| Author | Message | ||
     Zac4mac |
Yeah, Mike I'll go check. Back in 10 minutes or so. <gimme 20 to get her hot. edit> Z (Message edited by zac4mac on March 06, 2008) | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Zack I will keep checking for your info. Mike | ||
| Zac4mac |
Mike Alternator wires 1, 2 and 3 had virtually identical numbers all the way through. 60˚ idle - 10.7, 2krpm - 15, 4krpm - 30 160˚ idle - 9.7, 2krpm - 14, 4krpm - 28 200˚ idle - 8.5, 2krpm - 13, 4krpm - 26 Those numbers are real rough, it's a bitch trying to hit the rpms right on. Also, I don't do AC much, so, I'm not sure if my Fluke is Average, RMS or something in between. I really don't want to dig my 'scope out but I might have to. Zack | ||
| Zac4mac |
Mike After I got the numbers, I shut the bike off and hooked the alternator back up. Then I started her back up and checked battery voltage. It was in the upper 12s and climbed thru the 13s as I revved her a little. All is still good, so I put her on the tender. Z | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Zack it seems like mine but you wrote it different I got 11 volts at idle cold and 8 volts at idle hot at 190 and I was seeing 40 A C volts cold at around 5000 rpms and 40 watts hot at around 7000 rpms so if this is right I think the stator is fine if you are getting the same results as me. and your bike can run with high beams on and heated grips on riding around two with traffic lights not highway were I drive at 4300 rpm, jpfive said 2200 rpms and the bike can do this so if riding around town between 3 and 4 grand then I should have been good. I also wonder about the voltage regulator and how it acted with the amp gauge. Have you tried running your high beams and heated grips at full power riding around town not highway, this drained my battery but high beams on the highway was fine but that is only 70 watts extra. Jpfive said the bike can handle high beams and heated grips over 2200 rpms, this is more than my jacket liner at 90 watts and high beams and grips equal 106 watts. Going by this my bike will not hold a charge. I did see my bike putting out 14.5 volts at the battery a couple of month ago have you measured this. if the stator is good then the voltage regulator might be bad. Now Blake I said might be, not that it is, all I can do is test, and I do not know have the info to know enough to know what is working right or what is not working right. But if what jpfive said is true than I should not be discharging my battery with my heated jacket liner. I got to order some parts and when they get to the dealership I will bring it in for them to test, I will bother buell customer service to see if I can get some answers to my questions. I also will call my dealership to see if they can talk to this one guy who know what is going on. Thanks Zack for your help and let me know if your bike goes to over 14 volts charging or any info you can give to help me dio the bike. Mike | ||
| Unibear12r |
Zak a meter is supposed to say average or peak on screen or on the selector switch if it's anything other than RMS. If it has no designation other than AC it is supposed to be RMS. A modern fast acting digital meter will try to ride the ripple on unfiltered DC so you will not get a stable reading. If your meter has a "peak hold" or "max hold" button use that to lock onto a fixed reading. Without any capacitors it's hard to clean up the ripple. Rectified three phase provides a smaller ripple and the battery acts somewhat like a capacitor. With those ACRMS figures at 200 degrees the max DC voltages possible (peak of the DC ripple and not accounting for losses) are: Idle-12.023 vdc 2krpm-18.388 vdc 4krpm-36.775 vdc Weight has a lot to do with an alternator's power stability and heat resistance. The mass of metal in the alternator parts conducts the electromagnetic fields generated and is one of the factors leading to the units "Duty Cycle" or how long it can produce power at what it's rated at. I would bet a buck that this alternator is off the shelf Rotax, modern Euro designed as a sport bike unit. Just like a Duc, Aprillia or KTM alternator. Reducing weight would be more important than running anything beyond the bike's systems so figure a lower duty cycle. The Harley units are likely a lot heavier and the 1125's extra bells and frills likely takes a lot more power to operate than an XB and I don't mean just the head lamps. It wouldn't surprise me that even with the lower ratings the XB's likely have a better duty cycle and a lower operating load so they would handle heated gear better. Trying to load an electrical system to the last watt is unwise. You WILL effect its lifespan. According to the 80% rule the max load for this alternator should not exceed 350 watts for any great length of time. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I rarely use my hi-beams, except to flick them at intersections. Since I got Loretta, the heated grips have been on 40-60 percent of the time. The day I rode almost 300 miles, the hi-beams and grips were on most of the trip and the battery was full-charge when I got home. Z | ||
