| Author | Message | ||
     Spatten1 |
DDFI (1) will not start without throttle (my X1 would not, anyway) DDFI (2) will foul the front plug if you touch the throttle on start-up, rendering you with a Buell Blast until you pull the plug and dry it off. DDFI (3): Don't know yet. Could the voltage regulator be causing the fouling? I'd sure like to think that the factory got beyond this issue on the new FI system. On modern vehicle I don't think fouling is acceptable, regardless of whether you twist the throttle on startup or not. | ||
| Buellnick |
This has nothing to do with stalling when taking off...or the powerband. In fact, you cannot explore the power band if you can't start the engine... This has to do with an FI system that can't tolerate any throttle movement until fully warmed up; floods easily, and will not restart immediately. If this is part of the engineering and FI Mapping, then Buell missed the mark. After-all, it is Buell that insists this is a street bike... not a finicky race bike. This is a real problem apparently affecting some bikes. I hope it improves but if it doesn't, its going to the shop - plain and simple. I suspect the FI system is squirting extra fuel during warm-up as would be expected but the bike stalls because of an "out of range" momentary air/fuel ratio. It also may not immediately cut-off the injectors which may compound the rich/flooded condition. Any factory guys out there? Any experts on the new DDFI system? Any theories/answers? BTW: RC-51s and SVs do not have this problem...liquid twins...personal experience. | ||
| Baggermike |
I do not touch anything but the starter button, sometimes it takes a couple of tries to get it running and then I wait till it is warmed up before riding because it is better to do so for the engine to last and I have no problem at all, and I have a bad voltage regulator to. fuell injection cars are the same you do not touch the throttle when starting, but I am no expert on this subject. Mike | ||
| Court |
Nick: That's helpful. It **REALLY** helps, on these type of things when you (I'm not singling you out) provide facts.
My bet is someone, since I'm sure someone reported this to a dealer and got it into the proper channels, is already looking into this. Thanks ! Court | ||
| Buellnick |
See the first post in this thread for more details... It floods every time it is started cold or warm and shuts down before reaching operating temp (CT flashing - not up to operating temperature). Cold Start, Cold CT... crack the throttle it dies. Restart is difficult and requires (I have learned) a slightly open throttle and lots of cranking. It starts rough and blows out fuel smoke (not oil). Warm Start, Warm CT... any quick throttle movement - it dies. Restart is not as difficult as above but still requires a partial throttle to facilitate a start from a flooded condition. It starts rough and blows out smoke. Warm/Hot start and Hot CT: No apparent problems. The manual gives the usual reasons for not starting... The dealer needs to check these things. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I'm confused. If "It floods every time it is started cold", how does it ever get warm? Kill the hyperbole and get facts. It does sound like yours has a problem, no need to exaggerate. Mine flooded twice, looks like if I adapt, it won't happen again. If I were you, I'd get precise answers to Court's bullet points and go to the dealer for resolution. Best of luck. I think mine is the best machine I've ever ridden. Z | ||
| Buellnick |
What hyperbole? If you crack the throttle during warm up, it dies and floods... When warm, if you move the throttle too quickly, it dies and floods. I know what some may be thinking... Don't do that stuff and life will be good. Maybe Buell should just say let it warm up until the fans come on and then its ready. BTW: the fans run continuously after 172F and with AT in the 40-50s. I can understand letting it warm-up from a cold start but when I've pulled over after riding to get fuel or take a break, I expect the thing to restart flawlessly. In fact, my expectations are that it start flawlessly EVERY TIME I hit the starter switch - just like my other six bikes and multiple autos. I should not have to adapt to some special starting parameters which are not (BTW) mentioned in the manual. None of us should have to adapt to this kind of an issue. That's just my opinion and attitude when I drop $13+K on a bike. I expect it to operate as advertised. Customers have some basic expectations... This thread started as a way to find out more about starting problems among 1125r owners. I was hoping someone could explain flooding in a fuel injected motor when it is turned off. Apparently no technical insights here - just workarounds (which are better than nothing). I will be going to the dealer as soon as I can. In the meantime - special starting rules (and a prayer) will apply. KEEP 'EM RUNNIN... (Message edited by buellnick on January 10, 2008) | ||
