| Author | Message | ||
     Thepup |
"It seems likely Buell has learned things from building the low-production XBRR engines that could be improved upon in a high-production assembly line, street engine. This engine would still be suitable for FX competition and would once-and-for-all bury the "they're cheating!" naysayers as it would truly be a production engine. Maybe the race version of this revised, production XB plant truly would be competitive with the factory 600's right out of the box. " So you think somehow Buell is going to take an engine not competitive in FX racing,build a street engine from it ,then turn around and make that same engine competetive?That's just a little out there.A 120hp production aircooled 45degree Buell is not going come in anywhere near the cost of the current XB Buells,so be careful what you wish for. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Why would it be so much more expensive? They change the tooling and just "make the engine bigger". A little more metal, some new tooling, and they are ready to go. Though they would probably need to add a slipper clutch, that'll add $500 or so. And they would probably want ZTL2, and might as well go to some lighter material wheels. That could easily end up another $1000. Especially detuned. If they leave the red line of an XB12, but change to an oversquare engine, they don't hurt reliability and add a LOT of power. Some "XBRR" reliability upgrades like the silver plain bearings are already in production bikes. The most telling clue showed up in a part that was shown in a hurried effort to attach something to an early race XBRR. It was talked about here... Start from there and the other pieces fall into place. That's where my money would be, were I a gambling man. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
Why would it be so much more expensive? They change the tooling and just "make the engine bigger". You say that nonchalantly like tooling is cheap. It is not. And the XBRR is not just a bored out 1203 engine. There's a lot more to it and when it comes to street machines, most companies sacrifice horsepower to make bikes more reliable. Engines on modern street bikes are under-stressed and this is the reason they can handle extensive modifications and abuse. | ||
| Sarodude |
I think the point is that the tooling exists.......... It's THERE. It RUNS. I think we've at least seen it on TV. Some of us have gotten up close & personal with 'em. The investment was already made. Why not? More power. Taking advantage of existing development and tooling. Not alienating the core believers of the engine architecture. Seems like a no-brainer - though I'm sure there are good reasons to not follow this path. -Saro | ||
| Blake |
Here's a perfect illustration of the fallacy of some folks thinking: "So you think somehow Buell is going to take an engine not competitive in FX racing, build a street engine from it, then turn around and make that same engine competetive?" That statement would be valid if and only if the XBRR had been raced for a full season or three, in a full-on, no-holds-barred, factory-team, two-bike racing effort. It wasn't. It wasn't even close to that. I doubt the total hours the FX XBRRs spent on the track in testing and FX races even reached just the pre-season testing total accrued by a full-on factory team. Some folks seem unable to fathom the amount of intense on-track development required to get a racing machine, rider, and team competitive at the top levels of the sport. It's like an athlete trying to win a race in the Olympics. If the athlete doesn't have the time or resources or just plain desire to invest in a LOT of training, he or she won't have any chance of being successful. It is no different in motorcycle racing. Yes, the machine must be capable; the XBRR absolutely is, no doubt whatsoever about that. It must also be thoroughly developed. There is nothing wrong with the XBRR engine. It is plenty powerful and the bike is plenty fast enough to win in FX. That has already been proven. Just review the facts. Top speed is there. Braking performance is there. The challenge is in getting the bike to turn and handle with the near GP-level $300,000 machines of the competition. The machine, its pilot, the team, all need more training in order to jump to the top level of AMA FX racing. They've shown that they can beat the leading privateers, all that is left is to debug the machine and get to work. The one important issue that is out of Buell's favor is the tires. Dunlop OWNS AMA Roadracing. Tire performance is HUGE. When Buell Racing is able to do that, you would be a complete fool to discount their chances for success, no matter what series they see fit to tackle. | ||
| Rd3501 |
2008 XB14RR new motor 1340 CC 122hp at 8500 RPM ZTL 3 front brake 2 color options 6 speed tranny dry weight 360 pounds $11,998.00 2009 Off road bikes 450 Motorcross 450 Enduro 525 Dual Sport | ||
| Thepup |
