| Author | Message | ||
     Xl1200r |
I have a feeling all the Sportsters will end up there. All of the Sportsters are already in KC. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Hey, Spatten, there ARE unions in the South, although not to the degree of some northern states. Furthermore, the South isn't immune to the closing of factories and the loss of jobs. | ||
| Old_man |
Get rid of the unions. Then get used to working for minimum wage. Maybe, get rid of the minimum wage law. Then we will be competitive with China and Mexico. But then, who will be able to buy here. We could sell to Europe. Cheap! But, at least, you will have a job. Won't that make you HAPPY! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
+1 Spatten! The ONLY place new factories are being built is in the south. What do we southern states have in common? Low/no income taxes, competitive cost of living, right to work. Odd that not all American jobs are "American". | ||
| Old_man |
What do you think about the salary of the co-pilot in that plane crash. $16,000 per year What a shame. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
There are other jobs that pay more. Her wage had nothing to do with the crash. | ||
| Old_man |
Sometimes, you get what you pay for. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Isn't the pilot's union supposed to fix that? | ||
| Imonabuss |
Here's a story for those who scream management who ask for wage and benefit reductions really want to drive the workforce to $3 per hour. Let's say you have 8,000 workers making $55 per hour with wage and benefits, or $114,000 per year ($55 is lower than autoworkers, mind you). That equals $915 million dollars per year for the company to pay out. Now the company leadership announces that based on all their research the company is headed towards big trouble and they need to cut wages and benefits 10%. A ten percent wage and benefits cut would yield $91.5 million in savings for the company, and maybe let it survive a crisis. And the employees still make 49.50 per hour. Pretty far above minimum wage isn't it? But of course the executives who suggest this are vilified by the workforce, who go on strike, causing the executives to give in and not get to spend the $91 million desparately needed for technical experts and equipment to modernize the plant. So the product quality degrades to the point where imports being made by workers making $12 per hour (and delighted to do so), are now better. The US company is vilified by the politicians for having bad management, and shut down. Workers sign up for unemployment at $360 per week (that's $9 per hour, but of course you don't have to work). But you can hang out at the bar and get drunk while your kids are neglected and start drinking early in life, have no prospects in life and turn to crime. Of course you could have had that extra $40 per hour but then you wouldn't have been able to blame someone else. And if those ten executives had cut their pay down to the same as the workers from the average of $400,00 each they were making, that would have saved the company, huh. I mean ($400,000 - $114,000)*10 is really a lotta money, right? (it's $2,85 million,BTW). Oh, that still left us $89 million short of the goal to re-do the plant. But this is just a silly story, not a reality check, right? We all know that management are really demons who want to make everyone make so little money that they can't sell the product of the company they run. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
C'mon 'Buss. You know it's all rich whitey's fault. You corporate shill sell out. | ||
| Imonabuss |
I know, I know, but remember I'm trying to get my promotion to a two star demon... | ||
| Court |
>>>>But this is just a silly story, Sounds true. Many see to the end of their nose and then the blur begins . . . | ||
| Old_man |
Isn't the pilot's union supposed to fix that? Do you REALLY think she belonged to a union? | ||
| Dbird29 |
I doubt she was thinking about unionizing as she was dying. I also think it kind of chicken crap to exploit her death for yet another troll post.  | ||
| Spatten1 |
Buss nailed it. I remember a few years ago listening to an interview of an ex-GM exec. He said that in the 1980's they made concessions to the unions that they knew would doom the company in 20 years, but they had to get the line back up and there was no other way to re-start production and keep the company from failing at that moment. Sure, GM execs are to blame too. There is a reason perception is that Toyota and Honda have higher quality. That's not the union's fault. However, the unions pension and wage demands did doom the companies financially, only to be made worse by managment that is unbelievably and arrogantly out of touch with the consumer. I remember when it was embarassing to drive a Japanese car. Now it's normal. Consumers make decisions based on price and quality.....with the exception being the brand loyal folks that have kept these companies in business through the abysmal 80's and 90's. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Do you REALLY think she belonged to a union? You know she was. | ||
| M2nc |
