| Author |
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Jerseyguy
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:18 am: | 
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I'll third that! |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 01:17 pm: |
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Sean (Rocketman),
"Ten Kate will build you a Fireblade the same as Chris Vermulen's SB for around £20,000." I sincerely doubt that. Suspension, forks, shock, wheels, brakes? Same power output? Sorry no, not likely. MAYBE if you take away all the "HRC Kit" items. But then it isn't even close to being the same machine then is it? For the details please see...
http://www.tenkateracing.com/motoren-1000.php
Car to wager how much of that 214 RWHP results from "HRC Kit" components?
Sean, you cannot see from where the high costs come because you refuse to accept what engineering/analysis/tooling/test/development really truly cost. You banged your head against the same issue when we last discussed the cost required to produce a commercial road-going motorcycle. You just don't get it and apparently are unfortunately far too stubborn to give credence to the statements of actual professionals who do.
The first production B2 bomber cost tens of BILLIONS of dollars. I can't show you the parts nor tally that for you in mere material. I can tell you the rates and hours for engineering and tooling and test and development. But you likely won't believe me. The simple truth is that laymen simply haven't the slightest clue as to how much investment is required to successfully bring a class leading engineered product to fruition. That you are unable to see it is perfectly normal and very much expected. That you stubbornly refuse to accept expert testimony by professionals who know better is frustrating as hell.
Is anyone scratching their heads wondering how a "stock" 600cc supersport bike can lap at a race pace faster than the top factory FX machines? I can see givng them maybe a few tenths for cooler weather.track, but still I can't wrap my mind around it. Seems like the result of more Japan Inc smoke and mirrors. In the big run out of the chicane around the banking and down the main straight, the factory supersport bikes were flying past the non-factory supported privateers like they were standing still. The privateers had no chance whatsoever to even stay in the draft. Smoke and mirrors, in my opinion, the Japan Inc teams are full of it in AMA Supersport and Superstock. Anyone who thinks those bikes are showroom stock is ignoring some very pertinent facts and the basic realities of physics.
But again the bottom line is that Japan Inc has most everyone strategically convinced that the only proper racing motorcycle is one which looks exactly like a street motorcycle. If you step back and think about it though, that is really really silly, except of course for true production classes, like Supersport and Superstock. And in those, except for removal of lights/mirrors/kickstand/passenger pegs, addition of safety wiring, tires, and closed-out belly pan, the bike should truly be stock.
Let the AMA Supersport and Superstock bikes be drawn from a pool of actual showroom stock motorcycles, not assembled from hand-picked factory parts and various racing parts. Those stock class machines should be left entirely untouched and raced as-is right off the showroom floor, stock engine/ECM, stock suspension, stock wheels, stock brakes, stock intake, stock exhaust, stock everything except tires! Put up or shut up Japan Inc. Enough with all the smoke and mirrors.
Anyone wonder why there were no trap speeds for Daytona this year? Why on Earth would anyone in this day and age run such a prominent race and not provide the fans with top speed data?  Would a "stock" 600cc Supersport class machine hitting 170+ mph maybe raise some eyebrows? Might the smoke begin to clear and the mirrors turn transparent to reveal that the emperor (Japan Inc) has no clothes?
How do you get 150 RWHP out of a "stock" 600cc motorcycle? 
Yeah! What LaFayette said! Bring back the old Grand National series! Heck yeah!  |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 05:36 pm: |
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Another legendary Rocket quote!
"Also consider, the motors that the current Superbikes are using are not that much more breathed upon than what comes stock to the customer. Nor do they require rebuilding after every race meeting, some going a full season without the need."
Man there must be a fast boat from Colombia to Great Britain these days! Rocket is waaaay up in smoke!
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M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 05:47 pm: |
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Yeah... Don't superbikes run about 210-230 or so HP?
I suppose though... it depends on your definition of what the term "much more" is... is...
