| Author | Message | |||||||||
     Court |
The "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" . . . thinking is largely overated. Advertising of any kind is a good thing and racing is the cheapest advertising you can get. From a January 8th Press Release. . .
I don't have time to sort out the table . . . but you can see the negative numbers.
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| Court |
Ducati did a smart thing with the RR . . . they built enough to get them in the hands of collectors and promptly sold them out.
Maybe . . but in my mind $12,000,000 to produce a nationally televised 42 minute pit stop is unwise. HD started with a bike designed by a committee, then sent a committee to take it racing. Fortunately HD had the funds to bankroll a bunch of egos run wild . . . failing miserably was the best they could muster on their best day. | |||||||||
| Darkice19 |
Why is Rocket still here beating down Buell. He is still trying to compare it to the big 4. Just because its not the biggest motorcycle company in the world,and doesn't make the fastest bikes out there does not mean its a worthless go nowhere company. Nobody here gives a flying ••• what you think Rocketman your opinion is one sided and set in stone. Buell is a great company and they make Great Bikes. The 1125r is the best bike ive ever owned and ive had bikes from all of the big 4 over the years. Its apples and oranges. Im a Bueller now because Buells are badass looking and sounding. So what if they are not the fastest they are the best on the street in my opinion. And thats all it is is Opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own. In my opinion you should be hung up on a pole in the middle of town and flogged untill your dead and i bet i share that with 98% of the people here. Go away Rocketman your opinion is worthless here and so are you. | |||||||||
| Court |
>>>Why is Rocket still here beating down Buell. Don't worry . . he's been here since pretty much time began. Folks stopped paying much heed in '02 and his rants are providing valuable data points in the continuing quest for perpetual motion. I'm kinda brown nosing up to him myself . . . Adjust to him . . . he'll be here. | |||||||||
| M2nc |
Name one Buell, past or present, that will sell in tens of thousands? I presume you mean per year? None currently. If you mean over the years, the Lightning for one. Even if you only look at current revision, I am sure that Buell has sold tens of thousands of Lightnings since 2002. Buell now has two bikes that I believe can grow into ten-thousand units plus per year range, the Uly and the 1125R. The Uly has become a viable competitor in the Adventure Bike market. In 2008 the bike is more popular than ever and that is a good sign for Buell. The Adventure bike market is smaller than the Custom and Sport bike markets but it is the fastest growing sales segment of motorcycles here in the US. As for the 1125R, its a good starting point. This bike will compete on High Street just fine and even though the big four will sell more units, a small manufacturer like Buell does not need to sell tens of thousands to make a profit. Court's example above proves that. While Ducati is out conquering everything you hold dear in motorcycling, it is losing ground as a company. At the same time Buell sells about one-sixth the number of bikes as Ducati and it's in the black. Company to company, Buell is doing what is right for Buell, while Ducati needs to look at its goals and adjust. | |||||||||
| Rocketsprink |
See? Court can back up his point? Anyone else? | |||||||||
| Rocketsprink |
Again, not trying to be a dick, but Rocketman seems to think Blake's idea of 180RWHP can't happen without destroying the engine. But Sean, you have no more proof than Blake, so I guess you kind of cancel each other out! | |||||||||
| Rocketman |
Folks stopped paying much heed in '02 Correction: SOME FOLKS - NOT ALL - AND DOESN'T IT PISS YOU OFF Funny thing is, year in year out I get enough phone calls and emails from several different countries, telling me what a big mouthed jerk you are. Of course, they don't know you like I do sweetie  Rocket | |||||||||
| Metalstorm |
I wonder what this board would be like if Rocket, Court and Blake wern't friends.  | |||||||||
| Rocketman |
without destroying the engine Building a drag race grenade were my words, and I explained that to mean 'mileage limitation'. Destroying was not in my vocabulary, so please be careful how you represent my thoughts and opinions. Rocket | |||||||||
| Rocketman |
Blake and I are very good friends. Court on the other hand chooses his friends based on their passion for a motorcycle. Clearly he and I could never be friends on those terms. Rocket | |||||||||
| Rocketman |
I presume you mean per year? Yes I did, so no need to go guessing what I meant. Funny thing was, I was complementing Buell for remaining a niche manufacturer. But you were all to busy trying to hang me, you missed the meat in the pie. In fact I'm struggling to find anywhere in this thread I've actually said anything negative about Buell. Weird man  Rocket | |||||||||
| Rocketsprink |
