| Author | Message | ||
     Buellnick |
Started the new bike at the dealer - cold. It ran for maybe a minute and I cracked the throttle slightly...the engine quit. I attempted to re-start and the motor would not restart. The service tech came out and cycled the starting sequence three times - between each time he twisted full throttle. Tried starting again and nothing happened. Another dealer tech came out and cranked the motor continuously with an open throttle. The engine eventually started rough and blew out some bad smelling smoke...not oil smoke...the kind you smell when you are running rich. They checked it over and it restarted multiple times after that incident and the motor ran smooth. I took delivery and put 120 mi on the bike. I stopped and started the bike several times and everything seemed ok. In my garage next day... I started the bike cold and heard a loud engine/mechanical knock sound at initial start. However, the motor started and ran ok, however, I turned it off before it had reached temperature. I attempted to restart a warm engine and it would not restart. I cranked the motor with a cracked throttle and it eventually fired - blowing out fuel smoke (again). Later, with the engine warmed up to operating temp, I cracked the throttle quickly from idle and the motor quit. This time it restarted immediately. I went for another ride...the motor seems to run good after complete warm-up... The starting issues concern me especially if they continue. I've adopted some special rules... 1. When you start the bike, let it run and warm-up before you do anything with the throttle. 2. Do not turn off the bike when it is still flashing temperature... (If you do, I would be curious if you experience similar restart problems.) 3. Do not turn the bike off during short stops...fear of unreliability has set-in. If the engine is running leave it running - especially if you are away from home and you don't need to stop. 4. Be prepared to use lots of cranking amps to get the bike started if you should end up with what appears to be flooded condition. 5. When you turn it off, use the on/off engine cutoff switch as recommended in the manual (also dealer highly recommended) but I'm not sure why this really matters as it has never mattered on any other bike I have owned. It must have something to do with the on-board computer. 6. Before starting or restarting - pray... Also, this condition may be an alternative to the coded security system... However, it makes for slow getaways. During Buell rides, it might be a good way to let air cooled bikes get a head start... But seriously again... this is an unacceptable problem and if it continues, the bike will go back to the dealer... When it starts and runs, the bike is awesome... (Message edited by buellnick on January 08, 2008) | ||
| Trojan |
I'm not sure about the 1125R (it still hasn't landed here in the UK!), but with most fuel injected bikes the throttle should be closed when starting, hot or cold. This would explain the smoke and difficulty starting after the tech had wound the throttle open a few times and attempted top start the bike with an open throttle. On the XB range this is also a surefire recipe for fouling spark plugs, so you may want to check those too. As I say, I may be wrong on the 1125, but that is the case for almost every fuel injected bike I have seen. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Nick - I've posted a couple of "flooded" incidents with mine. Best advice at this point is don't touch the throttle for the first minute or so. That was hard to do at first, while the motor was new and tight. With almost 900 miles, broken in right, she's loosened up and does well, even at 20˚ F. The battery has lots of Amps, but not for long. If it doesn't start in the first few revs, let it sit for 10- 15 minutes and try again. If you don't have time to wait, find somebody with jumper cables. DAMHIK. Z | ||
| Buellnick |
Trojan and ZacMac... The throttle should be closed and it should start like any normal FI bike. The flooded condition seems to occur when the engine quits or is turned off when it is not fully warmed up... Very Strange. Its almost as if the injectors are still squirting when it shuts down (for whatever reason) when cold/warm... The only thing that seems to get it restarted when this occurs is a cracked open throttle. I wonder if the engine computer is closed or open loop with respect to the starting sequence. I wonder if it has to learn something and needs more starting cycles to do so? | ||
| Doerman |
Mine was a weird beast the first couple of days I owned it. During early mileage (first couple of hundred miles) it stalled a couple of times when cold and I also had one incident of warm start issue (difficult to start when warm). At this point, with 1100 miles, all of those issues have gone away. FWIW | ||
| Haus |
The bike also limits your rpm range until operating temp is reached, If you watch your tach needle when you start the bike up and wack the throttle it will only let you go so high until the tach needle turns red. I'll look thru mu manual and inside track days book to see if I can find more info. WOnder if its trying to cut out and loads up because it only wants to run at operating temp. | ||
| Buellnick |
Haus, I have never "wacked" the throttle successfully when it is warming up... It quits on me with only a slight crack of the throttle. I am very interested in anything you find out about this kind of an issue. It would be good to hear from some Anonymous person about this. The dealer has assured me that this is a break-in issue that goes away (as stated by others in this thread). I will be more optimistic when the problem disappears completely. | ||
