| Author | Message | ||
     Carmell |
 Hi guys. With all the talk going on right now about high engine temps I decided to do some experimenting today. On my ride home Thursday it was a nice cool 109 here in So Cal, and the 25 got up to 218 deg on the freeway and 222 going through town closer to home. Yesterday I called Redline and talked to an applications engineer about how to use the Water Wetter. I was told the best solution for my bike would be distilled water with 4 oz. mixed to a gallon. I flushed out as much coolant as I could by draining the system through the drain plug, filling the radiator with the new mix and repeated this 4 times till the fluid draining out resembled what I was putting in. Took it out for a test ride today with the temp at 103 and went the same course as Thursday. The temps fluxuated from 212 to 219 on the freeway ( the factory coolant stayed even not fluxuating by more than 1-2 deg ). When riding through town it again reached 222 only this time it was puking water out of the vent tube at an alarming rate. My next step will be to replace the water with Engine Ice and I will post my results from that by tomorrow. One pleasant change that I can pass on is I drained out the Syn 3 motor oil and replaced it with Motul 300V 4T 15W-50. The motor is way more quiet in terms of mechanical noises and the transmission felt a lot smoother while shifting and letting the clutch out. Well sorry it was such a long winded report, I will give you all my results from the Engine Ice as soon as I have them. Rob | ||
| Superman217 |
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uCeXwAA95oY This was semi-interesting bro. KG | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Pulled from the 'Net: What I can say with conviction is that the person who wrote Redline's Technical Information brochure on "Water Wetter" knew what he or she was talking about. I have a Ph.D. in Heat Transfer and have taken a graduate course in Boiling and Condensation. Based on my training I can say that Redline's explanation of their product makes good scientific sense. First we must dispel a common misconception: "Water Wetter" is not designed to lower your car's bulk coolant temperature. So if you put it in your E30 M3 hoping to see lower operational coolant temp's, then you will probably be disappointed. "Water Wetter" is designed to reduce hot spots in your cylinder head. It does this by reducing the build-up of water vapor in any superheated areas. The bad thing about having hot spots in your cylinder head (read combustion chamber) is that they can promote pre-ignition - definitely a bad thing. This harks back to Smokey Yunick's theory of "soft combustion chambers". Any sharp edges in your combustion chamber (around valve seats for example) may tend to get very hot (even red hot) during operation. These areas of the combustion chamber can then form local hot spots in the cooling passages. Thus, even though your bulk coolant temperature is well below its boiling point (i.e. your gauge reads just fine), there may be localized boiling in some regions of the coolant tract. This localized boiling can cause a layer of water vapor to form over the hot spot. This vapor forms an insulative blanket and prevents heat from leaving this area, thus making the hot spot even worse. But reducing the surface tension of the water makes it easier for vapor bubbles to leave the surface of the cylinder head and allows the bubbles to convect heat away from the area. Something that changes the surface tension of a liquid is called a "surfactant". It does not take very much surfactant to significantly change the surface tension of water. Hence, you do not need to add very much "Water Wetter" in order for it to do its job. An additional benefit of using "Water Wetter" (in conjunction with 100% water) in you cooling system is that water has an extremely high heat capacity. Thus a gallon of 100% water can carry more heat away from you engine than an equivalent gallon of 50/50 water and coolant. Water also has a high thermal conductivity which increases the convection of heat away from the coolant passage walls and into the free stream of the liquid flowing through the passages. "Water Wetter" does not increase the boiling point of water. Standard automotive coolant does increase the boiling point of the mixture above that of 100% water. But remember that if your cooling system is operating properly, it should never get hot enough to boil (I mean BOIL, not just localized boiling). Raising the boiling point of the coolant in passenger cars is primarily a safety measure, so that if the cooling system is over stressed (climbing a hill on a hot day with AC on), it will not boil over. On performance cars the primary duty of the cooling system is to keep the engine in its optimum temperature range. This is best accomplished with 100% water, because its high heat capacity makes it very efficient at transferring heat. Performance cars often run relatively high cooling system pressures. This also raises the boiling point of the coolant. But the high system pressure is not used to avoid boiling so much as to allow the engine to operate at a higher temperature for reasons of efficiency. A higher cooling system bulk temperature also allows the use of a smaller radiator (there is a greater driving force to transfer heat from the coolant to the free stream air). Take a look at the E30 M3's "tiny" radiator and you will see what I mean. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Note on the article, our bikes do get close or surpass the boiling point of 212 degrees...huge point there. I am starting to believe a combination of coolant+water+water wetter might be the best. PLEASE let us know how the engine ice performs. Thanks for the heads up. | ||