(Message edited by M1Combat on March 17, 2006) |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 05:56 pm: |
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Pridmore's Jordan Suzuki last year made 195RWHP on a Dynojet with a Super"stock" "legal" motor straight from Suzuki Racing (yes, Michael Jordan gets the good stuff). And that's about a 10th place Superstock bike. Looking at the speed deltas between these bikes at Daytona, Mladin's Superbike is probably about 240HP at the rear wheel. But that's pretty much a "stock engine that probably won't need rebuilt all season".
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Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 06:36 pm: |
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Being that I'm Scott Jensen's kinda/sorta PR hack in AMA SBK - I'd love to know WHERE to find one of those "all-season" motors that will put more than 210HP to the ground.
Jensen has a race budget and even though he can get some pretty special goodies, finding one of those engines for less than $30-$35K would be a blessing.
In case you're wondering why Scott didn't make it to SBK or FX:
http://superbikeplanet.com/image/2006/ama/daytona/1/4.htm
(Message edited by slaughter on March 17, 2006) |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 02:20 am: |
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BTW... 1313, I hope it is clear I do not really hate you, although I do envy you.
I'm sure a great many others on this board would like to have gotten the chance to
sit astride the XBRR even for a moment. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 12:41 pm: |
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Hmm, the old Grand National series. I like it a lot. The races would be on all types of circuits, ranging from the Daytona 200 to sprint roadraces to TT to mile.
Start with FX bikes as the foundation. The rules are you can change the wheels and tires, the gearing, the bodywork footpegs and handlebars for different types of tracks. Nothing else.
Buell guys on XBRRs, Honda guys on CBR600s, Yamaha guys on R6s, Ducati guys on 749's! Sounds awesome to me, and I think I'd take an RR for this!!! |
Kuuud
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 01:30 pm: |
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Yea...Class C was definately the best!!! Those bikes and riders really were 'all purpose'. I remember the road races in the mid to late 60's where it was a combination of low-handlebar/full-fairing bikes and others with standard-bars and no fairings...right off the dirt track and racing side by side!!!
Bret |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 04:18 pm: |
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You banged your head against the same issue when we last discussed the cost required to produce a commercial road-going motorcycle. You just don't get it and apparently are unfortunately far too stubborn to give credence to the statements of actual professionals who do.
Well Blake I might be stubborn on that one, but I'm sticking to what I said in that thread.
Anyway, let me continue by offering an apology of sorts. I mislead the assembled gang when I said "Ten Kate will build you a Fireblade the same as Chris Vermulen's SB for around £20,000. In the right hands it would be just as capable of winning any Superbike Race".
I should have been more precise and said KT will build you a Chris Vermulen road going replica edit:(under news, click - read more) for around £20,000, and if you chuck away the road gear and take it racing it could possibly win a SB race or more. Check out the engine tuning. You don't get any HRC kit but how much less is capable is exactly the right question. Would you be prepared to argue that such a £20,000 machine in the right hands couldn't or wouldn't be a SB race winner?
If a stock ZX10R can finish in the top ten in BSB racing, what could KT's £20,000 CB1000RR do? That is the context I was talking in my above post. So why are some here trying to ridicule me for posting well thought out and constructive argument? Oh I get it LOL!!
Rocket
(Message edited by rocketman on March 18, 2006) |
Crusty
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 07:41 pm: |
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I'm just curious; how many £20,000 CB1000RRs have won a WSB race? For that matter, how many have even made the podium? |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 08:16 pm: |
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I am curious to see if R-man EVER admits he MIGHT have made a mistake.
Lets see, was that Honda guy dead or alive in 1998? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 08:42 pm: |
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Well Crusty, from HM Plant Honda's website, this is a 2005 spec Blade ridden by Karl Harris in last years BSB. Originally a stock Blade, Honda UK built it to this specification, so not strictly a works machine.