| Fresnobuell |
+1 on reducing weight and maximizing HP by minimizing the alternator... | ||
| Unibear12r |
As long as you are not at too low of an rpm I would think you could use the high beams and the heated grips all day. But maybe not much more than that. Hard to say how much more without knowing how much it takes to run all the bikes systems. The down side to testing the voltage of the alternator unloaded is that as soon as you hook it back up and get current flow it's internal resistance will drop it's output voltage in accordance to the load. By bad, we are back to AC here so it's the internal impedance not just the resistance. Sorry (Message edited by unibear12r on March 07, 2008) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks for testing that Zac! Great info. I am really surprised at how much the output voltage drops on a warm bike. And how the heck is an 8.5 volt AC output at idle charging a 12V battery (without a switching voltage regulator). | ||
| Ccryder |
Reep: Short story is it ain't charging at idle. The thing that amazes me out of this discussion is how we tend to draw conclusions from data that is drawn from widely separated sources and such a small population. I know coming from an engineering background, with too much 6 Sigma training, has taught me that you can quickly be mis-lead by A) tribal knowledge, B) Too small a population forming the data set and, C) Poorly executed experimental procedure. I know it is frustrating to the riders that are living with this issue but, not isolating the variables will lead you down a path that might not be correct, be it good or bad. Without being able to see more of the picture, you can't tell if the glass is half full or half empty but, you think you are drowning because water is being splashed in your face. Sometime I'll go into the issues I had with my ST1300 this last year and everything that was changed to resolve the problem. The problem only reared it's ugly head on 95+ deg days after 1-3 hours of riding. By the time we replaced the coils, fuel pump, fuel filter, exciter coil, and CPS the weather had cooled off. Bottom line is even after a bunch of part swapping, I still don't know if we resolved the problem. Time2resolve my next problem for the day, later all Neil S. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I guess I'll have to dig my oscilloscope out and see if it still works. Since I see my battery voltage climb when the bike's running, even that 8.5 VAC must have a high peak and a low duty cycle the meter can't show. Even rms to Vpeak, 8.5 X 1.414 = 12.02, so a tiny bit of charge goes out, briefly. Maybe this weekend, I have to go get my personal stuff from my now ex-job, today. Z | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Guys for trying to help me, I am the type of guy who always will lend a hand with out expecting anything in return but when I ever needed help it was not to be found but you guys are great and I hope I can trust this bike to make it to Buells homecoming and by you guy some beer. I have been told that the stator and maybe more it K T M parts and that they are noted for a week charging system, if this is true I wonder if they have an upgrade for the charging system Jpfive said he was told by Buells own tech guys that the bike is made to run high beams and heated grips over 2200 rpms, High beams = 70 watts heated grips = 36 watts, 70 + 36 = 106 watts, this is very acceptable to me, I can use my heated jacket with low beams and should not have a problem, but I do. if what Jpfive was told is true then I have a problem, I rode around town with just my high beams on and it discharged my battery, I ride in the daytime with my high beams on to be seen and the bike had to be made to do this with no problems, but I am having a problem. I read that that most mechanics do not understand the charging system, they know how to do certain test, but few really understand the charging system and I can see why. Back in January I went up to the dealership to have my charging system checked and they said it was good, so I asked if they could test it with all my gear hooked up and that is 194 watts and the bike was running and was hooked up to the computer and they even used a volt meter and said I was good to go. I rode home with just my jacket and gloves on which is 120 watts and the ride home was all highway at 4300 rpms and I live less than two miles from the highway and got home with a almost dead battery. I have had this bike for three month and I still am having problems and I can not get one simple answer on what is the safe amount of watts the bike can run. Why can I not get this answered. this bike was suppose to be my last bike to own, this summer is my last summer that I will have to ride with my son, if I can not trust this bike or it breaks down while touring it will ruin my summer, I have already had my fall and winter ruined by buying a Buell bikes, and Harley Davidson service sucks. I am now thinking using the buell blast I have for touring, it does get double the gas mileage. Mike | ||