Union worker = quality product? Which is better made a Toyota Camry in Kentucky or Chevy Malibu in Michigan? Quality products come from a quality based management systems, not if a business has union employees. Unionizing a shop adds nothing to the build quality of a product. I can understand HD looking at other options. Right to work states were thriving when the US dollar dropped in value and new factories popped up, most from foreign companies. Even today these states are fairing better than Union states and it is easy to see why. Here recently the York plant was asked for concessions and union workers refused even though I thought the request was reasonable. You know adding a union to a shop does not make all employees the best stewards of a business. Sometimes hard decisions have to be made for the betterment of the company. If you have to win a popularity contest every time you have to make one, the company will turn to shit pretty quick. Now the York employees may reap what they sowed. I just hope if HD moves they stay within the US. Not all areas of the country are pro-union. | ||
| Court |
Tough to say if any of this has to do with unions. In my own mind . . . . Unions started digging their own grave (about the end of my Dad's career) when their selling point morphed from being a source of skilled, well trained craftsperson to the "you HAVE to use us or else". No place are the effects more evident than here in New York, the most union of union towns right along with St. Louis. When I moved to NYC 12 years ago . . . you would not DREAM of even trying to enter the city (the Teamsters monitor the tunnels and bridges and check cards) and yet today union membership continues to decline. The key is productivity. Management, I suspect, rarely cares what it is that erodes productivity . . . it could be inflated (let's face it the oiler on the Staten Island Ferry is NOT worth $163,000/yr, local taxes, availability of transportation, or their heating and cooling costs . . . like an amoeba moving from a adverse stimulus, management will seek an environment that allows the business model to work. My bet. . .if HD WERE moving (and I'm not convinced they are) would be that the move the Kansas City plant. Transportation (sitting at the intersection of virtually every N-S and E-W interstate) where cheap land and available labor may tip the scale. One things certain . . . . regardless of WHY . . they need to do something quick. | ||
| Court |
By the way . . . . I am sure others here have studied Labor Law, History and Legislation but for the benefit of anyone interested here's some pretty decent reading. I confess my own formal education dates back to '77 but having studied it and been around unions . . . in the days when they were truly a source of skilled labor and later being threatened by them . . I think I have a fairly comprehensive background.  | ||
| Old_man |
Two INCOMPETANT people with the lives of all those trusting people in their hands. That's what is sad. | ||
| Old_man |
Many see to the end of their nose and then the blur begins . . . Very true, on both sides of the issue. I personally watched a union help to kill their own jobs. But I know that without unions this country would not have achieved what it has in the past. (Message edited by old_man on May 15, 2009) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Past. Hmmmm. | ||
| Old_man |
You're right, "in the past" is redundant. But I know that without unions this country would not have achieved what it has. | ||
| Hootowl |
Unions still have their place in the trades, plumbing, carpentry etc. as they are a vehicle of training. Auto worker unions in today's factories are a joke. How much training do you need to have to bolt a seat into a car as it goes by? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Wouldn't you say, then, Old_man what used to be an organization that served the needs of it's members in the PAST now serves the needs of itself in the PRESENT? | ||
| Old_man |
Too often, that is the way it is. But, we must remember that we developed a large middle class in this country because of unions. | ||
| Jstfrfun |
Take a look around you, the class separation is more the haves and the have nots anymore. There was a time when this nation NEEDED unions, but the creature got too big and now serves only its self. On an interview with a young black woman who works for Chrisler, when asked if she would accept wage consessions, she stated"I only make 28.00 per hour, If they want to drop that to say 14.00 per hour then I'll quit! I can go anywhere and work for 14.00 per hour", she obviously has'nt been out looking for jobs lately, there are a lot of people who would take that job for 14.00 and be happy for it! | ||
| Old_man |
Price is not what's killing the car industry. Someone who has to worry about feeding his family or providing medical care is not going to buy a new car. Even if you drop the price. | ||
| Court |
>>>>But I know that without unions this country would not have achieved what it has. I could not agree more and proud that my Grandfather stood strong when his company threatened to fire him for organizing. My Father, at one time, was an Assistant Business Agent and I got my first "white ticket" at the age of 14. You are absolutely right. By the way . . . the automobile would not be what it is today had it not been for the steering column mounted throttle advance. | ||
| Old_man |
I got it. Don't buy it, but I got it. |