"That statement would be valid if and only if the XBRR had been raced for a full season or three, in a full-on, no-holds-barred, factory-team, two-bike racing effort. It wasn't. It wasn't even close to that. I doubt the total hours the FX XBRRs spent on the track in testing and FX races even reached just the pre-season testing total accrued by a full-on factory team." Blake is the XB platform 5yrs old?Hasn't Hals and a few others been racing in FX for a few years?Seems Buell had a couple years of development there. "There is nothing wrong with the XBRR engine. It is plenty powerful and the bike is plenty fast enough to win in FX. That has already been proven. Just review the facts. Top speed is there. Braking performance is there. The challenge is in getting the bike to turn and handle with the near GP-level $300,000 machines of the competition. " Blake I thought the XB was the best handling bike out there,why can't they turn and handle as good as the Japanese 600's? "They've shown that they can beat the leading privateers, all that is left is to debug the machine and get to work." Sorry one or two races of beating privateer teams in FX does not show that. "When Buell Racing is able to do that, you would be a complete fool to discount their chances for success, no matter what series they see fit to tackle." Probably true,but you know as well as I do that Buell has a long way to go to be able to afford success in the top series of motorcycle racing. | ||
| Rocketman |
There is nothing wrong with the XBRR engine. Excuse me but yes there is. It is too much too late. I know of no Harley derived motor that can sustain serious road use without risking serious engine failure. Yes it can be done in production form. S&S prove that, for a lot more dollars than Harley or Buell dare to place into a chassis and give 'real' horsepower. Such would make any platform way more expensive than the overpriced line-up already on offer if Buell were to build in similar quality to S&S. If Buell are going to bring a production XBRR engine to market, granted the power will increase compared to previous model Buells, but its reliability will be part reliant on Buells target market. The old duffers will not use all of the performance so we can guarantee the new Buell will be designed with the old duffer in mind. Any hot shot young buck giving one rice will soon find the pushrod poke will not be anywhere near as reliable as the same bike his dad bought. Tell us Buell aren't rehashing the old V twin (again). It's a dead horse outside of the Buell hat wearing brigade. Rocket | ||
| Anonymous |
Engine won't hold up? 50,000 km in Motorradd; they apologized for ever dissing the motor. Anyone reading the negative comments should read a very unbiased magazine report where they ran the bike for 50,000 km, tore it down and found it perfect. And anyone who thinks Motorrad journalists are old duffers should try to ride with them. There is tons of life left in the pushrod air cooled motor's future and in the hands of the riders who own them and will own them. Any comment otherwise is pure drivel. | ||
| Buellshyter |
Anyone reading the negative comments should read a very unbiased magazine report ... Comical is how I would describe Rocket. He's so blatantly anti-Buell he doesn't even try to disguise it. | ||
| 2kx1 |
OK, we now have official commentary which has not happened yet . If the current 1203 XB will last 50k km's how long wil the RR last???? Inquiring minds want to know. I would be extremely pleased with an rr derived motor, however it would need to put out about the same power as it is in race trim . Now just how much is it putting out,the original numbers are around 150hp but that was at 8500rpm's , and from what I understand they are now spinning even more. so just how much is the xbrr putting out???anyone?anyone? Bueller? Bueller? | ||
| 2kx1 |
Also , I still believe a narrow angle v-3 would be a perfect motor for an XB as well as an extremely cost effective one. | ||
| Mndwgz |
OH OH OH..... A V3 3 stroke, a little smokey going up hills, but good for 500,000 miles. Yea that's the ticket.  | ||
| Anonymous |
No, the current 1203 went 50K miles with almost NO wear! Motorrad did not speculate on the full life potential. There is no street version of the XBRR so it is impossible to speculate how long such a motor's life would be. The race XBRRs put out 150 RWHP, which is more than most bikes, and means about 165 at the crank. I do not believe a street motor derivative of the XB will ever be built at that power level. It does not have to win the total HP wars, just the wars for being a great low maintenance air-cooled motor. A high torque three cylinder two stroke that would last 500,000 miles would indeed be just the ticket for "hauling the mail". I think they are called Detroit 3-71's. | ||
| 2kx1 |
Well actually a four stroke 15 degree v-3, only one cylinder head not two,two cams not four and enough room built in to up the displacement from 900 to 1200 cc's. I think that would be a wonderful compact motor that would fit within the XB architecture .Of course so would a push button 7-speed with slipper clutch ,etc,etc | ||
| Doerman |
Rocket says: new Buell will be designed with the old duffer in mind Old duffer? Well I resemble that remark! I know, I am old (55) but I can outrun the younger crowd here in SoCal in the mountain roads. So far this year, I have not been passed .. and that is on my XB9R. It is not about horsepower, it is about handling on the street. The XB platform makes me a better rider than I actually am. When are you going to get it. It is about handling and the competency of the complete package. If I were to go on a race track, I would lose. I know that. So what, my fun is on the public roads. Rocket goes on and says: It's a dead horse outside of the Buell hat wearing brigade. I don't wear a hat. But I do wear a Buell t-shit every now and then. I am not a person that has been saved by the Buell marketing and engineering message. That is not what brought me into the fold. I am just a rider. Have been for many a years. And the Buell gives me pleasure every time I am out and about on it. That's what it is all about, isn't it? And that is what keeps me into the fold. I like the bike. Before you go on and tell me I don't have experience on other bikes, let me tell you that I have ridden: Duc 999, Duc Monster S2R. CBr 954, Kaw ZX 636, Suz 750. Those are all VERY COMPETENT bikes, but I come back to my XB9R because I like it better. Is that so hard to accept? And before yo come back and tell me i have been "Buell saved and indoctrinated" let me tell you this. I ride what I like because I have the financial and intellectual freedom to do so. Asbjorn | ||