| Diablo1 |
The dealer has assured me that this is a break-in issue that goes away (as stated by others in this thread). I will be more optimistic when the problem disappears completely. That's just the dealer hoping that you'll go away because he doesn't have a clue. Engine break-in seats the rings and polishes in the transmission gears - no way it will change the FI mapping, fix sensor problems, fix vacuum leaks or any other likely cause of stalling/flooding issues.} | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I do not know if this is relevant.. The first Triumph Speed triples 1050 out of the factory had bad TPS Keihin sensors. Sometimes the engines refused to start. Then the TPS were replaced under warranty, and after that, everything got OK. | ||
| Xb9 |
Here's a theory: What elevation are you running the bike at? If this Buell ECM is like the ones in the past (I suspect it is), it has to "learn" and adjust the LFV based on closed loop operation. If you are at a higher elevation, that would make it run rich off the base map and base LFV (100). Once you get enough time on it within the closed loop learning area, it should adjust the LFV to correct for elevation/temperature. Take it out for a good long ride, and keep riding it. I'll bet it will sort itself out. | ||
| Xb9 |
I see you're in Albuquerque, around 5k Ft. ASL. That could explain it, and backs up my theory. | ||
| Socoken |
Mine acts the same way, only about 500 feet above sea level. It has minimal miles on it, but has never failed to start. It has just stalled when throttled and not quite full hot yet. Then it takes a little longer to start again, but it always does. Once, the check engine light came on it gave a code, but I didnt write it down. Fuel system something something. Then it went away. (Message edited by socoken on January 08, 2008) | ||
| Josh_ |
Hmm, I push the button and it starts right up. Its easy to kill at a stop if I don't open the throttle a little (keep it above 3000RPM if you want to go anywhere), but restarts at a touch. | ||
| Buellnick |
The dealer techs also mentioned altitude as a factor... Albuquerque is up in thinner air for sure. I don't feel the dealer is casting me off in any way. I have confidence that they will address the problem if/when I officially bring it in for an issue. It may indeed be true that they really don't know... and they are hoping it will sort itself out. I trust they will do everything they can to resolve it. Right now I need to find the time and good weather to thoroughly break it in. I went through two starting cycles today no issues - I followed my rules... I can understand some rough running, surging, and general FI mayhem when self-adjusting at high altitude. However, the flooding condition as the engine shuts down tells me the injectors are possibly giving an extra squirt when they shouldn't be... There is still a mechanical knock when starting cold and it sounds like it coming from the lower part of the engine or the muffler. Does this muffler have any kind of valve in it? | ||
| Doerman |
I mentioned before that the initial rough running and some minor stalling issues went away for me. I just want to add that I run between sea level and up to 6000' altitude. In the first few hundred miles that seemed to confuse the bike, but now it seems to be used to alt changes and in general behave as it should. Asbjorn | ||
| Sharkytattoo |
Some of you have seen the throttle body on these bikes. Its big and impressive looking. And if you whack the throttle after start-up, it lets in too much O2 and dies. If you have to throttle it when cold, roll on slow, and let off. If you flood it, do this: Bike in Neutral, hold throttle wide open, Run/Stop switch in Run position, then, turn key ON. Wait 4 seconds, then let off throttle and press the Start button. | ||
| Buellnick |
Why is it flooding if it gets too much O2 and dies? Other bikes (and even high performance cars) may get too much O2 when you open the throttle too quickly (when cold) but they usually do not flood in the process. The restart after such an event on my other bikes is an uneventful restart. Ill try the sharkeytattoo re-starting routine if/when it happens again. Maybe it will be a faster and cleaner restart. Any anonymous input would be appreciated... | ||
| Cobradave93 |
That starting procedure was given to me by the dealer. He said that was a feature to put voltage to coil packs to clean fouled plugs before start. | ||
| Spatten1 |
DDFI tends to be different in every way. | ||
| Rd3501 |
Some of the people testing the bikes at the press release had some problems with the bikes running 100%. Same thing you guys are saying. I am guessing that maybe its not 100% yet. But Buell has always been one of the few companies that has always had good mapping for the fuel and have done a few updates to the XB models over the years. I am guessing that they will have an update soon....after all it is a new bike, and new motor  | ||
| Ebear |
This is absolutely the norm with the Rotax motors. They are VERY sensitive to the correct startup procedure. When starting my Tuono you must set the coldstart lever to the correct spot hit the start button and do not allow the bike to stall in the first few minutes.This means DONT blip the throttle,dont attempt to drive away and dont shut down before its warm!If I allow the motor to run untill it reaches 160-172F it will run flawlessly with no throat clearing...(no hesitations,hiccups or run-ons).Any attempt to drive away before warm will cause stalling and re-start problems.These are cold-blooded motors , totally UNLIKE what your used to with your air-cooled Buells.It is absolutely mandatory you warm up properly! My starting procedure is: 1. Key on 2. Kill switch off 3.Cold start lever to mark(very handy for starting,too bad Buell doesn't use!) 4.Thumb starter button 5.now its time to put on gear! 6.By the time you get your jacket,gloves,boots and helmet on,the bike idle changes and shes good to go! 7.Dont blip the throttle!!!Just pull away smoothly and after 5 minutes of riding THEN you can blip all you like! | ||