| Kttemplar |
I just added 3.5oz of water wetter to my coolant a few days ago and have seen about 6-10 degrees drop in coolant temps. I am curious to see how the engine ice performs on this real world test in comparison to the water+water wetter, because my next step was to run engine ice mixed with water wetter. I have also contemplated a 20/80 coolant/water+water wetter in order to gain the most heat transfer capability while retaining some anti-freeze/boiling point advantages. Mike (Message edited by kttemplar on June 21, 2008) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
What does a 20/80 mix do for boiling point? | ||
| Slaughter |
I just got another recommendation on our Willow Springs racing board to look at Maxima cool-Aide | ||
| Xb9 |
I'm using water wetter, and also see a 6-10 degree reduction vs the factory glycol mix. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
XB9--are you using straight water with the water wetter or did you add the WW to the coolant+water? | ||
| Carmell |
 OK. Its 109 here now and I just took the same ride with the Engine Ice. For the majority of the ride it was going between 204-206. The maximum was 212. There was more than likely a small portion of the cooling capacity that still had the water/water wetter, but I would saw the vast majority of it was the Engine Ice. This product has my vote with a 10 deg. difference at the max end and a 10-12 deg. difference on the low end, all this with an increase of 6 deg. in ambient. Hope this helps, Rob. | ||
| Brent1125russ |
I have had nothing but great results with engine ice in my CBR600, I have yet to try it in the two-fiver but when I do I'll let ya'll know. | ||
| Kttemplar |
Fresnobuell, Here is the approximate info pertaining to the boiling point for an EG/water coolant mixture based on a normal 15psi system. EG____Degrees F 70% = 276 60% = 270 50% = 265 40% = 259 30% = 253 20% = 247 So a 20/80, EG/water mixture would increase the boiling point to 247, which is well above the 230 temp light and the normal operating temps of the bike. Mike (Message edited by kttemplar on June 21, 2008) | ||
| Kttemplar |
Carmell, Thanks for the info. This is very valuable. I am glad now that I did not switch over to the water+Water Wetter. Mike | ||
| Xb9 |
just water, for track requirements. I'm not running in 109 degree ambients though....man that's hot. | ||
| Carmell |
Xb9, yes its borderline miserable. Im really hoping that this thing will be cool as a cucumber in more average summertime temps. Mike, no problem, Im glad it was some help. Rob | ||
| Slypiranna |
Based upon 20 years of experience in the Central Florida area...most related to the auto fields/drag racing/street racing/road racing but a few jap bikes thrown in as well...and I doubt Buell/Rotax bikes ride around this "theory". Water Wetter never showed any REAL difference that we could MEASURE, GIVEN, proper engine tune AND cooling system design. Engine Ice never showed any REAL difference that we could MEASURE, GIVEN, proper engine tune AND cooling system design. Purple Ice never showed any REAL difference that we could MEASURE, GIVEN, proper engine tune AND cooling system design. ...NOR could any other "additive" that we've ever been sold on or purchased (too many to remember)could MEASURE, any credible difference. It came down to simple MATH and the cooling system's design or redesign...as we had MANY examples overheating and/or running hot within this climate zone. Some topped out over 280'F!...before the ignorant owner cut the key or hit the ignition kill!? We ended up with a rule...NO vehicle ever left unless it ran at or under, 200'F...even if it had AC and I'm talking 1000 HP, turbo'd/blown/nos/alternate fuels and/or streetable & RACE vehicles. Radiator design, cooling fan design and/or AREA/coolant flow, both restricted (slowed down in order for proper heat transfer) and or opened up to flow more/corrected A/F, via engine tuning/corrected timing, corrected cam timing via engine tuning and finally, corrected air flow paths within the compartments that the engine/coolant system and exhaust flowed through. This is nothing more than an exchange of HEAT and/or, heat management. Additives will NOT cure a design that is not sufficient in BTU exchange with the adjacent component. Period. The help, though, can't hurt and that is what is being sold. I don't care how much you "lubricate" or regroup the molecule structure of said coolant passages, you cannot dissipate any more BTU's unless you can EXCHANGE them to another component...and in "this" case, that means to the atmosphere. 200'F coolant temps IS NOT TOO HOT...the facts remain that many gasoline engines produce good numbers well above this temp. If you are on the street, run the antifreeze and distilled water. If you are on the track, run water. Buy the additives if it makes you feel better. The real proof though, given proper design criteria, remains TOTALLY, unfounded and WITHOUT merit, at least to me. And this is just my opinion. Post on. Good thread. | ||