| Paintballtommy |
i think the issue is people are sick of hearing great bike, •••••• motor. people allways want more, as is evident by everyone saying we want the xbrr motor for the street, or we want watercooled 150 hp. i think it would be great. and it would totally expand the capabilities of the bike beyond americas backroads and make it that much more competitive with other similar bikes on the road, ie duc 1098 999, rc51 etc. believe it or not, thats what the vast majority of people want, they not only want a great looking handling bike which the xb's are, they want it to blow the fairings off all those repli-racers running around. I personally love the xbs and am picking one up as soon as the 08 models come out and prices for the 07's get dropped unless of course i decide i want one of those new 08 xb's with the 3 cylinder 500,000 enduro motors in it hehehe maybe even a 2 stroke haha that would be cool (Message edited by paintballtommy on June 16, 2007) | ||
| Blake |
Puppy-Troll, You don't listen. So listen up and cease the trolling; try to open your mind and actually learn a thing or two. I repeat the following paragraph for your benefit. Try to read it and understand it; maybe read it aloud to yourself a couple times. Some folks seem unable to fathom the amount of intense on-track development required to get a racing machine, rider, and team competitive at the top levels of the sport. It's like an athlete trying to win a race in the Olympics. If the athlete doesn't have the time or resources or just plain desire to invest in a LOT of training, he or she won't have any chance of being successful. Now, if you don't comprehend that, then you must also be ignorant of athletics and the training that is required to excel at a top level. I don't know you, so I cannot come up with an analogy to which I know you can relate. You tell me something that you've invested much of yourself towards achieving, something far and above what the average person can expect to achieve, and I'll try to clarify how the same type of fierce competitive effort is demanded in professional motorcycle racing, including the riders, teams, and the development, testing, and tuning of their machines. "Blake is the XB platform 5yrs old?Hasn't Hals and a few others been racing in FX for a few years?Seems Buell had a couple years of development there. " You don't listen. Hal's was a privateer effort with extremely limited budget. They did well for their situation. It was great watching them and the Kosko team out there mixing it up, doing as well as a 4th place finish in AMA FX. Much credit goes to Mike Cicotto and Michael Barnes for their hard work and skilled riding. But no, those bikes were not at all the same machines as the XBRR, not at all. Similar but different. New machines with entirely new engines, transmissions, chassis, and the rest, even brakes, all of which require a whole new development, testing, tuning, setup program. If you expect to compete at the top level, that development and testing program requires MASSIVE investments of time and committment and funding. Comprende? "Blake I thought the XB was the best handling bike out there,why can't they turn and handle as good as the Japanese 600's? " You don't listen. Listen and learn. No leading factory FX machine hits the grid without extensive testing and tuning of the chassis setup and tires. Ever see a WSB or AMA SBK race where two team mates on identical machines, with identical tires display much different paces during a race? Why is it that one racer is able to pull away from his team mate and end up winning by a huge margin, when just last week he was the loser to his team mate? It is because one rider/crew got their machine more optimally tested, tuned and setup for the race. It is not different for every bike on the grid. Setup is that vitally important. In order to get to the optimum setup, the team must do a LOT of testing, tuning, adjustment, retesting, retuning, and on and on, days and days of very diligent effort. Of course all that track time and travel and testing/tuning requires funding, lots of funding. I don't know whether or not the XBRR is a better handling baseline machine than the repliracers. The repliracers are darn good handling machines, especially the $300,000 600cc factory FX versions. Your logic is interesting... seeing the XBRR beating privateers is not indicative that the XBRR can beat the privateers. LOL! What I meant is that the raw undeveloped performance is there. The bike has proven that it can and will run competitively against the top privateers. That is not to claim that from now on out it absolutely will do so. That depends upon a lot of factors, not just the capability of the engine. "Buell has a long way to go to be able to afford success in the top series of motorcycle racing." They are one good sponsor, one top world-class rider, and a lot of development, testing, tuning away. Possible a tire deal too. That may or may not be a long way to go for the folks at Buell Racing. You certainly don't know whether or not it is. | ||
