| Author | Message | ||
     Toronto_s3 |
As a Canadian with no nationalistic sentiment attached to any of my motorcycle purchases, I am curious if any of you Americans feel any less receptive to a Buell powered with a Rotax engine. Obviously Rotax is an Austrian company and the new 1125 engine will be manufactured in Austria. Rotax is owned by Bombardier who for decades now have used Rotax engines in Skidoo snowmobiles and Seadoo boats and personal watercraft. Rotax also make some very nice go-cart engines. Bombardier for those of you who don't know, are of course a very nice FRENCH!! family who live in Quebec, Canada. Mr. Bombardier created the first snowmobile decades ago and his company has expanded to make boats and ATV's and trains and aircraft. Bombardier is famous in Canada for suckling from the Canadian federal teat over and over and over again. So my question to you proud Americans is....Is it still an American bike if the 1125 has an Austrian engine and if the company that owns Rotax is a bunch of whining, cheese eating frenchmen? I guess the new frame is now made in the states so I guess the 1125 has that going for it. How much content on a Buell can be outsourced to other countries and yet the bikes still be considered "American"? | ||
| Court |
It's, to quote 25 year old Dave Gess written Buell ad copy. . . "A WORLD CLASS AMERICAN" from the ground up! | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
American as apple pie, really. I mean Canada is in NORTH AMERICA , am I right? Need I say more? I think not.  | ||
| Daves |
I always thought of my Mille R as an Italian bike. | ||
| Trojan |
How much content on a Buell can be outsourced to other countries and yet the bikes still be considered "American"? All of it, so long as it has Buell on the tank. It really doesn't matter where the individual components are manufactured any more. Triumph have a whole assembly line making complete bikes in the far east (Tigers mostly), but they are still considered British even though they never touch British soil most of the time. Honda make the Gold Wing in the USA and Yamaha make the XT660 in Italy and some cruiser models in the US, yet there is no concern over the nationality of the manufacturer is there? | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
Well Trojan if the bean counters at Harley were to have all the Buell's assembled in China or Mexico let's say and the bikes still had Buell on the tank would you still call it an "American" motorcycle? I wouldn't. It's never going to happen obviously but I think it's an interesting question. I would consider a GoldWing an American made bike. I'm not sure how much of GoldWing content is imported for final assembly but if the bike is made on American soil and certainly if the engine is assembled on American soil it would seem to me that it's an American motorcycle simply designed by the japanese. A lot of the content of the XB bikes comes from offshore but the heart of the machine, the engine, has always been made in the USA. Combine that fact with the assembly of the bike in Wisconsin and you can safely say the bike is American made. With the heart of the 1125 coming from Austria does the new bike lose any of it's American appeal to Americans? As for Gentleman_jon's post about Canada being part of North America. That is absolutely correct. So is Mexico. How's the apple pie in Mexico? | ||
| Court |
>>>>With the heart of the 1125 coming from Austria does the new bike lose any of it's American appeal to Americans? I'm reading this on my Dell desktop, made in Malaysia. I could, of course, have read it on my IBM ThinkPad, made in China. Both "American" companies. . . actually I guess Lenovo is Chinese. . . like General Electric Commercial Turbines. I had Italian food yesterday made by Vickie's 89 year old Aunt. She moved here from Italy at the age of 14. . . should I feel deprived? BURP | ||
| Toona |
It's never going to happen obviously Then it is a mute point...  My thoughts are that BUELL designed the motor, but because it is being built in Austria doesn't matter to me. IF it were designed by someone other than Buell, maybe I would think differently. | ||
| Mbsween |
Hey S3, If Labatts is brewed in Pennsylvania is it still Canadian?  I don't think people think of the VROD as a german bike or a Ducati as Japanese becasue the suspension is by Showa. I've always got a kick out of the label in my AGV leathers "designed in Italy, manufactured in Pakistan" Given todays world, is anything made in one country any more? What we have here is a bike designed by an American firm, sold by and American firm, and assembled in America. I think that constitutes American in this time on the planet. Besides, how the hell else were they going to get overhead cams in there I think Harley is finally giving Buell a bit of room to maneuver, if anything is going to bring new people into the show room, its going to be products like this and the new dirt bike. Maybe we'll finally get Buell only shops or more Buell focused shops, like the ones that sponsor this board. | ||
| Jackbequick |
The Rotax obviously had to respond to some nudges from the Buell design team to get the whole package right. But it is a sound, modern, engine design from people that know how to do that well. The Buell is just as American as is the V-Rod with it's German designed (and made?) engine. Think of the Buell 1125R as the American bike that had its design least encumbered by the history of it's predecessors. There was no need to meet halfway with any long established look and feel. Is anyone working on a after market conversion kit to make an air cooled, push rod, 1125R yet? I think not. Jack | ||
| Jlnance |
Variations of this thread come up frequently. I look at it like this. The bike is American, the motor is Austrian. | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
