| Author | Message | ||
     Ccryder |
Z: I think you are right. Loretta's dimple looks cute ;+}. Kinda makes her more one-of-a-kind. Time2Roll Neil S. | ||
| Jos51700 |
Court makes a very valid point. A wide variety of UJM's have had high rates of frame failures over the years, and I've never heard any complaints on their cosmetics. Granted, they can't build a beautiful frame and so hide it behind a ton of plastic, but still, there are numerous bikes blessed with a reputation, not just isolated incidents. And flying the SR has always been a daydream of mine, too. | ||
| Buellborn |
How much would it have cost to build the bike with cleaner welds? The welds in particular the muffler is a welcome mat to critics. Some that will assume similar levels of quality may loom elsewhere on the bike. Take pride in your work. It shows that you care. | ||
| Spatten1 |
A wide variety of UJM's have had high rates of frame failures over the years A "wide variety"? Please let us know more! | ||
| Jackbequick |
Here is the description of the ablative casting process I mentioned earlier: "Castings made from aluminum alloys have better mechanical properties when chilled from the molten state rapidly. Ablative casting uses granular mold media to form a mold and a fluid erodes the mold immediately after pouring and before solidification takes place. The rapid chilling effect of the fluid on the solidifying metal produces a unique microstructure and a casting with very high mechanical properties." That might not mean much if you don't have some idea of how castings are made using materials that are like sand to form a mold. In the ablative casting process molten aluminum is poured or injected into a hollow cavity (the cavity is the shape of one of the sections of the 1125R frame) formed in a granular material. And, while the aluminum is still in a molten state, the granular material is ablated (rinsed away) rapidly by some fluid that rapidly cools and solidifies the aluminum. So I think the process is not one that will produce smooth and precisely controlled shapes, it is used more because produces stronger castings. And the castings that result from it and the process and results of welding them into a complete frame may explain some the things that are being discussed here. Many of us have not seen an 1125R yet, much less a naked frame. Here is a good image I found of the frame:  And if you go to that image (image 20) from the gallery it is in, you can get see even larger images of it by clicking the View Larger Image link and then left clicking the resulting image: http://motorcycles.about.com/od/newbikephotogalleries/ig/2008-Buell-1125R-Gallery/2008-Buell-1125R-Frame--Top.htm And that gallery at motorcycles.about.com has a pretty good collection of good quality photos of the 1125R: http://motorcycles.about.com/od/newbikephotogalleries/ig/2008-Buell-1125R-Gallery/ You have to click on a "Continue Gallery" link occasionally to clear the ads and continue the gallery. Jack (Message edited by jackbequick on February 03, 2008) | ||
| Ratbuell |
Just by the description, it sounds more than likely to me (a non-welder but fairly good observer of just about anything) that a flat casting, made of what is effectively a sheet of material in the area we are discussing, that is poured molten and then fluid-cooled at a rapid rate, would be more susceptible to warpage from and during the temperature change. I've seen a couple of bikes come through like this, and while it can be noticable, it's not anything that would keep me from owning the bike. Then again, I don't concern myself as much with how something appears; I am most concerned about how it works. I've spent a good bit of time in 1125r saddles, and the bike works. It works very well. That's all I need  | ||
| Brad1445 |
high rates of frame failures over the years, and I've never heard any complaints on their cosmetics. Granted, they can't build a beautiful frame and so hide it behind a ton of plastic Thats kind of a big generalization/opinion. Buell is my favorite bike manufacture but that does not mean I need shield myself from reality or truth.} | ||
| Jos51700 |
"Please let us know more!" Goldwings, as Court mentioned. http://www.ridersrally.com/sb/sb14.pdf Kawasaki ER-6 http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults /mcn/2007/August/august6-12/aug0907kawasakireplace smcnreaderscrackeder6frame/?&R=EPI-93423 '05 and '06 GSXR-1000 http://bikerenews.com/Stories/Article_011507_001.h tml Kaw KX65 http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml01/01037. html ZX14 http://s201.photobucket.com/albums/aa177/Squareman 357/ZX-14%20Frame%20Failure/ Also various quads (which to me, is kind of a different class of judgement) and I tried to find "We see these alot" sites, not, "Mine broke when I jumped Snake River Canyon" sites. Some have more of a bad reputation than others, but it happens. I was told that the XB frame was designed to, in the event of a significant front-end collision, break the steering head part of the frame off to avoid rupturing the fuel tank. I don't know how true this is (although Gary V. is the one who told me, in XB9R school). I've seen many wrecked XB's and the only frame failure I've seen was a broken upper subframe mount on the CycleConnection Race Team's XB9R. All the subframe bolts were wicked loose when we got the bike, and you could see the wear pattern on the broken lug from being run loose for so long, but it was, technically, a frame failure. I think I'm going to go search for Buell frame failure's now and see what I find. And yes, I do keep in mind the sheer number of the other bikes means that there are going to be more failures, and more types of them. | ||