Honda UK CBR1000RR Superbike specification
Marchesini wheels
WP fully adjustable suspension
Brembo 4pad superbike callipers with Brembo Z04 pads
Brembo 320mm brake discs
Carbon bodywork including self supporting factory spec seat unit
Motec M880 fully programmable ECU
Translogic quickshifter
Motec ADL dash logger
Dataspares wiring harness
Harris Performance swing arm
Bora racing radiator
HUK rear suspension link
HUK designed and developed carbon airbox system with ITG air filter
05 kit inlet funnels
HRP adjustable footrest system
STM slipper clutch with kit outer basket
Arrow titanium con rods
Chris Mehew tuned engine (202~208bhp at the back wheel)
05 kit ACG
HRC kit gearbox with adjustable ratio’s
Full Range of AFAM sprockets
Despite being a development year for both Harris and Honda-Racing.co.uk, the determined Sheffield-based rider enjoyed huge success aboard the Honda UK-built CBR1000RR Fireblade including two podiums and a string of top ten finishes.
You can buy this bike for £45,000 but remember it is not far off the pace of a full works Blade, being a Honda UK built bike. For £20,000 you'd have to look at a privateer effort would be my guess, but the point still stands. What would Rutter, Haslam, Kyiorani or any other top flight rider do on one given how well rising star Karl Harris did?
Rocket |
Aeholton
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 08:57 pm: |
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You can buy this bike for £45,000 but remember it is not far off the pace of a full works Blade, being a Honda UK built bike. For £20,000 you'd have to look at a privateer effort would be my guess, but the point still stands.
You fudged your original price by more than 2 times. Point made in other direction if you ask me. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 09:06 pm: |
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Rocket, you're throwing a lot of smoke at me. I just asked a simple question.
Suddenly, a £45,000 bike which made a couple of podiums is the same as a £20,000 bike? why not just buy the £20,000 bike and save £25,000?
I don't know about you, but for me, £25,000 is a healthy piece of change.
Also, I don't know what the differences are between BSB and WSB, but does a bike and rider that podiums in BSB have a realistic chance of doing the same in WSB? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 09:39 pm: |
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Bruce, it's gone 2am and I'm tired, but here's a quick Google search. Unfortunately I couldn't find any exacting proof but take this information anyway you please.
Reading, Berkshire, June 11, 1998 --- The following press release was issued in London at 10:00 a.m. local time on June 11 (6.00 p.m. Tokyo time). Preceding the issue of the press release, the president of Honda Motor Co., Ltd., Nobuhiko Kawamoto, was involved in official talks at Downing Street with British Prime Minister Tony Blair and the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, Margaret Beckett.
Here you can read a little about Honda's 50th.
One article proves the 'dead' fella, president of Honda Motor Co., Ltd., Nobuhiko Kawamoto was in the UK during TT week 1998, and the other speaks for itself about Honda's 50th event at the 1998 TT.
Whether or not Kawamoto San visited Bushy's or not I can't say. I don't know if Tony put on a bbq either at number 10, but I think this proves 'Mr Honda' was present at the 1998 TT. Yes - no?
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 09:56 pm: |
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Crusty, it's the first bike I came across when searching. No I'm not Blake LOL. I posted the spec because it possibly represents the best bike you can buy that's not a factory bike. Is it so difficult for you to imagine a lesser and therefore cheaper available Fireblade to go SB racing with?
By the way. That £45,000 non factory Honda earned its rider a full works ride this season.
Dude where have you been? Often has been the case where the BSB wild cards have entered the British WSB rounds on their BSB bikes, and won. Walker, Hodgson and Toesland if memory serves. Hislop famously went faster around Donnington on his BSB Ducati 998 than Rossi did on his Moto GP Honda RCV211 the same year.
Rocket |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 10:51 pm: |
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"I think this proves 'Mr Honda' was present at the 1998 TT. Yes - no?
S. Honda was the founder of Honda, and he died in 1991. You said that Mr. Honda was in attendance at the race in 1998.
So, if the PRESIDENT of Honda was at the race, you should have said so, rather than Mr. Honda.
Sorry, I have you on a technicality.
But your point is well taken.
Go to sleep, R-man. Sleep well. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 10:55 pm: |
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Rocket, I don't follow BSB racing. Over here, it's almost impossible to learn anything about the state of British racing. I didn't know if equipment specs are the same for the two different series.