| Zac4mac |
That's pretty close to what I'm doing after a little trial and error. Ebear - might be a good idea to add "kill switch to ON" before step 4 I, now, WILL NOT touch the throttle at all until she's run for a minute or two. Z | ||
| Usroute66 |
Ebear is right on. These engines just will not allow themselves to be put into gear and driven until it thinks it is ready, which means reaching proper operating temp. After that, these babies will take whatever you give it. Like Ebear, I have an Aprilia with the Rotax. It is like no Buell/HD engine ever produced. Once broken in, you will find in the twisties that 3rd gear will become your only gear and best friend. Run up and down the rpms, and find you rarely use the brake if you back off the throttle just before a turn/curve. People have noticed, Ebear and I rarely use our brakes when romping through the turns. The engine brakes for us. Now, I have not driven an R, but I suspect it will be close to the same. | ||
| Dentguy |
I have always been a person who tries to let vehicles warm up before driving or riding. That said I don't think it should be necessary to do that to keep it from stalling and not restarting. We are not talking about a full on race bike with a carb. and no brain. This is daily transportation for some, fuel injected with a brain (ECM) that should be able to adapt to cold starts, cold restarts, hot starts, altitude (Buellnick did ride it at least 120 miles, it should have compensated for altitude) outside temp., etc. Imagine if we had to let our cars warm up to full temp. before driving or worry about shutting them back off when cold because they may not restart. Most of the people I know don't let their cars warm up much at all. I know a lot of people adapt different starting and warm up procedures including me. I just don't think that should be necessary no matter who built the engine. It is fuel injected with a ECM that should be able to handle it. I would take it back to the dealer and ask them to try and find a fix if it continues. I'm not trying to put down the bike it's just my opinion. By the way, since I don't have one yet does the owners manual state some specific starting procedure? | ||
| Buellnick |
I am not willing to give Buell or BRP/Rotax a pass on this if it continues... I will expect the dealer to check out all the possible causes and diagnose the problem. I have had many different brands of MC motors quit when they are not fully warmed-up but they have always restarted immediately. Something is not quite right when an engine quits and floods... Can anyone explain why an engine floods after it turns off (cold or warm)? One theory is that the large throttle bodies attempt to suck in too much air - meaning the FI can't react sufficiently. Can it be that the bike injects too much fuel with insufficient air? This could explain a flooded condition... | ||
| Doerman |
I am not willing to give Buell or BRP/Rotax a pass on this if it continues... I would not either if I were you. I've had my issues in the early miles (minor and non-repeatable) but they have gone away now that the bike is fully broken in. I've noticed that if the ambient temps are cold (eh, CA standard ... 50F or less) then it seems to idle rich when started from cold engine. If it is idling rich (when engine is cold) and stalls then I can understand that wet plugs might occur resulting in difficult restart. I can not understand why it would flood when the engine is nicely warmed up. Some have reported what might look like regulator problems (two confirmed I believe). Others have reported problems but no dealer diagnosis of a problem. Like you said, take it in and have the dealer give it a good once over. I can report that mine is running, starting, idling and operating very smoothly at this point. Edit and quick thought... I wonder if in colder climates where the bike is likely to just get many short trips during the break in if there might be an accumulated effect of "semi-fouled" plugs? (Message edited by doerman on January 09, 2008) | ||
| Baggermike |
I am not an expert mechanic but remember having a rm 100 that would smoke 125s and it was very finicky. the price you pay for performance. Mike | ||
| Dentfixer |
I think everyone who experiences any problems owes it to Buell (and future 1125R owners) to take it back to the dealer for diagnosis and put ON RECORD. Buell needs to be aware of every problem in order for them to realize the need to investigate and find a solution. Don't be quiet guys. Let them know. The squeaky wheel gets the grease remember. | ||
| Court |
>>>I don't think it should be necessary to do that to keep it from stalling I suspect some of the stalling is getting acquainted with the powerband of the new motor. Reminds me of the day I was given the CB-1 to ride in LA and was trying to shift it at 3,000 RPM, not the 12,000 it loved. CAVEAT: This is a pure GUESS on my part . . . . I've not ridden one and have no clue. | ||
| Josh_ |
>some of the stalling is getting acquainted with the powerband Launch at 3000+RPM and you're good to go ;) > trying to shift it at 3,000 RPM Sounds like my dad on my dad on my FJR I didn't bring my 1125R, but I'm still available for dinner! |