| M2nc |
Cooling hot steel to increase its tinsel strength is not new and we do it regularly at work. It does not cause the part to become disfigured either. Look at the facts. There is one location that has the wavy surface. The rest of the part is fine from what I have been able to see. If the cause was the process, it would be in other locations. I have done more 8D root cause analysis than I care to talk about. These are grind marks more than likely from removing weld spatter. That said, since these are only cosmetic blemishes and they do not bother you, then enjoy your very awesome ride. I was out riding yesterday and came upon my first 1125R on the street. A young Marine that was tickled pink with his new bike and the fact that he is the first on the block with one. I am glad to say I did not see the wavy frame on his. | ||
| Slypiranna |
After looking at my 1125's frame and weld joints again plus added their locations, I have to believe that the side verticals are in fact a stamping from sheet stock, not any type of casting. The head, tail and engine/swing mountings are cast that is why you see a weld joint at each intersection. Take a close look at all the weld seems...would you invest in individual castings only to have to weld them together? Why not just invest in an entire investment casting and loose the fabrication? Also, castings are accepted as fairly rigid and to crack when allowed to flex while a bike's chassis IS designed to flex to a certain degree and only in certain PLANES... somewhat like an aircraft's wing...in a deep corner, it acts like a sideways suspension. If you make them too rigid the chassis will be upset...read archives of too rigid road race designs of the past and you can get where I'm coming from. Moving on back to the original subject, I point to possible die cnc entry error or actual jig / fitment issues prior to weld procedures being the problem. When fabbing a joint prior to weld...you gotta dolly her sometimes to close that gap if the fitter before you was off tolerace...someone might just need a lesson with a softer hammer or their calipers? Just my two cents... | ||
| Unibear12r |
My bike has the "dimple" on both sides. Exact mirror images and not very noticeable, in most lighting anyway. | ||
| Jos51700 |
And I thought Harley Riders whined about insignificant stuff...... | ||
| Spatten1 |
I was told that the XB frame was designed to, in the event of a significant front-end collision, break the steering head part of the frame off to avoid rupturing the fuel tank. I don't know how true this is (although Gary V. is the one who told me, in XB9R school). Sammigs' frame snapped in two behind the steering head. He was run off the road and hit a rock head on, probably at 30mph or so. Broke his arm and the bike in half. | ||
| Davegess |
The frame is indeed designed to come apart there but it really does take a very significant impact to make it happen. It is a very nice piece of engineering. I would bet a pretty large sum of money that Buell frames will not have any of the breakage issues some of the Japanese have had. Erik likes a strong frame. The second RR 1000 built went end over end into turn one at Daytona when the transmission gave Gene Church a false neutral. Pretty much every piece on the bike was destroyed, the forks ripped out of the triple trees, and the frame remained straight and was used to rebuild the bike. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I thought the ablative casting was a setup where you "painted" sections of raw metal, left other sections unpainted, then stacked all the pieces up flat on top of each other and welded the exposed parts. Then you put the whole sandwich into a mold and "inflated" the aluminum balloon you just made to fill the mold, which enabled all sorts of complicated internal parts to be made. Or maybe that was the exhaust being made that way... now that I think about it, that was the case. Cool process regardless... | ||
| Rocketman |
How much would it have cost to build the bike with cleaner welds? The welds in particular the muffler is a welcome mat to critics. Some that will assume similar levels of quality may loom elsewhere on the bike. Take pride in your work. It shows that you care. Ain't that the truth. And that is why Ducati buyers pay the extra. As for Ablative casting. Do we really have to dress it up as something really trick? Buell were searching for a more cost effective way to have frames manufactured. Ablative casting offered such an opportunity, rather than Buell paying the Italian's more to make better quality frames. Budget and bullshit abound. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
