| Author | Message | ||
     Gregtonn |
I don't think anyone thinks its the ECU hardware. Getting the 1s and 0s to do exactly what you want takes dedicated talent and experience. Exactly. Also when you take an electronic unit that was designed to control a ride-by-wire system, and try to adapt to a completely different system it becomes more than doubly difficult. Next when fueling and ignition are not perfectly tuned in a race engine you have combustion issues which can lead to abnormal stress, heat and catastrophic failure. Does that sound familiar? I ask questions for a reason. G | ||
| Fast1075 |
It is possible to seal a wet deck engine. There is a Puerto Rican drag racing team that campaigns a car powered by a Mercuiser 470 engine. It is turbo/alcohol/nitrous and runs deep in the 4's, eighth mile at over 160 mph. Power rings, and a little Hardblok. The head is one of Bob Glidden's finest. The tune is twisted. I saw the tell-tale on the boost gauge at 40psi. It launches so hard it wrinkles the air. (Message edited by fast1075 on June 27, 2014) | ||
| Hughlysses |
It launches so hard it wrinkles the air. Well-written, sir.  | ||
| Fast1075 |
Sorta back to topic, Early Gixxer engines suffered from poor midrange, and as a result did badly as road racers. The problem was with the intake ports. Savvy racers used Devcon to reshape the ports, not only smaller, but to get the correct shape. As Stevel discussed, If you look at the shape of the intake port, it needs to decrease in cross section as it makes the bend to keep the velocity up. Think of an hourglass shape.The geometry of the radius of the floor of the port into the inside turn is critical to get the air to smoothly make the turn. A head is made or destroyed by what you do to the floor of the port. Move the air swiftly, but keep it subsonic, because shock impulse and turbulence is a biatch. | ||
| Trojan |
Could you legally machine and press in inserts to accomplish the same thing (assuming they would accomplish the desired result)? Nope. You cannot alter the crankcases in any way  | ||
| Hughlysses |
Interesting- Pegram's skipping the AMA Superbike race at Laguna Seca and will compete as a wildcard in World Superbike: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/pegram-to-race -foremost-insurancepegram-racing-ebr-as-world-supe rbike-wild-card-at-mazda-raceway-laguna-seca/#.U7R Qs8Cqv-I.facebook Interesting- the article says magnesium wheels aren't allowed in WSBK so he'll have to run aluminum and he'll have to run a quieter muffler which we've seen on Geoff and Aaron's WSBK bikes. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Cool! | ||
| Gregtonn |
Will he have to run the WSBK ECU? G | ||
| Fast1075 |
It is a wild card entry. He will not win, he will not get torn down for inspection of engine internals. I doubt there was a SBK tech inspector watching the engine build. I'll bet his engine will have all the best bits that the IOM engines got, and that Geoff was talking about "coming soon" to increase the rev limits and change the power characteristics. Qualifying for superpole would be HUGE. Hell, making all the FP rounds without spewing parts, and finishing both races would be huge, and possible with the rumored "newly developed" parts. Ride the freakin' wheels off it Larry!!! | ||
| Riohondohank |
"Will he have to run the WSBK ECU? " What ECU is required? Currently both of Larry's bike have Marelli ECU's. | ||
| Trojan |
I'll bet his engine will have all the best bits that the IOM engines got I hope not, they didn't exactly stay fast or reliable did they. better to stock with what he has and at leaast be reliable for the race. He will not win, he will not get torn down for inspection of engine internals. You don't have to win to get torn down for inspection in WSb. The process can take random bikes regardless of finishing position, and if there is any rumour of cheating will certainly do so even for a wild card bike. What would that do for the reputation of EBR if he was found to be cheating after the event? far better to ride around at the back then get disqualified for cheating. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I hope not, they didn't exactly stay fast or reliable did they. better to stock with what he has and at leaast be reliable for the race. Yes, actually they did. I posted a link to the audio interviews with the two EBR riders from IOM. Mark Miller's DNF's were due to (1) a shifter bolt falling out because it hadn't been safety wired and (2) running out of fuel. They had problems getting the fuel to flow quickly from the main tank (frame) to the auxiliary under-seat tank during the necessary mid-race pitstops at IOM (which isn't an issue in WSBK). They were slow getting up to decent lap times in practice as they had problems setting up the suspension, but once they consulted Ohlins and followed their recommendations, things improved immensely. Miller claims the engines reliably turned WELL over 12,000 RPM (maybe close to 13k) and they didn't suffer an engine related failure on either bike in over 2 weeks of practice and racing. He was routinely passing BMW's on the mountain section of the course. That sounds like EXACTLY what the WSBK teams need. (Message edited by Hughlysses on July 03, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
