| Author | Message | ||
     Sportrdr70 |
I just got the new Cycle World and there is a LONG (for CW) article of Buell, focusing on it's relationship with HD and it's demise. I have never been a huge fan of BUELLs and Erik's bragging about the 1125R winning a championship against 600 cc bikes really kinds turned me off to him personally. Well, if that article is to be believed, then I may have been a little hard on him. It is written by a former Buell employee and apparently a friend of Erik's you have to keep that in mind when reading it but for those of you who don't get CW, here are a few of the main highlights. When EB signed the original HD contract, his lawyer advised him against it and made EB sign something saying he got that advice from the lawyer. His lawyer called it indentured servitude. HD bought 49% of Buell for $500K and made Erik sign over his house as collateral in case that investment went bad. HD never thought Buell would sell more than a couple hundred bikes a year. Buell never wanted to make the Blast, that was a HD idea strictly to get new riders. Buell was forced to use the HD based motor for the blast, even though it costs several hundred more $ than they could have bought a similar size liquid cooled Rotax motor for. Blasts were loss leaders. Buell originally brought Porsche onboard to rework the VR1000 motor for a fully faired Buell Superbike that was to be on sale and racing in 1998. HD demanded that the Porsche reworked motor be suitable for an HD machine. By the time that criteria was met, the engine was too big and too heavy for use in a sportbike. The original XB series bikes were supposed to have significantly different sportster based motors. There were supposed to be 3 class of XBs. 983 short stoke, motor, a 1200cc short stroke motor and a 1200cc short stroke turbo charged motor putting out 155 HP and 120 ft/lbs of torque. It wasn't a dream, their was a POC bike that evidently HAULED ASS. HD insisted the Sportster motors remain long stroke motors because they wanted to use the same motors in Buells and Sportsters, so the short stroke 1200 and Turbo were never built. For the 1125R, Buell's budget was so small that basically all there was money for was to have Rotax build a LQ motor and stuff it in existing XB frame/running gear. HD insisted that the 1125R be a 1/2 faired bike because they did not want to be seen as competing head to head with the Japs. It's intimated that this is why it's so odd looking. 1/2 fairing just doesn't work with those side mounted radiators. It's estimated that it cost HD $125 million to divest Buell. EB arranged for Bombadier (Canadian parent company of Rotax) to purchase the rights to Buells to continue manufacturing them in 12/09. Rotax was still owed over $10 million for the contract to build 1125R motors and were willing to forgive that contract as part of the deal. HD said no, and made good on their contract for the 1125R motors never to be built. It's estimated that it cost HD the same amount of money to divest Buell as they had ever put into Buell. EB non-compete clause runs out in March 2011. Those are just the highlights, there is much more and a good read....I recommend it. Based on that article, I don't think EB is done making street legal motorcycles (EB Racing is building straight race bikes) and I have to say, if that article is remotely accurate then I'm definitely rooting for him. And I have even less respect for HD....and I didn't think that was possible. | ||
| Gregc |
PS I wish EB all the best in his new co. I cant wait to see what he can do now! | ||
| Froggy |
Totally inappropriate first post. | ||
| Froggy |
I meant Gregc's now removed first post. Sportrdr70, I am glad you enjoyed the article. Steve Anderson is a great guy, he even has posted on here occasionally in the past. | ||
| Royintulsa |
How can I delete my post? Since the offensive post was removed, I don't want to give any traction to it. | ||
| Royintulsa |
duh! scrolled down and found the tab. | ||
| Froggy |
Yours was fine, I would of taken care of it too if I felt it was necessary  | ||
| Royintulsa |
You know, this board has always been a haven of moto chat only, I was just as mad about his violation of this rules as I was his antisemitism. | ||
| Froggy |
You must of not seen any of the religious or political threads on the Quick Board section!  | ||
| Doug_s |
as a jew who proudly wears a "free palestine" pin, and has had an "israel = apartheid" sticker displayed on my car, even i was offended by gregc's post - it is simply not true! while h-d has certainly pandered to yuppies, their religious orientation has nothing to do w/it. the overwhelming majority of yup h-d owners are goyim!  ymmv, doug s. | ||
| Davegess |
I can vouch for the CW article. Steve speaks the truth. There are a few things he has left out because legally he is obligated to. Other than the stuff he can't say, and none of it would make HD look any better, that story is spot on. Erik made a deal with the devil and the devil finally got his due. Buell likely would not have gotten this far without HD but erik was never able to negotiate the HD politics well enough to get the resources he needed. Too many of his allies were unable or unwilling to really come to his aid when needed. When Bleustein retired Erik lost his number one ally and the one who really made the whole Buell story happen as it did. | ||