that's just not possible without building a high capacity drag race grenade." Does that not mean to destroy the engine? Grenade's blow up. Sean, you really need to get a life. You are without a doubt the biggest fans of yourself. Again, show me proof of your point. No base if fact. Prove it. | |||||||||
| M2nc |
Yes I did, so no need to go guessing what I meant. Funny thing was, I was complementing Buell for remaining a niche manufacturer. But you were all to busy trying to hang me, you missed the meat in the pie. Yeah, I knew what you meant and I read what you wrote. The Lightning is a Buell past and present that has sold in the tens of thousands so that answered your question. Not being a smart ass I acknowledge your word slip. I agree that Buell is a small manufacturer and I really like that fact. But Buell has been steadily growing. I think in the future Buell will continue to grow when some big manufacturers shrink, Harley and Honda included. Will Buell ever be bigger than these two, well I doubt it and hope not. But can Buell build to go heads up again mid-size manufacturers like KTM and Ducati, I have no doubt as long as they continue to expand their product line. You never know what tomorrow. | |||||||||
| Rocketman |
Why do I need to prove an 1125 could not be anything but a limited mileage bike if it had a Helicon engine putting down 180rwhp? Many people wave around HP figures like they're easy to come by. 180rwhp is the domain of high end high cost state of the art technology for a 1200cc or less V twin. Good luck when you get it built. I look forward to seeing it on the track, coz it sure as hell won't be in a n/a Buell streetbike. Rocket | |||||||||
| M1combat |
"I look forward to seeing it on the track, coz it sure as hell won't be in a n/a Buell streetbike. " There you go speculating again... You really have no idea what the engine is capable of Sean. None of us do. That's all I'm saying. You seem to figure that if Ducati can only get "X" Hp out of a specific displacement then no other manufacturer should hope to get even with "X". I don't think that's an open minded assumption. WRT everyone trying to lynch Sean... Knock it the ____ off. I don't agree with him but I will defend to the death his right to say whatever he'd like to. I'll also make an effort to knock him down a notch when he's a little to high... Or get high myself... either way it's all good to me  . | |||||||||
| Rocketman |
M1, I see Ducati going to an awful lot of effort to get 186 crankshaft HP on what they call and I quote The 'R' is a race bike, pure and simple............... World Superbike rule changes mean that the road-going 'R' version is closer than ever to our factory race bike. The 1098 R is not a replica - it's the real deal. It would be my opinion, based on my limited knowledge of Ducati, that the TESTASTRETTA EVOLUZIONE engine is superior to the Helicon engine(of which I have seen the cut-away up close), and always will be, no matter what anyone would do to a Helicon engine to try and surpass the power put out by the Ducati engine. End of the day I'd have to say 180rwhp from a Helicon engine really would have to see a Helicon close to 200hp at the crankshaft. That the 1098R is yielding 186hp at the crankshaft with race kit fitted, I'd be diplomatic enough to say it would be one hell of a mammoth task to get 200 crankshaft hp or 180rwhp out of a Helicon engine. No I can't prove it, but I believe my theory is based on sound footings. Rocket | |||||||||
| M1combat |
"but I believe my theory is based on sound footings. " Of course you do... I do think it's funny that you quote Ducati's marketing hype to make the point that the Duck is the best thing since sliced bread though. "The "R" is a race bike pure and simple..." Uhm yeah... I'd say that too... I'd like all the squids in the world to look forward to one day being able to own a "race bike" of my manufacture. "World Superbike rule changes mean that the road-going 'R' version is closer than ever to our factory race bike." No shit... That was the main point of the rule change. Doesn't mean the 1098R is a race bike though. | |||||||||
| Rocketman |
I do think it's funny that you quote Ducati's marketing hype to make the point that the Duck is the best thing since sliced bread though. I didn't quote Ducatis marketing hype. I cut n pasted some info so we could all see the source of some information. And I never said any such thing about the Duck being the best thing since sliced bread. In fact I've said on a number of occasions around the BadWeB that I don't like the way Treblanche pandered to the Japanese type buyer by going with an R1 style fairing. And I've said my 916 offers a much more hard edged race focused ride than the softer riding positioned 1098 does. You're wrong about the 'R' not being a race bike. In fact, it's a pretty dumb thing to say given it really is staring you in the face as exactly that. These things are hand built by Ducati Corse, the same group of people that Ducati hand picked the handful of people from to build the Desmosedici. The 'R' is a race bike, except in road legal trim. You'd also do well to remember that the 916 was designed and built first as a full on race bike before it was ever made road legal. See, it's in the genes. Rocket | |||||||||
| Bebop |