| Court |
>>>I will be going to the dealer as soon as I can. Perfect. That's EXACTLY what you should do. Paying $12,000 for a motorcycle gets more more than a "reasonably good chance" it'll start and run. | ||
| Ebear |
This isn't about adopting special starting procedures...this is about what everyone has been told by Manufacturers since day one.It is EXTREMELY destructive to rev a cold engine!!!..At least 75 percent of engine wear(some say 90 percent) comes from the cold starting of a bike!...Consider that you have virtually no oil,metal to metal wear as that cold motor fires off! This is a different animal than your other Buell bikes.This motor has NO TORQUE at the low RPM's...I'm sure you have noticed that riding it...It has moderately high compression,low torque therefore any attempt to pull away cold will be met with stalling.This will mostly go away when warm , however you will still have to adapt to revving your motor more when pulling away.Don't worry,you will adapt! I'm not saying there won't be other issues...HEY,THIS IS A FIRST EDITION...Expect little issues to be addressed immediately by the factory....and all those who bought the first ones will be assisting The Factory in making this the best bike it can be! --Previous Post---------------------------------------------- -------------------------------- This is absolutely the norm with the Rotax motors. They are VERY sensitive to the correct startup procedure. When starting my Tuono you must set the coldstart lever to the correct spot hit the start button and do not allow the bike to stall in the first few minutes.This means DONT blip the throttle,dont attempt to drive away and dont shut down before its warm!If I allow the motor to run untill it reaches 160-172F it will run flawlessly with no throat clearing...(no hesitations,hiccups or run-ons).Any attempt to drive away before warm will cause stalling and re-start problems.These are cold-blooded motors , totally UNLIKE what your used to with your air-cooled Buells.It is absolutely mandatory you warm up properly! My starting procedure is: 1. Key on 2. Kill switch to "ON" 3......Cold start lever to mark(very handy for starting,too bad Buell doesn't use!) 4.Thumb starter button 5.now its time to put on your gear! 6.By the time you get your jacket,gloves,boots and helmet on,the bike idle changes and shes good to go! 7.Dont blip the throttle!!!Just pull away smoothly and after a few minutes of riding THEN you can blip all you like! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It sounds like there is something wrong, with the FI maps, or the sensors. No-one should adapt their starting procedure to a brand new and stock motorcycle. There is something wrong with the FI system, and I hope Buell is working on a fix. Any information from the factory people ?? | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"It has moderately high compression,low torque therefore any attempt to pull away cold will be met with stalling" This was not the case with my high performance 1000cc V-2 TLs engine. OK, the XB12 pulls harder at low rpm, but stalling when cold?? No Maybe the high altitude that Nick's bike operates, makes an excisting problem more pronounced. But there is definately a problem.... | ||
| Davegess |
First of all let us please stop with the implication that the FI is screwed up an the 1125R. It seems that this bike is screwed up. This is fixable. I can guarantee you that IF you go do the dealer, report the problem, and get them to contact Buell you will me happy. Buell is standing by to help dealers with any and all issues. They are making extraordinary efforts to insure that any issues that come up are diagnosed and fix ASAP. Reporting a problem on this board is not the first step in the process however. People are under the mistaken impression that Buell is monitoring this board 24/7. They are not. Things said here often make to the right people in East Troy but they often do not. If you have an issue with the bike call the dealer and in a reasonable and civil manner ask for it to be fixed ASAP. If they do not help call customer service. Posting here will get you advice and the satisfaction of talking about the problem. If sometimes may get your problem fixed BUT your dealer is the FIRST place to go to if you have an actual problem. Buell is committed to making this the best new product launch in their history, give them a chance to prove it. Problems do happen, they are all fixable. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I'm in Colorado, according to Wiki, we're at 4984 ft elevation. Yes, Nick's bike has a problem. Should be enough to just tell them at the dealership it floods almost all the time and is waaayy too touchy. I hope you get her fixed soon and get to ride her soon and lots. Z | ||