LOL | ||
| Unibear12r |
Aw it's just winter. Over all I'm very happy with the looks of this bike. Love how it runs, just haven't had the ability to ride it enough when it hasn't been raining. Funny how the ladies are taking to it tho. There's the usual jet thing but... Many are putting a bit more of a sexual spin to it. Broad shoulders and a narrow waist. Best line I've heard came from one of BEBG's friends. "Reminds me of a Marine with his elbows stuck out. He OWNS where he walks!" | ||
| Rocketman |
"Reminds me of a Marine with his elbows stuck out. He OWNS where he walks!" What a load of romantic old twaddle. It's a motorcycle. Mind you, Jarhead is kinda ugly. Rocket | ||
| Zac4mac |
Ahhh give it a break, Sean. Some of us really do like the looks and package presented in the 1125R. Not kissing up to anybody. Speaking just for myself, I love it. Zack ps - send your address. | ||
| Ccryder |
Don't mind Sean his romance has just slipped away, or maybe it's just he likes to burst a bubble or two. Time2Roll Neil S. | ||
| Court |
>>>n the event of a significant front-end collision, break the steering head part of the frame off to avoid rupturing the fuel tank. It was an amazing protocol with over 300 bikes, real and virtual being consumed in the research. Broadened the field of engineering design. Doesn't hurt when you have an M.I.T. grad who came to Buell from a career in motorcycle accident reconstruction. Photos bear that the system has performed flawlessly. | ||
| Court |
>>>rather than Buell paying the Italian's more to make better quality frames Some poor soul is going to read that drivel and believe it . . . . Fields was right . . one about every minute . . . one transmitting and another receiving. | ||
| Rocketman |
It was an amazing protocol with over 300 bikes, real and virtual being consumed in the research. Broadened the field of engineering design. Doesn't hurt when you have an M.I.T. grad who came to Buell from a career in motorcycle accident reconstruction. Photos bear that the system has performed flawlessly. Go take a look at Aprila's RSV Mille (just as one example}. It's designed to do exactly the same, and does do exactly the same. Maybe Aprilia forgot to patent it. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Some poor soul is going to read that drivel and believe it . . . . So you're saying Verlicci could have manufactured 1125 frames cheaper than Alcoa, or Verlicci couldn't manufacture an 1125 frame to the standard Alcoa did, regardless of cost? You're so full of crap. Speak the truth or don't speak at all. Rocket | ||
| Sound_uly |
"You're so full of crap. Speak the truth or don't speak at all." Rocket You really are full of yourself. You are such a bore.  Later. Ron With a Ducati and an 1125R | ||
| Rubberdown |
Man, I can't believe they destroyed all those "virtual" bikes.  | ||
| Slaughter |
Rocket - don't expect everybody here to join in your exercise in public masturbation. I realize that to some people, playing with themselves in public is desirable. Not worth responding technically because looking at a few years of Rock-asms, it won't matter. Enjoy yourself. It's a public forum. Clean your keyboard when finished. | ||
| Jackbequick |
"..I would bet a pretty large sum of money that Buell frames will not have any of the breakage issues some of the Japanese have had. Erik likes a strong frame..." I'd probably not call that bet. I'm speculating that some of the hollow cast aluminum frames may be approaching some of their limits in strength. Looking at the GSXR 1000R frame at this link: http://bikerenews.com/Stories/Article_011507_001.h tml it appears to have broken in an area with no obvious damage or flaws and away from the welds. That is an area that I would expect to be one of the stronger areas. And I notice the welds on the gixxer are similar to those seen on the 1125R frames. Buell may have been looking for improved mechanical properties in their 1125R frames and the ablative casting technique was the way to get that. The 1125R frames are not made by Alcoa, they are made by a U.S. company that makes castings and that appears to be a leader in developing and using the ablative technique. I don't think there is any basis for saying that Buell went with the new casting technique because it was cheaper or that the Italian company that makes the XB frames could have made as strong a frame. Changing the microstructure of metals does change properties and it can improve tensile strength and rigidity. That is a basic and well known trait in metallurgy. I took metallurgy courses in college and worked with it as a gunsmith. Based on the history of the XB frames, I'd accept the new frame as better and stronger until it proves otherwise. And the cosmetic issues are just part of the package for the new frame and for getting it to market at a price that will contribute to selling it. It's not Buell's style to design fairings for hiding welds or to over-embellish things for cosmetic purposes. And I think most Buell owners are happy with that. Jack | ||
| Jpfive |
Great post, Jack. Thank you! Jack |