| Blake |
Sean, How is it that you know that S&S engines are any more reliable than the OEM powerplants? How could you possibly know that, statistically speaking, meaning factually objectively speaking? Outside of your opinion, what facts do you have to offer that support your idea that anything based upon an air-cooled Harley type engine form will never be reliable. That is complete and utter nonsense with ZERO factual basis supporting it. Ducatis were once known as extremely unreliable engines. Did they abandon their architecture? Current Buell engines have progressed by leaps and bounds ahead of their predecessors. What leads you to conclude that further improvement, even spectacular improvement cannot be achieved? The air-cooled pushrod two valve common crankpin V-Twin configuration is not viable for a high performance engine? Why not? Facts please. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
I know this is totaly off topic but since we are talking about S&S and buells I have a question. Does Buell have any involment in the S&S drag bikes (ie sponsership or anything like that) Seeing as how they call them buells. But back on the topic of S&S im not sure weather they're engines are more reliable or not but i do admire the fact that what they race they sell and what the sell is what they race unlike H-D which does not sell there vrod dragsters instead they sold some that was more closley based off of a real vrod and cannot compete in the same arena as the bikes they race which i think is kind of shady. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
your all looking in the wrong direction. Give the RR street version a rest. you'll be happier with what's coming. at least what I believe is coming. only a few weeks and we'll all know. | ||
| Rocketman |
There is tons of life left in the pushrod air cooled motor's future and in the hands of the riders who own them and will own them. No one doubts that. Just most are old Americans. No, the current 1203 went 50K miles with almost NO wear! 30.000 miles with ALMOST no wear is not good enough. Such suggest other models might go further with less abuse whilst others go less with more abuse. The race XBRRs put out 150 RWHP, which is more than most bikes, and means about 165 at the crank. I do not believe a street motor derivative of the XB will ever be built at that power level. It does not have to win the total HP wars, just the wars for being a great low maintenance air-cooled motor. Thanks for telling us where Buells future lies for now. I'm sure a 130RWHP Buell will make a great streetbike. I look forward to seeing this monster in July. Don't let me down now. It is not about horsepower, it is about handling on the street. The XB platform makes me a better rider than I actually am. When are you going to get it. It is about handling and the competency of the complete package. If I were to go on a race track, I would lose. I know that. So what, my fun is on the public roads. It's not me that needs to get it. Buell do. In the UK I'm sure the Buells are great in the twisties, but there are other roads, and places, where horsepower counts for so much more. Buell need to surpass, and understand, the significance of horsepower beyond the twisties and outside of actual power delivery. Bench racing for example, is not to be dismissed in a whim to 'claim' you have a more serious and focused motorcycle, unless that motorcycle can speak for itself whilst having less horsepower. Think Bimota. Think MV. Think exotic for want of a better word. Buell are not in that league. Neither with their platform or their ability to not need ultimate horsepower. In the end, no matter what Buell model through the ages, the consensus of opinion is that ALL Buells lack horsepower. That is what is always said in any published road test. Even the ones the heap praises on Buells. Lack of horsepower is Buells Achilles heel. Will this change next time around? i think the issue is people are sick of hearing great bike, •••••• motor. people always want more, as is evident by everyone saying we want the xbrr motor for the street, or we want watercooled 150 hp. ...............And there is in the very next post after yours Asbjorn, the perfect example. How is it that you know that S&S engines are any more reliable than the OEM powerplants? How could you possibly know that, statistically speaking, meaning factually objectively speaking? I have researched the possibility at one time of buying one, like Jack Van Voast did. I have used, and know others that have used S&S stuff. My S1W has their complete crank and rod assembly in it. I have spoken to S&S reps on the phone. I know nothing but this. Harley, nor Buell build motors or their component parts to the quality level that S&S do. I have no doubt as to the performance aspects of the V twin pushrod power plant as designed by HD or mimicked from it. Buell should build in high quality from the get go, like S&S do for example. Perhaps then more performance and more reliability would be achievable out of the box. That said, there is not much reliability to be had beyond 100 BHP at the crank compared to the reliability from higher revving overhead cam engines of similar power. Anything beyond 120 crank BHP is really a grenade waiting to go off in any case at UK road riders pace. But you're right. Statistically I can prove nothing, but if you believe otherwise given S&S's long standing reputation for power and quality, well how dum is that? Rocket | ||