| Mbsween |
I agree that it was a good article. I also have read the John Burns article posted on cycle world.com. Erik seems to be handling the situation well, to put it mildly. I know hope is a good strategy, nevertheless, hopefully in a couple years Steve gets to write the comeback of the century/decade/year/month/week/day (take yer pick) and we all get to ride something cool and different again It will be interesting to see what happens to HD in the meantime, but it would be great to see Buell (or whatever it ends up being named) without the baggage | ||
| Court |
The article is . . . as would be expected from Steve Anderson . . . perfectly accurate. The story is no where near over. Much is being written. Steve has been intimately involved for many years and will most certainly keep us all informed. I always enjoy reading his writing. | ||
| Rightpecial |
I bought this issue of Cycle World, something I would normally never do, and it pretty much cemented my hatred of HD...I was starting to forget and lust after a Road Glide, but after this not so much. I can only imagine how we Buell fans will feel as more comes out. Here's to praying that Eric gets out a second gen Uly(won't be called that of course) before mine wears out. Would hate to spend money on a KTM, BMW, or Yamaha, but HD certainly won't see my money again. Simply treacherous business ethics. | ||
| Rohorn |
There are times when I've wanted to read the inside history of the entire VR1000 racer program (along with all the above) until I realise that the people qualified to tell the objective story probably have more positive things to do with their time. That's why I'm hoping that, if all the sordid tales of H-D's WTFocracy are anything to go by, all sorts of fast, spiffy, and neato stuff is imminent - and not from H-D. I'd rather see that than the sordid history book... | ||
| Skifastbadly |
I read the article last night. Caused a bit of cognitive dissonance, actually. See, I have both a Harley and a Uly. The Harley is an 04 Heritage, the Uly is an 07. They have about the same number of miles now, which gives you some idea of my preference. Harley and I go back quite a way...I'm originally from Milwaukee, I used to sell software to HD (FEA stuff from SDRC if that matters any) and my wife is a direct descendant of Wm. Davidson. So, while I always ride ATGATT, don't own assless chaps, and don't even have a tattoo, I sort of get the Harley thing. Hell, I'm wearing a HD golf shirt as I type this. When I read the article, I got pretty pissed off. But I have to tell you, it's not unlike a bunch of stuff I've experienced in my corporate life. It's a damned shame, but I don't blame it on the 98% of the HD employees who are NOT in the boardroom when these decisions get made. Here's something to think about. I'll likely get flamed for it, but eh, I don't drink with you guys anyway. When EB signed the contract that his lawyer told him not to sign, he gave up his autonomy. But he did gain the ability to go on for awhile. I really love my Uly. I hope I have it for another 10 years. And I doubt sincerely that without HD's funding, Buell would have lasted long enough to produce it. So it's an imperfect outcome, and it certainly looks the ex CEO of the auto interiors/building control systems/soda bottles look like a putz...but without HD we likely would not have our Ulys or other bikes. Eh, just a thought. Happy easter. | ||
| Azbuell |
Go to Harley Davidson web page to Investor relations , contact investor relations and e-mail them from investor relations about what you think about their handling of Buell. Ranting and profanity won't help but a calm rational discussion of how their incompetence screwed the stock holders and the employees they laid off and how you won't EVER buy anything else from them might have an effect' I am sure as hell that In won't ever invest anything else in HD and sure as hell won't buy a bike from them | ||
| Buell2001b |
I have to agree with skifastbadly as much as I hate it. I hate the desicion or the way HD managed Buell, but if it was not without their financing Buell have not been able to build that many bikes. I truly wish HD would eventually bring Buell back. | ||
| Court |
>>>but if it was not without their financing Buell have not been able to build that many bikes. I'm not up to argue it but that is patently inaccurate. Unless . . . you think ONLY Harley-Davidson's money would have worked. | ||
| Fast2win |
After reading the article would you really want them to bring back buell. I think at this point he's better off on his own, assuming he can get funding elsewhere for the rotax powered buells. Unfortunately the XL powered buell may never have seen their full potential. I always wondered why they didn't make a short stroke 1200cc or a street version of the XBRR 1340. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Court, I don't think anyone's trying to start an argument, we're all Buell fans here. But I do wonder why, if his lawyer told him not to sign the agreement with HD, he went ahead anyway, if there were other financial alternatives for him. | ||
| Ljm |