| Superman217 |
Good Stuff Rob. Try to say out of this heat Bro. 110 here in Redlands... KG | ||
| Mustangturbo |
Just changing the oil to the 300V double ester Motul helped my bike out. It was 96+ degrees (before the heat index adjustment) here in Alabama and if I was moving I was running as low as 182 when stopped it would creep to 202-206. But when the factory oil was in it, the bike was running over 200 while moving!! I think that with the synthetic double ester there is enough reduction in friction to help reduce engine operating temps. I also believe that there is better heat transfer with synthetic oil. I may be wrong, and I know that there are those on this thread with more knowledge on the subject, but add the 300V 15W-50 it really helps. On a little side note, I had a Buell tech tell me not to add any type of coolant additive (Water wetter, engine ice, purple ice etc)... He was very clear in explaining to me that it was not going to help and could damage the bike. Go with the synthetic Motul, or at least buy the Mobile 1 synthetic motorcycle oil if you don't want to spend the extra cash. Synthetics are worth every penny! | ||
| Anonymous |
If you were puking coolant out of the vent tube at only 222 degrees, your issue was with how well the system was bled, not the fluid in it. | ||
| Xb9 |
Yea, there is a procedure: BLEEDING COOLANT 1. Allow the engine to cool. 2. See Figure 1-55. Remove the radiator cap and wrap the filler neck with a shop towel to contain spilled coolant. 3. Fill the filler neck with coolant. Use only GENUINE HARLEY-DAVIDSON EXTENDED LIFE ANTIFREEZE & COOLANT (Part No. 99822-02). NOTE Reving the engine will draw more air into the system. If reved, shut off the engine and restart the bleeding. 4. Start the engine and run at an idle. NOTE To bleed air from the system, the thermostat must be open. The thermostat opens at 165° F (73.9° C). 5. As air bubbles up through the filler neck add coolant to maintain the coolant level at the bottom of the filler neck. 6. Continue until no air bubbles are escaping the filler neck. 7. With the cap off, allow the engine to cool. 8. Top off the filler neck with coolant as necessary. 9. Install the filler cap. 10. Top off the overflow bottle. | ||
| Black_snowman |
Thanks for the info XB9, at some point my overflow bottle got sucked dry. I need to do this. | ||
| Carmell |
Anon, system was bled properly. I followed the above listed process twice, once Friday afternoon and then again Saturday morning before taking off for the test ride. | ||
| Anonymous |
I sure you did this, but make the bike is on the side stand or the filler neck is no longer the highest point. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Well, if he was using Watter Wetter (has no Boil Over protection) and his coolant temp was 222 degrees, shouldn't it boil over? | ||
| No_rice |
i still have to get the antifreeze changed out of my 1125 before the 4th. im debating on what to use. i have the water wetter already so will probably just go with that and hope it doesnt get to hot | ||
| Carmell |
Engine Ice is holding strong for me. I would say it is an easy average of 12 deg. cooler. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Engine Ice sounds like the ticket....maybe with a dash of Water Wetter? Thanks for the testing...does the lower coolant temps translate in to a cooler feeling machine? I would think so.... | ||
| Doerman |
Engine Ice has a good specific heat value and should therefore be efficient as a thermal exchange medium (given that everything else in the system remains the same). Engine Ice's specific heat value is better than the average glycol based antifreeze but not as good as water. Water Wetter does not specify a specific heat value so it is hard to compare other than Carmell's most excellent experiment, which gave the thumbs up to Engine Ice. | ||
| Carmell |
Fresnobuell, indeed it does. The frame rails are much better, from 144 deg. to around 125. I believe that mixing in the 3 oz. of Water Wetter would not hurt anything. Im sure some remained in my system when I switched over to the Engine Ice. I checked my overfill tank last night and the level had not changed from the reference mark I put on it on Saturday. | ||
| Kttemplar |
It was fairly hot today and I had to drive in quite a bit of traffic. The bike used to get up to 220 in these conditions, before I mixed in the water wetter. Today, with the EG plus a couple shots of water wetter mixture, it did not get above 208. If Engine Ice performs better than EG then it should perform even better with a couple shots of the water wetter added. Mike |