I do know that US spec Superbikes are quite a bit different from WSB spec machines. I also know that WSB spec Superbikes are faster than US spec machines, but that US Superbikes ran faster laps at Laguna Seca because they had Dunlops and Michelins, while the WSB bikes were restricted to using Pirellis.
So, where have I been? Well, I just finished a 3090.1 mile ride to Daytona and back. I got to sit in 85 degree (F) weather (29.5 degrees C) and watch some motorcycle racing. I saw $31,000 (roughly £17,715) Buells that were cutting lap times that were only a little slower than the factory efforts of Honda and Yamaha whose price has been estimated to be over ten times as much. The number is believable when you consider that the forks alone from one of the Yamahas cost as much as the entire XBRR. The Buells broke, but the cause has been determined, and Buell is working on a remedy.
After the race, I went to a party that was being thrown by a Buell rider who had two broken shoulders, a broken hip, a broken femur, five broken vertebrae, all his left side ribs broken and half his right side ribs, as well.
A few hours into the evening, Erik Buell and his wife arrived at the party and spoke openly and frankly about the bikes and the failures. He also compared some of his own past injuries with Nick's, and autographed a piece of carbon fiber from one of the XBRR fairings.
I am not impressed by Mr Kawamoto visiting the 1998 TT races, after Erik Buell sat in the seat beside me on the back porch and openly showed that he cares about the people who buy and ride his motorcycles.
My wife and I are seriously discussing how we might be able to attend the next round of races next month at Barber Motorsports Park, in Birmingham, Alabama (roughly 1200 miles from where I live).
(Message edited by Crusty on March 18, 2006) |
Mcgiver
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 11:51 pm: |
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Just for grins, what is the American value of 45,000 (with the funny L in front)? Brian |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:25 am: |
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About $79,000 right now. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 05:49 am: |
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>>>>he cares about the people who buy and ride his motorcycles.
That's an accurate statement. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 07:06 am: |
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Keep building the bikes; ignoring the naysayers; find us (the Buell community) a young hotshoe to pilot the XBRR; and I'm over the freaking top happy.
Crusty,
Just looked did a Mapquest from Leominster to Barber,,,close you get to me is 180 west on I-40. There's no logical way to offer you midpoint stopping arrangements.
I'm thinking a Barber race has potential for me too.
G2
(Message edited by bigdaddy on March 19, 2006) |
Smoke
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 08:15 am: |
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go to barber, you'll love the track, the racing and the museum. i'll be camping there, listening for the buell's coming around the track.
tim |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 09:49 am: |
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Will they be doing FX races at mid ohio this year?
If so, I need to organize me a group ride... |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:30 am: |
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Crusty, I applaud everything you say, and I do think it's wonderful that Erik turned out for y'all. Please understand, sometimes one has to give a little stick back when one is being beaten with a stick themselves.
British Super Bike runs very close to WSB, but no control tyres. BSB is regarded as the premier domestic series for SB racing in the world. That's not me talking. That's just a fact.
Rocket |
Jon
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 07:35 pm: |
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OK here's me talking...
"Do I look fat in these jeans?" |
Telewoodski
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:15 pm: |
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So are they doing the FX class at Miller Motor Sports this year? That's probably the only chance I'll get to see the XBRR this year. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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Yes, anywhere the AMA Superbike series is going will feature the FX class, with the possible exception of Laguna Seca AMA/MotoGP weekend.
However, since Yamaha is sponsoring that event and they race in FX and Superstock, I would expect Supersport to get eliminated if it comes down to it. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 10:29 pm: |
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REALLY wanna see Miller in person. Might swing the time off to pit for Scott Jensen again up there.
Sounds like an awesome place/layout/facility from all I've read.
Us folks are gonna be seriously jealous of the Utah-ans having such an awesome track up there. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 01:36 pm: |
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"I'm sure a great many others on this board would like to have gotten the chance to
sit astride the XBRR even for a moment."
heh heh heh . Yeah, Daytona WAS good .
There's one more floating around . |
Mutation_racer
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 11:24 pm: |
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soon i'll be seating on the one that i will be racing for my dealer liberty buell n.j., hope to have it for summit point and hope to see many buell fans there as well. |
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