Mbsween-----Actually Labatt beer brewed in Pennsylvania is not Canadian beer. It would have been made with American water and barley and hops and watered down to 3.5% alcohol or whatever it is you guys call beer down there. Do yourself a favour and don't EVER drink Labatt beer. Even the stuff they make up here is crap! Do yourself a favour and import yourself some Creemore Springs Lager. MMMMMMMMM sweet nectar. Best beer in Canada. Makes my mouth water just thinking about it. Damnit I can't resist, I'm going to the fridge to get one now.............. DELICIOUS, it's like heaven on my tongue. MMMMMM!!! SO GOOD! Seriously though, don't drink that Labatt or Molson crap it's a poor mass produced imitation of what real beer should be. As for V-Rods, completely American. The Germans only helped with the engineering of the powerplant. The whole bike is made in the states. Ducati and Showa? Of course it's Italian. The bike was designed by Italian's, they engineered the engine, they built the engine in house, the frame, swingarm, plastic, wheels, all come from Italy. If they tack on some Showa suspension to keep the costs down it's still an Italian bike. I am curious if Buell say they designed the engine how that process might have proceeded. Maybe Court knows. Did Buell engineers go over to Austria to do development work or did the Austrians come over to the states to build a mock up? Did the elves hand a completed engine over to Rotax and just ask for "X" number of copies? | ||
| Peterr |
I think the national identity of the engine is such a non-issue in this day and age that it's quite a funny, quaint, notion. I'm interested in whether or not it meets the engineers and designers plans, is reliable, fast and fun, and gives me wood. That it comes from China or Timbuctoo, or deepest Milwaukee, matters not one iota. National pride in a manufacturing industry was a part of the twentieth century. I'm just really happy that it looks like a real, World-class American designed and assembled sportsbike will roll out of the assembly lines in East Troy and go 1098 hunting in the canyons ! Well done Buell.  | ||
| Court |
>>>The Germans only helped with the engineering of the powerplant. Don't be betting your lunch money on that statement. >>>Did Buell engineers go over to Austria to do development work or did the Austrians come over to the states to build a mock up? Both & frequently. I see it as a great marriage. Buell powertrain knowledge in concert with Austrian craftsmanship and manufacturing expertise. This bike is one of the most "tested prior to launch" bikes ever and showcases the best of the best of the individual contributors talents. Buell learned a lot, Buell taught a lot. There are still some final pieces going in place. Very positive relationship that will benefit all the players involved. | ||
| Xb12rdude |
I work in the Auto industry, which has taken a beating from the global economy. This has given me a few strong opinions on this. 1st. Pretty soon (if not already) you'll never find a product made 100% in any country. 2nd. If it's assembled in the US or some of the components are made in the US I feel a lot better about it. 3rd. Where do the parts come from, if it's from a country that practices FAIR trade, lives by normal labor laws and don't violate patent laws......then I don't have a big problem buying product from them. CHINA works underage children, has "zero" environmental laws, changes currency rate to get better prices here and steals half our patents......then I try not to make large purchases for products from that country or any like it (though I'm finding this more difficult every day to do) So basically the new buell was designed here, a lot of the parts are made here, It's assembled here, Austria is a fair trading partner with decent labor laws and the MONEY is staying here in the States.........WELL then the new Buell is as AMERICAN as your going to get theses days and for that I'll buy one. GREAT Job Eric on the new bike. (Message edited by xb12rdude on July 09, 2007) | ||
| Ronlv |
i wanted a buell because, i wanted a harley and i dont like choppers buell was my style of harley now its not, the new buell is not a harley sportbike anymore i am very disapointed in buell for this move, but who cares what i think | ||
| Court |
>>>but who cares what i think Harley-Davidson cares and they have a wide range of great bikes! I've owned tons of them from 6 Sportsters, XR-1000, XLCR, FXRC and an FLHTCU. You'll love the new engines and transmission. Court | ||
| Rainman |
I understand what you're saying Ronlv. I liked the S3 because it was a Sportster done right and every incarnation of Buell has been the Sportster done better. I don't mind 100 hp or the Harley connection. Heck, one reason I love my Blast is that it's so darn Sportster like without being heavy, slow and expensive. With the Uly getting great press worldwide and the quality of the products praised in a press that previously hated the brand, things are looking up. On the other hand, Buell has ideas and opportunities that can make it a truly world class company. Considering the age of the average guy in the Harley shop when I taught my last Riders Edge course -- I estimate it to be about 40 -- Harley needs to create new products to suck in more bucks. It's current lifestyle-oriented clientele is aging out. It's smart of Harley to do it. I'll probably ride a Thunderstorm as long as they make one, but I'm not against trying the 1150r, either. | ||
| Rainman |
I understand what you're saying Ronlv. I liked the S3 because it was a Sportster done right and every incarnation of Buell has been the Sportster done better. I don't mind 100 hp or the Harley connection. Heck, one reason I love my Blast is that it's so darn Sportster like without being heavy, slow and expensive. With the Uly getting great press worldwide and the quality of the products praised in a press that previously hated the brand, things are looking up. On the other hand, Buell has ideas and opportunities that can make it a truly world class company. Considering the age of the average guy in the Harley shop when I taught my last Riders Edge course -- I estimate it to be about 40 -- Harley needs to create new products to suck in more bucks. It's current lifestyle-oriented clientele is aging out. It's smart of Harley to do it. I'll probably ride a Thunderstorm as long as they make one, but I'm not against trying the 1125r, either. | ||