| Court |
Read Dave Gess's post carefully. Buell, during the process of developing the 1125R, put in a place an extraordinary process and dedicated resources to "infant care". Quirks are of no surprise and the process is in place to deal with them. But . . the process does not START with the internet. There are instructions in the owners manual and you SHOULD have been briefed as part of the sales process, about what to do if there are ANY (it's a new motorcycle. .. if it were me and the thing so much as farted it'd be sitting back at the dealers) problems, questions or concerns. The internet tunes you in to little more than the best guess of a collection of folks who don't have the bikes, haven't read the books and are, for the most part. .. sharing wild ass guesses based on things they have known/done/heard about in the past. Court | ||
| Ceejay |
Badweb-definitely a double edged marketing sword? | ||
| Court |
>>>Badweb-definitely a double edged marketing sword? Pretty similar to a magazine or television ad. If your bike had a starting problem . . . . would you wait for the Buell ad to come on the tube, stand there and yell at the screen then complain no one at Buell listens? If you are a CUSTOMER and need SERVICE. . . call BUELL CUSTOMER SERVICE. Operators are standing by . . . .  | ||
| Rfischer |
 What he said! Jeesh, people..... | ||
| Dentguy |
Buellnick, Try to keep your spirits up. Hopefully the dealer will get on it as soon as you get it there, get the Buell team involved and the problem will be solved. Anyone saying this is the norm with the Rotax, please stop. That's BS. It's not normal and if it was everyone with the 1125R would be having the same problem. By the way, didn't Buell provide the design specs? Does that make it the norm for a Buell engine? I don't think so. Good luck Buellnick.  (Message edited by dentguy on January 10, 2008) | ||
| Court |
The same Buell team that shipped the regulator to Florida on Christmas day . . . . the same day you read right here that that was impossible. . . is standing by to help. Call Buell Customer Service. | ||
| Buellnick |
"Badweb-definitely a double edged marketing sword?" Ceejay INDEED! I hope we can all take the bad with the good...on BADWEB. In fact there is lots of good... I just had an offer by the selling dealer to come down and transport the bike back for service... I have no doubt about Buell and SFHD dealer commitment to make sure they get this right. Additional technical insights about DDFI3 specific to the 1125r would have been helpful regarding the starting/flooding issue. An educated customer base is a more loyal customer base... (Message edited by buellnick on January 10, 2008) | ||
| Brad1445 |
Buellnick Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 10:42 pm: ...... An educated customer base is more loyal customer base... ______________________________________ +1 | ||
| Ebear |
OK folks.....believe what you will , however after living with a Rotax motored bike for 3 YEARS I believe usRoute66 and I have alot more experience with these motors than any of you. Our experience has pointed out that,as others have pointed out, YOU CAN'T MESS WITH THE THROTTLE BEFORE THE ENGINE HAS WARMED UP!!!!...PERIOD! Not saying that there aren't issues with a few of these...ITS A MECHANICAL DEVICE...there not all identical nor perfect in their infancy... But ,as I experienced just a few weeks ago at Laguna....if you flood it , you will probably wear out the short lived battery if you try to start it in this condition. The ONLY way mine would start after this is the same way you start a carb bike when you flood it......dont pump it...that will do nothing. You have to hold the throttle WIDE open while cranking it over.It will start,probably spewing out raw gas(mine drips out of the lowest part of the pipe at first)it will then run a little rough until the plugs burn clean and then it will be just fine.This was also drilled in by the Technician when I had it serviced the first time and so long as you follow these simple rules it has started fine for 20,000 miles. One thing we have experienced with our Tuonos is a rather weak charging system.If I run the high beams all day and do alot of stop and start riding it will kill the battery.I'm pretty sure this won't be the case with this model of Rotax , but be forewarned...if you run electric jackets or grips without a thermostat or don't have it wired to shut off with the ignition you can kill the battery pretty quick...but that goes for ANY bike.  (This is just my 2 cents!This in no way intones that all bikes will act the same...however if your expecting this motor to act exactly like your XB,it wont......ever....) | ||