| Ccryder |
Mike: It is good to have an alternate plan, I try to also. I feel that you are just getting frustrated when this issue is not resolved right away. You are experiencing more than one issue here and so far they have resolved one (fuel pump). Personally I try not to draw conclusions from information that cannot be verified, (i.e. "I have been told that the stator and maybe more it K T M parts and that they are noted for a week charging system") since I usually make the wrong conclusion. IMHO, if we try and stay focused on specific issues, it will be a lot easier for Buell to get them resolved. All of us Buelligans are anxious to get these issues resolved. This is a great forum that has helped me many times in the past and hopefully I can return that favor. Time2Work Neil S. | ||
| Baggermike |
I am frustrated my Ulysses I bought in june broke down in the middle of October and just got it back so I could ride up and buy the 1125r, I had to wait from october to december with out a bike, I had the harley insurance that covers car rental and they did not tell only ten days or 750 dollars and I went way over before I knew, my fault for not reading the fine print, I thought I was covered till the bike was fixed. then I get a brand new bike that was advertised as being built from the rider on down, a bike for the street rider not a race bike. I get a buell customer service lady tell me what do you expect from a race bike. Now that pissed me off. I will get this worked out but when, I need the bike ready for May so I can tour with my son and hopefully meet some of you guys who have been very helpful. I can send out my stator, rotor, and voltage regulator to have a pro who does this for his job and have it hoped up just like you can with the motor and then everything should work the way it should work. I hope Buell will come to the rescue but they have been slinging the B S around. when the ulysses broke down I was told it was the oil pump then the next day they said it was a clogged oil line, I told them that I felt something break and it was clogging the oil line but would not listen, I asked them to cut the oil line open and see what was clogging it, I got the we can only do what harley says we can, Ok now how long would it take to cut open a clogged oil line, five maybe ten minutes. what turned out to be a one week job took over two month and guess what it was a broken oil pump. I am a mechanic so I knew then what it was but they would not listen to me. I admit that I do not know much about charging systems but I am learning and from what I have seen something is not right. Time will tell. Mike | ||
| Brad1445 |
Mike I will pray to the bike karma gods for you. It has to get better soon for you. | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Brad, I hope it does to. I got to get it to the dealership so they can check things out, I hope to have the bike ready by May, so I got almost two months to figure things out. then my son should have his license and we can ride together allot every were, he wants to go to Florida and I want to go to Buells homecoming and in the fall I want to go down to the dragon, I am hoping for the best it is are last summer before he goes to college and he will be off and on his own. Mike | ||
| Court |
Mike: You said on Thursday you were going to lemon law your 1125R. How did the dealer respond? Court | ||
| Baggermike |
it is a different process and nothing to do with the dealer. it take a long time and you do not get a new bike so for me it does not help get my bike fixed which is what I want my bike running like a new bike should run, I also need answers to my questions, I do not want to get rid of my bike it is the best running bike I have had, I just think my battery is bad and have some more test to do and I got to bring it in the shop one more time and hope all will be good, I want to know facts and hope I get them and the lemon law is not going to help me with my bike running, My dealership is going to really test my bike and give me facts to my questions, which is what I want to know if there is some thing wrong with my bike or how much extra watts will the bike handle, so the bike goes in next week and should have real answers. Mike | ||
| Haus |
I do not have a huge story here but I thought I would share this. The dealer tech at the demo rides in Daytona said to my buddy "our 1125r's have to be on battery tenders when not running, the system is not charging the bike at idle. Buell is aware of the issue and not sure of a time frame but you should see a recall." | ||
| Doerman |
That does not square with my experience with 4K miles and no issues (electrical or other otherwise). The longest it sat between use is 5 days. I've never put a tender on. Go figure.... | ||
| Haus |