He was routinely passing BMW's on the mountain section of the course. To be honest I find that very hard to believe for a couple of reasons: a. They only completed a handful of laps in practice and race. So 'routinely' probably means 'I passed a BMW once on the mountain'. b. Most of the BMWs were much faster than either EBR all the time. Without knowing who the rider was it means nothing. c. How do we know the BMW rider was even trying when passed? he could have been learning the track or cruising for all we know. No matter what the IOM failures were, they still failed in every race and practice session except one, so I would still not change my bike for the WSB race based on what happened at the TT. Miller claims the engines reliably turned WELL over 12,000 RPM Miller claimed the bikes were fast and reliable at the TT too, so I'll take a riders claims with a pinch of salt thanks. I'm not slagging EBR here, but think that it is prudent to keep the setup you have if it has been reliable in AMA racing. Neither the TT nor WSB bikes have shown that reliability yet so I would be very hesitant in adopting any of their setups for a wild card appearance. Also, it would give a useful back to back perspective if they were to race two differernt spec machines at Laguna rather than sharing the same setups surely? | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Matt, I'm sure at least some of the claims regarding the IOM effort were exaggerated, but Miller is really convincing with his boundless enthusiasm for the EBR. After reading Geoff's fairly depressing interview on their WSBK effort, it was VERY encouraging to listen to Miller absolutely rave about how great the EBR was at IOM it once was set up properly. He even goes on at length about how well the front brake works, and notes how it worked vastly better than it did just a few months ago when they competed at Macau. Also, it would give a useful back to back perspective if they were to race two different spec machines at Laguna rather than sharing the same setups surely? Very true. | ||
| Jscott |
The most interesting comparison at Laguna will be how Larry's Team handles the race versus the Italian Teams of Geoff and Aaron. | ||
| M2typhoon |
My .02... Let's compare WSBK and IOM for a second. How long are bikes at full song at IOM.. a loooong time. Nothing like WSBK. The amount of time an engine is at an elevated rpm rate is vastly more than a WSBK event where they have two long straights at the most while IOM has miles upon miles of wide open or close to wide open race track. If whatever they did to the motor made it survive at IOM, I'm sure it will survive WSBK. On the other hand, WSBK see's a more dramatic amount of rpm change, engine braking and shifting throughout the course of a race than one lap at IOM. | ||
| Classax |
The TT was actually more of a test in that the bikes are wide open at redline for much longer periods. Neither bike suffered Engine failures. Running out of fuel, loose shifter bolts, pinched hoses, clutch problems and sorting the suspension is what held them back. So I wouldn't be inclined to NOT use parts that DIDN'T fail. Seeing as how they haven't SMOKED an engine for MR. May since the old engine builder "quit" and Yates finally had one catch fire while backing it into a corner hard on the brakes after running it 4 rounds. I am not entirely sure we can say the RX engines have been unreliable in WSBK yet either. If its not set up correctly it can fail not as a result of design but as a result of the set up, in which case do you blame the machine or the tech? The RX hits the rev limiter at 11500 rpm. WSB is running theirs at 11800rpm. My bike is stock so it doesn't have the mechanical slipper the racebikes do( No worth the extra coin or maintenance for a street bike), but coming into a slow corner from a very fast straight using both engine and front brakes, banging down through the box being either very aggressive or very sloppy, you can go past the soft limiter and still spin the motor up past 11.5K with the rear not really hopping just kind of wagging. That's a novice old guy on the street bike, so I'm sure expert racers in or just past their prime, can treat them much worse. If they're awaiting parts that let them set the soft limiter at 12800 rpm that means the critical mechanical NE rpm for the design must be higher than that with by at least 8 to 12 hundred RPM. I'd be inclined to believe Mark since HE has actually ridden the bike, unlike a lot of people who are saying what they think it can or can't do. Seeing as how his split times in his final race at the TT would have put him in the top 20 had he not run out of petrol, as they call it over there, I can't say he or the EBR he piloted were exactly slow. I think the best course of action is to have Larry run the set up he's comfortable with. It is my understanding that his ECU is the same as the WSBK and they share data between the teams. Compare his times to Yates, and May vs what Corey is able to post in AMA trim. The only thing you can really compare between the riders is their trap speeds and telemetry. Lines, corner speed, and riding style will be to varied to do a lap time vs lap time comparison beyond the general who's quickest around the course overview. | ||
| Fast1075 |