Anyone know what the service intervals and cost on those R bikes are going to be? If they are as close to those of their race bikes as the bike is suppose to be then the cost of ownership would be insane. | |||||||||
| M1combat |
That's what I'm saying... You can't take a stock 1098R to the track and hope to win a meaningful championship against a competitive bike that's been worked on. It needs to be rebuilt as do just about all bikes. I guess I just don't believe the stock 1098R to be everything the 1098 engine is capable of. I think there's more in it is all. I'm just saying that tender love and care will always pay off. Sure... it'd be harder to get 10-15 more HP out of a 1098R than it would be out of an 1125R but I think it's there for those who can find it. I think there's a good deal more than 10-15 more in the 1125R by virtue of the fact that it starts out a good bit lower. So the 1098R already has every bit of carbon fiber on it that you can put on it? It already has custom built suspension for each rider that buys one? It comes with slicks? It has been built to the rules of each and every championship that a rider might enter it in? It has been tuned for all of the proper race fuels at all elevations and you get all of those maps (along with a programming tool) when you buy it? There are significant differences between a race bike and a street bike. I know you know that. The 1098R is not a race bike. It's close sure. It's not a race bike. Does it come with a Motec? It has a speedo right? | |||||||||
| Rocketman |
That's what I'm saying... You can't take a stock 1098R to the track and hope to win a meaningful championship against a competitive bike that's been worked on. It needs to be rebuilt as do just about all bikes. I guess I just don't believe the stock 1098R to be everything the 1098 engine is capable of. I think there's more in it is all. Actually I didn't get that impression at all. It sounded to me like you were placing blame on me for saying the 1125 could not achieve 180rwbhp because the 1098R only manages 186bhp at the crankshaft with race kit. Then you accuse me of using Ducatis marketing hype to say that I believe the 1098R is the best thing since sliced bread. Like where did you imagine that dude? In all my posts in this thread, I have been very careful (so as not to cause conflict) to state the HP figures for the 1098R are Ducatis quoted figures. I quoted them to put Blake's suggestion that the WSB 999's were not making over 200bhp, into some sort of context. Given the extra 200cc (over the 999) of the 1098R, it would seem logical that the 1125, possibly even bored out to 1200cc would not make 180rwhp if the pinnacle of Ducatis efforts with their V twin Desmo all singing and dancing 1098R can't get there either. That is pretty much all I have said in this thread. Does it come with a Motec? It has a speedo right? Oh I see. A programmable race ECU would cut it for you? FUEL INJECTION Marelli electronic fuel injection with elliptical throttle bodies. For the first time on a road-going Ducati, twin injectors are used on each cylinder. The first centrally mounted injector feeds through a 4-hole nozzle while the second slightly offset injector feeds through a 12-hole nozzle to give fluid power throughout the rev-range. RACING KIT The 1098 R comes with a race kit (intended strictly for track use only) which boosts power output from 180 to approximately 186hp. The kit consists of a 102dB carbon fibre slip-on muffler kit by Termignoni and a dedicated ECU. The ECU not only has reconfigured mapping to suit the racing mufflers, but also initiates the system dialogue that controls the DTC (Ducati Traction Control) system. The 1098 R is the first ever production bike to be fitted with a true competition-level traction control. ENGINE The L-Twin cylinder, 4 titanium valve per cylinder Desmodromic, liquid cooled 1098 R sand-cast engine represents the finest twin cylinder technology in the world. The increased capacity of 1198.4cc is the product of a larger bore and stroke of 106 x 67.9mm. It produces 180hp (132.4kW) @ 9,750rpm and 99.1 lb-ft (13.7kgm) of torque @ 7,750rpm. CYLINDER HEADS The 4 titanium valves per cylinder, which are chrome nitride coated, have been increased in diameter by approximately 5% to 44.3mm for the inlet and 36.2mm for the exhaust. They are actuated by double overhead camshafts with a radical profile that achieves approximately 16% more lift than the standard 1098. The cylinder heads are sand-cast and for added weight saving the cam covers are cast in magnesium alloy. CRANKSHAFT Reducing the reciprocating weight and increasing crank acceleration, the crankshaft is built with titanium con-rods which are 130g lighter than the stock 1098 parts. GEARBOX 6 speed Ratios: 1st 37/15 2nd 30/17 3rd 26/20 4th 24/22 5th 24/23 6th 22/25 Primary drive: Straight cut gears Ratio: 1.84. 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th gears have a shot-peened treatment to the teeth for race-style strengthening. Well Combat, draw your own conclusions. I think it's a race bike with road legal status. Maybe not a full on Super Bike, but then I remember Frankie Chilli not being happy with his 999 WSB in its first season. When the circus arrived at Chilli's home race, Chilli bought a 998R from his local dealer on the Friday, had his mechanic swap the cams from his 999, and a few choice other items, brakes, gear ratios etc, and he won the the race. Things have only got better, and closer since. Rocket | |||||||||