Don't know myself either since theres a ton of snow in Illinois and a whole 2 miles on my 1125r so time will tell, not getting worried about it until I find out. Just figured since we had a chance to ask the dealer tech a question of which everyone is talking about on here I would try to get any info I could. | ||
| Krassh |
That is interesting, I finally put a battery tender on mine after a week and prior to that it did not have any problems charging, of course it does not idle much.  | ||
| Spectrum |
I have a question about replacement batteries. Since there isn't a dry cell option, I started looking for premium replacements. The battery that comes on the bike is apparently a YUSA YTX14-BS which is a 12v 12 amp hour CCA-200 battery. I found a couple of YTX14-BS replacements that are 14 amp hour batteries. The dimensions seem correct. Since this is the same battery as the XB9R and XB9S does anyone have experience with these. http://www.westcobattery.com/battery_page.php?bid= 13&vid=-1 http://www.powersportsuperstore.com/ProductDetails .asp?ProductCode=TR49-9062&click=6182 | ||
| Baggermike |
check out this web site www.batterysolutionsinc.com they have batteries that fit and are better, I like the odyssey but is a different size but I was thinking of modifying the bike to accept it, they have good prices on the odyssey batteries to and military and police use them and you can get them with a metal jacket to, one thing to think about it charging the odyssey batteries I think they need special chargers from what I have read. Mike | ||
| Krassh |
Was just at my dealer today picking up a part for my Electra Glide when one of the parts guys mentioned that the first guy to get an 1125R from there (I was Second) apparently has a stator problem. I believe his was delivered in December. Knock on wood glad I got the second one. Noticed one thing when I was doing my oil change, the tech or factory had the tires inflated to 38 front and 42 rear instead of 32 front and 36 rear according to the owners manual. | ||
| Court |
Mike: What makes them better? I noticed that both my BMW and My Yamaha were delivered with Yusua. I wonder if we have uncovered a plot in the motorcycle world? I put a Yusua in one of my KLR's and it worked great with the high powered lights, strobes and heated gear. | ||
| Baggermike |
Court the Odyssey batteries last like 8 years and are a better in the way they handle power, like the CCA of the battery and keep power, I had written them or read some were the difference, they will hold a charge longer to. I had just read some were that a bike with a weak charging system and heated gear sometimes going with a I think a AGM battery or glass matt and said that would help the bike heat the gear better, I was also told that the more amp hours the better it would heat my gear. Aerostich has them and say's cranking amps are double to triple regular types, they have an 8 year design life an ultra long shelf storage life and a low self discharge rate, after sitting for months with no trickle charger it will start,deep cycle reserve power provides sufficient amps for confident starts even when 70%discharged, one guy said he got over ten years from the battery. there are different types of batteries and I will see if I can find more info on the different kinds like glass mat, gel, so I want a really good battery and I like Odyssey but it does not fit but I am sure I can get it to fit, although on that web site there is a non Odyssey battery that will fit, I will look it up and give the size and specs. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
Court try www.apexbattery.com they have a asorbed glass matt batteries called the svr 15 CCA 200 amp hour 14 size 5.81 x 3.32 x 5.88 polarity is reversed of our bikes. Odyssey has them right, but not the right size. also check the price difference in the odyssey batteries from Apex is allot more money, Odyssey has a 3 year warranty, the battery I want to get is the odyssey if I can get it to fit, I have found that it is usually the battery that leaves me stranded or other electrical problems. I know there is a difference between my battery and my nephews battery which is a half year old and worked better than the one I got with the bike so if I can not get it replaced I will get a new battery. I can not trust my battery even if it test good, I had a bad voltage regulator and that can hurt the battery, so if I am going to trust the bike to go to Buells home coming then I need a new battery. Mike | ||
| Red_raven |
Spectrum, I can vouch for the Westco batteries. Had the same battery you have indicated in my 2004 Aprilia Tuono and ever since I installed it had no more hardship starting it. The higher AH rating helped a lot during cold days, since Rotax twins are notoriously hard starting, which in the Tuono's case resulted in sprag clutch wear and failure. Do not be in a hurry to change your battery though. Put it on a tender and give it time to charge completely. I did the same and so far have had no problems starting the bike in the 30s. Good luck! |