| Thepup |
"Some folks seem unable to fathom the amount of intense on-track development required to get a racing machine, rider, and team competitive at the top levels of the sport. It's like an athlete trying to win a race in the Olympics. If the athlete doesn't have the time or resources or just plain desire to invest in a LOT of training, he or she won't have any chance of being successful. " Blake,so what you are saying is Buell half assed it when selling a $30,000 factory built race bike and advertised it as a bike to be competitive in FX. "I don't know whether or not the XBRR is a better handling baseline machine than the repliracers. The repliracers are darn good handling machines, especially the $300,000 600cc factory FX versions. " According to you and many posters on Badweb,the XB is the leaps and bounds above the repliracers when it comes to handling,shouldn't that apply to the XBRR also.I mean the XBRR is supposedly a stock XB chassis with the same geometry as the street XB.Is the XB chassis better than the competition or not. "LOL! What I meant is that the raw undeveloped performance is there. The bike has proven that it can and will run competitively against the top privateers. That is not to claim that from now on out it absolutely will do so. That depends upon a lot of factors, not just the capability of the engine. " One race in two years that they finished above privateers,and thats proof that they can do it on a regular basis? "They are one good sponsor, one top world-class rider, and a lot of development, testing, tuning away. Possible a tire deal too. That may or may not be a long way to go for the folks at Buell Racing. You certainly don't know whether or not it is." Some of the big factory teams are having problems finding big sponsors,and H-d doesn't seem interested in helping Buell out,so good luck there. | ||
| Tdiddy |
I'm an old American. After I bought My Ss, I sold my CBR1000. | ||
| Nicozzzz |
The true is that the the xb9rr have big limit due to his engine . 1 the weight ab. 25 kg more than other LC engine .. 2 rev limit is not possible to raise it more whit this long connecting rod that it has 3 on the road we bought the HP but we drive with torque in track the HP are necessary .. and 150 rw HP obtained increasing the cylinder size is nothing compared to a 180 rwhp that one ducati 999 RS ( is the customer race bike not homologated for road use ) the same that marchetti ( not so good driver )has . so if you go in air cooled competition surely xb9RR is a good bike , but when you have to compete with all the other bikes R1, 999rs, 1098rs, GSX 1000 k7 , you start every time with a gap . 4 consideration but not less important is the cost that you get to made race with xb9 RR standing at my information with this engine after 1500 km you have to change the cranckshaft and other particulars .. this means a lot of cost comparing to bike that are able to do a full season with his engine without open it .. I think xb9rr is a great bike but very close to the limit of the engine technology, is perfect for some kind of race but for the top race the most important race like AMA superbike or world superbike or world super stock championship (the top of sport production is totally out of game ) | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
what is a xb9rr? do u mean the xbrr or a regular xb9r? | ||
| Nicozzzz |
sorry xbRR model .. other consideration , in the major not professional race , where people like us can bought a bike and race it , where usually people bought bike exhaust ecm and air filter remove the mirror and race .. buell haven't a product . cause you get to spend a lot of money. this is the other opposite but not less important .. when a people want to go to track with a bike | ||
| Thepup |
"But no, those bikes were not at all the same machines as the XBRR, not at all. Similar but different. New machines with entirely new engines, transmissions, chassis, and the rest, even brakes, all of which require a whole new development, testing, tuning, setup program. If you expect to compete at the top level, that development and testing program requires MASSIVE investments of time and committment and funding. Comprende? " I thought the XB was just a modified production XB.I guess it shouldn't be allowed in FX,is that what you are saying Blake? | ||
| 2kx1 |
OK, Anyone have any idea or talked to the secretary's hairdressers cousin's palm -reader that knows anything about what it will be. Not XBRR related ,XBRR race stats etc.??????????????? | ||
| 07xb12scg |
There is tons of life left in the pushrod air cooled motor's future and in the hands of the riders who own them and will own them. That all depends on what you're looking for. If you want a high performance engine for the track it's not such a good idea IMO. If you want a street bike then it's fine. Chevy has done wonders with its pushrod V8 in the Vette, but they invested some time and money into making that engine great. Buell just needs to pump a little more money and R&D into its engine and if they'd update it every couple of years it could be a ton better than it is now. Still, overhead valve pushrod engines are dated. They do have some advantages, but they have huge disadvantages as well. Overhead cams are the engines of the future. |