If the engines used at IOM survived, and the same build model fails at SKB, I would look very closely at the cam chain and tensioner possibly failing at high rpm downshifts. Hope the brakes work out. Did anyone but me notice that SBK lists a 9mm vented and slotted rotor? Is this the one Cory tried, but didn't like? I like puzzles. | ||
| Trojan |
Seeing as how his split times in his final race at the TT would have put him in the top 20 had he not run out of petrol, as they call it over there, I can't say he or the EBR he piloted were exactly slow. The difference in speed and time between 1st and 20th at the TT is huge. Also the engine is held at high rpm for long periods at the IOM of course, but WSb engines need a different approach. They are constantly bouncing off the rev limiter in lower gears, banging down the gearbox for constant downshifts into corners etc, which is a different kettle of haddock altogether. If you can stand a completely off the wall comparison......industrial machine belts run at cosnatc speed for years with no problems. I know someone that spent months researching a replacment belt for his Buell and eventually found an industrial belt that was the same size/width/spec etc so bought one. It failed within 1 mile of fitting. As soon as he decelerated it snapped. The moral of the story (if there is one of course)..........running an engine flat out can sometimes be less wearing than varying load and speed...... | ||
| M2typhoon |
"which is a different kettle of haddock altogether." Sounds like a good fish fry to me... With the all of the things discussed here, engines blowing due to loosing a valve, the IOM bikes holding up better, the rigors of WSBK racing, one would think it would be the cam chain and tensioner.. I wonder how long would it take to develop a belt drive cam system?...hmmm.. when did the season start again?? (Message edited by m2typhoon on July 03, 2014) | ||
| Classax |
As I expressed sometime ago both May and Yates were know in the AMA for their flat track "back it in" style. We have seen video of at least twice where May appeared blow an engine going into a corner and Yates did on this last one as well. We know Corey West blew one at Daytona due to catastrophic over rev when his shifter was contacted by another rider. Both the WSBK guys are riding very hard as evidenced by recent crashes. Seems strange that May can't make a race or complete a practice and goes through a season's worth of engines, only to have the builder quit and then he completes the next two races at pace without incident. They are still not trapping nearly as fast as (I think) they should. Laguna will be a good chance to measure by how much. If they get to Laguna and they are trapping as fast or faster than Corey West, then, yeah, may be we've seen the WSBKs at their best and it just isn't close to good enough. On the other hand if Corey (or Larry for that matter) throws down what appear to be significantly faster trap speeds, its time to take a look at what the fellows from Italy are doing wrong. Sometimes the tribal knowledge that gets lost in translation gets picked up in the demonstration. (Message edited by Classax on July 03, 2014) | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
" I'm sure at least some of the claims regarding the IOM effort were exaggerated, but Miller is really convincing with his boundless enthusiasm for the EBR." He is convincing because he is enthusiastic about it? Thats some great logic... | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Damn, Hybrid, have you even listened to him? He's not a factory rider who's livelihood depends on promoting the bike. He's either a world-class actor and liar, or he's honest. I think it's more likely he's honest. | ||
| Gregtonn |
What ECU is required? Currently both of Larry's bike have Marelli ECU's. I don't know what ECU is required in Larry's situation. That was why I asked. To my knowledge all EBRs use Magneti Marelli ECUs (I'm not sure if they are the same unit) but some of them are programmed by EBR for EBR. Hopefully that is what Larry will have. G | ||
| Riohondohank |
Only one of Cory West's AMA bikes has the Marelli ECU. The other on has the 1190 RX ECU. | ||
| Jscott |
Maybe some of the US crew can assist the Italian team... | ||
| Classax |
Only one of Cory West's AMA bikes has the Marelli ECU. The faster one has the 1190 RX ECU. Fixed it for you...  | ||
| Trojan |
What ECU is required? Currently both of Larry's bike have Marelli ECU's. They can run whatever ECU they like for WSb competition this year. Next year it will have to be one from an approved list and they will have to 'share' software with other teams using the same equipment 3 times a year (whatever good that will do). It is supposed to make sure that the richer teasm don't get an advantage, but of course they'll get around it pretty easily as by the time they have to share software it will be out of date and they will move on to their latest version. | ||
| Riohondohank |
"Only one of Cory West's AMA bikes has the Marelli ECU. The faster one has the 1190 RX ECU. " Actually the reverse is true. | ||
| 46champ |
So Matt what ECU's are on the approved list? Or do we even know? Or is it subject to change? If a factory comes up with an in house ECU that is better that the defacto standard Marelli. Do they just have to share it with privateer teams that are running that manufactures bikes? |