| Rfischer |
Rocket, Do you know how to do the math the engineers use to determine the max. hp available from any given engine design & displacement? And the math required to compute the heat-rejection capacities necessary to keep that output? And to the compute the bearing loads at that power level? And so forth....? Didn't think so. Until you do, you might want to be more circumspect in your assessments of what is, or is not, possible from Buell's, or anybody else's, motors. Reading a Ducati promo brochure gives you as much insight into these complex questions as being a Volvo mechanic might. But, of course, you amply demonstrate that objective fact is not your brief. And, no, I'm not your friend either.. | |||||||||
| Diablo1 |
This all sounds like a bunch of drunks yacking at a bar. No one really knows how well the 1125 Rotax motor will respond to racing modifications. No one knows if it is limited by mechanical strength in critical areas. Buell hasn't announced any factory racing effort yet either. At this point Buell isn't really sure how much oil the motor holds. Let them take the baby steps first. | |||||||||
| Spectrum |
+1 Duablo1. I agree. I think we do know the Helicon engine has more to be squeezed out of it. We also Know the 1125R is an awesome performing street platform. The rest is yet to be seen, but will be interesting to see how it plays out. I may get flamed for this, but I wish Bad Web had a public moderation system similar to slashdot. For those not familiar with it; based on a users behavior they are periodically given moderator votes. When you have moderator privileges you can vote on posts. Positive votes would be Funny, Informative, Interesting etc. Negative votes would be flame-bait, troll, off-topic, etc Users could set their individual profiles to filter based on vote summaries. In other words "some me everything" or set filters such as hide posts that reached some threshold of cumulative "troll" votes. I just get tired of reading or more importantly having to scroll/scan through certain posts to find the stuff that's "interesting, "Informative" or "funny". The rest is just garbage and not worth my time even reading, much less having to filter through to find the stuff that is worth while. Bottom line is there are lots of great posts here, I just get real tired of wading through the mountains trivial BS posts of certain overly active egos. | |||||||||
| Dentguy |
I have been following this thread and have come to some conclusions. 1. People are very passionate about the 1125R (I didn't say defensive as there is no reason to be). 2. Not trying to take anything away from the 1125R, but the 1098R sounds bad ass to me. 3. Some don't like Rocketman or maybe just his comments very much (I do). Rocketmans comments bring a lot of discussion/debate and information to the table. I don't see anything bad about that. Some may not like the delivery, but it gets to the table all the same. There are plenty of opinions and facts from everybody here and it is all good to me. Keep it coming. Without some of the back and forth we may not get some of the good info. (Message edited by dentguy on January 21, 2008) | |||||||||
| Spectrum |
I agree. We don't want to censor/ single out any individual. Everybody has something to say we can all benefit from. I'd just like the option to filter out the piles garbage posts. | |||||||||
| Rocketman |
Rocket, Do you know how to do the math the engineers use to determine the max. hp available from any given engine design & displacement? And the math required to compute the heat-rejection capacities necessary to keep that output? And to the compute the bearing loads at that power level? And so forth....? Didn't think so. Oh really? And what qualifies your opinion? I have tech books worth more than your Buell, matey. Again. I've been very careful in this thread to stay as close as possible to reasonable theory based on the material posted. Seeing as you, a person with a Buell race bike in his stable, so presumably someone who knows a little about how to achieve rwhp from such a machine, please give me the benefit of your wisdom and explain how you think a n/a Helicon engine could put down 180rwhp when clearly the 1098R with race kit can't? Don't worry about the bearing loads though Just stick to the basic stuff, and enthrall me with your brilliance. And you're confused. I don't do Volvo thanks. And in the words of Scarface "I got enough friends"  Rocket | |||||||||
| Rocketman |
I agree. We don't want to censor/ single out any individual. Everybody has something to say we can all benefit from. I'd just like the option to filter out the piles garbage posts. But we want control. What's next when that isn't working for you? M16's and a full on invasion of Britain? Rocket | |||||||||
| Zac4mac |
That's a good idea Rocket, but nix the M-16s and just drop a Neutron Bomb. It'd be worth it just to get a decent supply of Maltesers. Nobody here makes decent malted milk balls. Z |