| Bad_karma |
Nick please keep us informed. For me the bike is on trial. If the bike can't perform properly in real world environment, like starting the motor give it 30 seconds then ride, that's not a bike I will buy. Does the owners manual specify a warm up time before riding? Joe | ||
| Zac4mac |
The trouble with something new, like this, is distinguishing "quirks" from "problems". I flooded my 1125 because I didn't know a "quirk". Nick flooded his 1125 due to a "problem". Mine happened twice, sounds like Nick lost count. The discussions here help with that distinction. BadWeB will never replace the service department or Buell Customer Service. It can be a very helpful filter tho. Zack | ||
| Zac4mac |
Warm-up will depend on your ambient. Mine takes a minute or so to warm up. My garage is around 45-50˚ when it's 20˚ outside. I don't keep it "warm", I just make sure it stays above freezing. My Z-28 takes about 4 times that long till she's ready to go. No big deal, in my book. Should be able to jump and run in the Summer. Z | ||
| Ebear |
VERY WELL PUT ,Zack...that sounds like a good description of this situation! I'm betting the resolution of Nick's problem will come about quickly ! Usually, here, in about 3-4 minutes the temp is to 160 degrees....(runs at around 170-180 degrees)and she'll roll away without much fuss. Here in Cali. we dont suffer the same deep cold you guys do and sometimes the issues with dealing with cold temperatures escape me. Scott uses a battery tender on his bike,but unless mine has been sitting for weeks I don't believe I should need one. Now if you want to talk too HOT we get lotsa experience there....like its too hot to sit your bike on the asphalt cause the kickstand sinks in and tips over!(A real pisser for sure!)or the gas tank spewed gas on your garage floor cause you just filled it and its 118 degrees in the shade but at least you know your vent is open! (sorry for the heat description...I'm just trying to help warm you guys up!) Have a great Friday guys and I'll be plying the Cali Coast this weekend...it's only gonna be 70's but hey.....were not bragging....just inviting you all along! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Ebear, what year is your Tuono ?? Is it with 1 or 2 pipes ?? It was not Rotax's fault that Aprilia could not develop decent FI maps for their engines. Aprilia had issues on their first models. After that,their FI maps were getting better and better each year, so I am interested to know what year your tuono is. Nowdays the latest RSV & Tuonos have freat FI maps. I really cannot see that the Rotax engine might give problems to the 1125R. What is described on this thread is definately a FI problem, and shorting that out. There is nothing wrong with Rotax engines... | ||
| Zac4mac |
"There is nothing wrong with Rotax engines..." Agreed 100% It ain't no Lump either. I had to get used to the Lump back in '79 in a '76 Sporty. Actually, I've had to learn new stuff each time I got a different vehicle, period. I flooded my Z-28 within 2 weeks of getting it too, once was enough tho. FI beats the heck out of carburetted, but it has its "quirks". Z | ||
| Usroute66 |
Ebear and I both have '04 Tuonos. These Rotax motors are considered "the Hondas of Italy". Ebear has 20K miles on his, I got 15K miles on mine...never been back to shop except to change the oil and tires, and the darn chain. It would be worth getting the R just to dump the chain! However, I am now old and tired and need a sit up bike, hence Tuono fit the bill. Now, if Buell puts the R motor in a ULY...that would fit the bill and I will be the first to get one! | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Interestingly, today I had my first starting problem with the 1125r. Parked it for about 15 minutes, went to restart it and it would fire up for a couple seconds, then die. I did this about 6 times...then I mounted the bike and voila...it fired up no problem. Fuel light was on and I put in 4.4 gallons at the next stop. It SEEMED like when I put the bike vertical, it fixed the starting problem. Was it some type of fuel delivery issue? I don't know. It has died a few times unexpectedly while leaving from a stop, usually in conjunction with a throttle blip to get the revs up for takeoff. I am hoping that as break in continues, this issue will cease. I consider this a quirk, not a problem at this point. I relate this to my XB. It would stumble, but not die. Possibly an attribute of more low end torque... |