For my part, I am just bummed at the lost possibilities over the years. Even the blast could have been much better than it was and filled a valuable niche in the market if a more enlightened approach was taken. Same can be said of the whole line really. Many of us are just waiting for the next step sometime after the first of next year. Those of us who will never race but still like the bikes hope it includes something for the street with Erik's ingenuity involved. | ||
| 46champ |
Skifastbadly: i'm merely speculating but Mr. Buell may have felt that Harley was the best way to go. They already had dealerships a parts system and a technical service system all of this he would have to create. I think up to that time he was satisfied with the dealer support he was getting the dealers he dealt with for the most part knew what a sport bike was. | ||
| Weatherman |
part of the appeal of early (2000 or so ) buells was that you had something different, exotic with excellent handling and an extensive dealer network (although admittedly some were reluctant ). compare that to the number of ducati, aprillia, bmw, ktm,or triumph dealers around. for street riding (not track) the h-d motors massaged by buell were excellent for most purposes. great torque got you moving right off idle and red line was less of a concern for that type of riding. of course, we might have had both!!! it could have been so beautiful - but oh well. lets move forward. | ||
| Court |
Harley, at that point in time, was the best of the available suitors . . . primarily as a result of familiarity and the fact that their deal, as lame as it was, was on the table while others were in the works. That, of course, was when the name Erik Buell was unknown. Things are different now that the name is synonymous with creativity and innovation in the motorcycle industry. | ||
| Davegess |
I agree with Court. The H-D deal was a "bird in the hand" at a time when Erik was on the verge of shutting down. If Beals had not retired I think the story would have played out much differently. Beals was the driving force behind H-D supporting Buell. I used to handle purchasing all the parts for the bikes back in the RS days. we were set up as a dealer but with hugely generous terms; 90 days same as cash. We had 4 engines coming each and every week and one week the engine truck did not show up. I called my contact at H-D and they bumped me up to someone in finance, I can’t remember his name but he was always helpful, and I was told that yes we have 90 days to pay BUT unknown to us there was a dollar limit on us and we had exceeded it. I grabbed Erik and told him, he sorta sighed and said “I’ll call Vaughn”. About two hours later I get a call that the engines are on the way and out limit has been bumped up to a point were we would never hit it. Erik has always spent a lot of time selling his vision to Juneau and was never 100 % successful. Even when he won the battles there were folks who worked hard to undermine his victories. It is telling that the decision was made to not tell Erik about the shut down until the last minute. They were correct that if he had three weeks he may well have drummed up enough support to save the company. I also agree with Court that the course we are on, although very painful, is likely to result in some tryly amazing MC in the next few years. Erik has the credibility now to demand respect and support and he is going to get it. I can’t wait. | ||
| Court |
Much will be revealed . . . loosely encrypted. . . by the end of May. Buell has always been about good people doing good things. That remains true. I'm thrilled to see the exciting places that Elves are appearing and the exciting things on the horizon. In the meantime . . . Erik is scrambling to prepare for The Thunderbolts upcoming trip to Europe. | ||
| Transmaniacon_mc |
The H-D board of directors knew they were closing Buell when they last minute canceled building the new Buell manufacturing plant last May. Closing Buell was a way to break the unions contacts and show a lot of money loss on there books to shareholders. Erik Buell Racing is manufacturing real race bikes, this is the new Buell motorcycle company right now. Racing is what Erik loves so building real race bikes like he is now may end up being his dream come true. Hey look at Ducati a small little motorcycle manufacturer like Buell was. Look at how they have done since becoming a private company. Ducati sales and market share I know will grow the most from H-D closing Buell. Hopefully Buell can do the same as Ducati has done with racing. Every one loves a race winner, except maybe Harley-Davidson. | ||
| Davegess |
The H-D board of directors knew they were closing Buell when they last minute canceled building the new Buell manufacturing plant last May. Closing Buell was a way to break the unions contacts and show a lot of money loss on there books to shareholders. Thsi is not correct. For one thing no union at Buell. | ||
| Court |
>>>Closing Buell was a way to break the unions contacts and show a lot of money loss on there books to shareholders. Huh? What union contracts? How were they broken? I was a shareholder. I didn't want to see a big loss. Why would a shareholder want to see a big loss? I think most your information, to quote Court, is "inaccurate". |
