don't sweat it, we are making some headway. It always easier to figure out what is wrong if you have an example of what's right. One of the other 1125r riders in my area is not real happy with the way his 25r is running. I keep offering up for him to ride mine so we can see what and how much is good or bad. Now back to the one's that are more knowledgable than me. | ||
| Xb9 |
"I'm working on an adjustable O2 sensor "..... That's interesting - More info please! | ||
| Dalton_gang |
Has anyone played around with this yet? http://cgi.ebay.com/Buell-race-ECM-all-fi-models-t urns-stock-ecm-to-race_W0QQitemZ260263471517QQihZ0 16QQcategoryZ35571QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVie wItem | ||
| P_squared |
It's a cable for ECMSPy. ECMSpy only supports the XBs and Tubers currently. | ||
| Xb9 |
(Message edited by xb9 on July 29, 2008) | ||
| Zac4mac |
Loretta seems to constantly be in learn mode now. A couple of days ago she was at 90/94.5, today she's at 94.5/99.5. Still very smooth, idling in 1st and 2nd is pretty quiet and smooth. She'll idle in 3rd too, but the tranny clatters then. About 16-17 mph. I'm liking this... Z | ||
| Slypiranna |
I can safely say that AFV's are ALWAYS on the hunt WHEN the parameters have been met in CL. I found a way, about a month ago, to monitor this feature and every other on the dash in actual running conditions. I witnessed the AFV's adjusting in real time and all under a minor test period, approx 15 minutes. BUT...for the AFV feature to LOCK in on a new value (that you can see via diag mode or have them apply to base map cells in OL), I believe that a certain count or cycle of similar feedback must be met within the ecu to post a new number of correction. Think of this as the ecu cycles trouble codes of past. It seems to take approx 50 clean run cycles...then they clear. Seems logical for that to change once to be known credible. I'm now very sure that AFV's have absolutely NOTHING to do with CLOSED LOOP operation or altering of fueling in the regions that some have complaints of. Dave, Gunter and others here got me thinking. Review the wideband feedback over the history of mods/AFV adjustments/Altitude differences of 900'...every single time a change was made, CLOSED LOOP always took over. AGAIN, NO change or enrichment of A/F in Closed Loop. I'm also very sure now that the FUEL base maps, above 4800 RPM and IN OPEN LOOP @ SEA LEVEL are so close to spot on that any change here would be a bad move to entertain. This is only assuming we are referring to a virtually stock exhaust,intake,cam, ect 11...as we all know major mods will require remapping everywhere. Timing is another story, not enuff info yet to fully make a call on but soon, I'm sure. Baro pressure, MAP pressure, Ambient temps, Coolant temps DO alter A/F under "perfect" conditions...of which I'd love to understand the math on! I have to repeat this, just so that we are all clean of this subject, AFV's DO NOT apply or override closed loop fueling. Therefor, a change in AFV will not correct or alter why your 11 all the sudden rides better or worse, just because you witnessed a change in AFV values on the dash. They are NOT inter-related in operation. AFV simply LEARNS in that region and applies this correction in OPEN LOOP. What other factors play into this is still unknown but that is one reason we are all still testing and learning here. Smokin' thread and thanks for every single one of you all posting. If "you" are just watching this thread and not posting, please jump right in. Further information, whether right or wrong, might just stir the solution to the surface! Next! mm (Message edited by slypiranna on July 16, 2008) (Message edited by slypiranna on July 17, 2008) | ||
| Chevycummins |
Xb9, what I've done is reduced the voltage the O2 sensors are feeding back to the ecm. This makes the ecm see lean and hopefully richen it up slightly. Right now its being distorted by about 1 tenth of a volt lower than it should be. I only had time to ride to work 8 miles but did seem slightly smoother overall. I will keep riding and changing the feed back volts from the O2 sensors to see if I can find my magic number. If this won't work out then the next on my list is the map sensor. I've got a few ideas for that as well that should "fool" it without setting codes. |