| Elvis |
I think the best thing about this bike is that . . . who cares where it comes from? If a monk in Tibet created an 146 HP, 375 lb. V-Twin that can do all the things it seems this bike is capable of, I'd be on the list. This is a WORLD bike that looks to be as good as the best bikes in the WORLD. Buell's marketing just got a whole lot easier, because they no longer have to say: "Buy this bike because it's an American Sport-bike." They can now simply say: "Buy this bike because . . . DAMN!" Let's see a show of hands. Who here has owned a bike that wasn't American for the simple reason that there were no American bikes available with the characteristics you were looking for? The fact that the bike (and frame now it seems) just happens to be made in the US is just a cool little extra feature. (Message edited by elvis on July 09, 2007) | ||
| Blake |
What could possibly be more "American" than a melting pot of some of the very best the world has to offer? I suppose that unless a motorcycle is entirely conceived, and produced by native Americans on native American land that it really cannot ever be considered a truly American product can it?  If we want to be perfectly precise, we would say that... Buell motorcycles are conceived, designed, engineered, analyzed tested, integrated, and assembled in America by Americans, and they all ship from America to destinations all over the planet. Many of the constituent parts that are conceived, designed, engineered, analyzed tested, integrated, and assembled in America by Americans are produced in places like Italy, Austria, America, Japan and others. Am I wrong in getting the impression that some folks are just trying to poo all over an exciting new thing for Buell motorcycles and the sport bike enthusiast community at large? It almost makes me wonder if some folks are on the payroll for one of Buell's competitors. It really wouldn't surprise me much at all. The only other motivation for such bring-down kinda nonsense is just plain miserableness. | ||
| Jscott |
"I think the best thing about this bike is that . . . who cares where it comes from?" Sums it up for me. Best bike ever, man!(in my best Mr. Little Jeans voice.) | ||
| Budo |
"That it comes from China or Timbuctoo, or deepest Milwaukee, matters not one iota. National pride in a manufacturing industry was a part of the twentieth century. I'm just really happy that it looks like a real, World-class American designed and assembled sportsbike will roll out of the assembly lines in East Troy and go 1098 hunting in the canyons " +1 | ||
| Thin_air |
I have always said "if Buell can give me a bike with 125 RWHP, (I don't give a shit how they do it) I will buy it. Now I just need to see if a Lightning model is coming out. BTW, I purchased my Buell because it was for sale in the HD dealership when I purchased my Electraglide. I will be selling that same E-glide or possibly my FXDX and NOT my XB12S to purchase this bike. Thin Air | ||
| Court |
That's the quote I'm framing. I can name several countries that Buell engineers moved to America from to work for Buell. . . Abe's wife and child are in his home country visiting until he gets back from Nashville mid-week. I'd hate to think what this bike would have been without him. It's a new world and unless you're willing and have the leadership to leverage talent from India, Mexico, Canada and all over, regardless of where the folks are physically located. . . well, it's going to make the going tough. I think this is a stellar example of what can be done when the talent search isn't limited by national borders. I'm thinking, next year at Homecoming, about doing my own seminar. I'll let the Buell folks handle the techie crud and perhaps I'll do one on the "Elves of Buell". You would truly be amazed. Court | ||
| Ryker77 |
+1 "i wanted a buell because, i wanted a harley and i dont like choppers buell was my style of harley now its not, the new buell is not a harley sportbike anymore" I had a little 883 Sportster and at the time it was cheaper and better to sell it and buy a S1w than to upgrade the 883 to 1200. I bought an x1 and not an XB because I like to see the beauty of the v-twin Harley motor. But if Buell makes a new 1125 touring version I might buy one. I don't like or need a superbike. Nor do I care to be on crunched up riding position. I can get a jap bike for thousands less and be just as quick. | ||
| Chadhargis |
If an American dreamed it up, and the company is American owned, and it was engineered by Americans....then by golly...it's American. Just because a Mercedes is made in Alabama, a Honda in Ohio, or a BMW in South Carolina doesn't mean they are American. American is not so much about where you are from, but what you believe in. | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
"American is not so much about where you are from, but what you believe in." good point there | ||
| Ryker77 |
"American is not so much about where you are from, but what you believe in." And how you act. Many people believe in a certain way but act another. Yes the Benz might be made in Alabama, bought my ML430 there. But I can assure you it's nearly all German designed. They just worked the tax system to get some great tax advantages to build a car plant in that state. If Eric truelly helped design the engine then it is American. Dispite the location of manufactor. But if Eric just took the allready built Rotax twin engine and changed a few minor things then it is not. my .02 | ||
| Daves |
well at least people won't be able to bolt on HD derby covers on this one |
